Future Irish transport museum

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Re transport museums in general, even being located in a major league tourist town is no guarantee of survival. Blarney once had a veteran car museum back in the 70s and more recently Killarney up to the early 00s. In the case of Killarney it was family owned and it was decided to auction off the exhibits, a hotel stands on the site now. Not a peep out of anyone in the town wanting to retain it there.

Official Ireland and Bórd Failte or whatever they're called now have a set idea what interests tourists (The Craic (TM), ancestry hunting, Book Of Kells, surfing in freezing water) A transport or any sort of technical museum isn't in there. 

Yes - get 'em in, send them to Blarney, Ring of Kerry and the Giant's Causeway, charge 'em plenty in Dromoland Castle, and away ye go. Next please! There's more to Ireland then little green leprechauns, Temple Bar and "Pattys Day".......

10 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

To add to that, I firmly believe there is an anti heritage mindset in the general population. Old things and old buildings are not looked fondly upon, just reminders of bad old days and poverty, a general unwillingness to reuse and repurpose old structures as it's thought to be too expensive.

It's seen as old, irrelevant, stuff for nerds - by a lot of people. Education needed!

10 hours ago, hurricanemk1c said:

We have industrial heritage, and plenty of it. It's just culturally determined as "British" and therefore doesn't fit into the post independence "everything British was bad" mindset of a lot of museums around the country. That affects not just railways but any industry of note that has been here

100% correct on all counts. Look even at a recent thread on this IRM board where the all-too-common myth that the British built all our railways - usually mentioned in a dismissive way - was referred to.

[Horsetan]

14 minutes ago, Brack said:

When I lived there (2001-3) I can think of some intact unused track in the middle of dublin next to a major tourist attraction, with surviving original stock and locos which mightve been restored fairly easily.

 

Guinness presumably not interested?

I was frequently in the same area between 1998 and 2003 (and may even have walked past you without knowing; who knows!?) and my cousin - at the time a junior doctor at St. James - kept telling me I was lucky not to end up as one of his daily patients since he often had to patch up those who had either been assaulted, stabbed, or otherwise injured due to general inebriation.

[Broithe]

Was the Killarney motor museum the Lucey one? That was originally in Port Laoise whilst he was still practicing as a vet, before retiring and moving off south west. I called there once, in the hope of having a look round, but he was on holiday and the housekeeper thought I didn't look trustworthy enough to be let in. Understandable. really...

It's not all black and white on the 'old stuff' front. I realised, during the lockdown, whilst I was trying to cycle every road as the radius went up, just how many roadside pumps were left. I initially expected there to be about a dozen, but I'm heading for three figures now. In the same size area in England, I know of four.

There is a similar higher Irish survival rate for things like wrought-iron field gates, milk stands, lime kilns, etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1IgMK3uJ3xIxafN0Y9ScYVvMhA5ZF7nvO&usp=sharing

https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzK7xj

 

[Galteemore]

10 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I was frequently in the same area between 1998 and 2003 (and may even have walked past you without knowing; who knows!?) and my cousin - at the time a junior doctor at St. James - kept telling me I was lucky not to end up as one of his daily patients since he often had to patch up those who had either been assaulted, stabbed, or otherwise injured due to general inebriation.

Yes, we lived in south Dublin from 1999 to 2002 and that little area could be an interesting part of town…..

[minister_for_hardship]

52 minutes ago, Broithe said:

 

It's not all black and white on the 'old stuff' front. I realised, during the lockdown, whilst I was trying to cycle every road as the radius went up, just how many roadside pumps were left. I initially expected there to be about a dozen, but I'm heading for three figures now. In the same size area in England, I know of four.

There is a similar higher Irish survival rate for things like wrought-iron field gates, milk stands, lime kilns, etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1IgMK3uJ3xIxafN0Y9ScYVvMhA5ZF7nvO&usp=sharing

https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzK7xj

 

I know of the locations of roadside water pumps, but the pumps themselves sprouted legs and walked off years before.

I do notice the wrought iron gates but also see similar gates after being unsentimentally driven over by tractors. With machinery increasing in size, these gates will sadly disappear also. Kilns have been demolished with gusto by "progressive" farmers over the years.

I'd say remaining features are only there because they haven't been stolen or they're not in anyone's way yet rather than any great love for them.

[Brack]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

I was frequently in the same area between 1998 and 2003 (and may even have walked past you without knowing; who knows!?) and my cousin - at the time a junior doctor at St. James - kept telling me I was lucky not to end up as one of his daily patients since he often had to patch up those who had either been assaulted, stabbed, or otherwise injured due to general inebriation.

I recall the gardai telling us to go a different way back to the flat than through fatima mansions one night... I think they were watching/staking out something. Likewise Dolphins barn could be hairy, and out inchicore way...

[jhb171achill]

18 minutes ago, Brack said:

I recall the gardai telling us to go a different way back to the flat than through fatima mansions one night... I think they were watching/staking out something. Likewise Dolphins barn could be hairy, and out inchicore way...

Those dolphins can be very dangerous all right...........

[Horsetan]

56 minutes ago, Brack said:

I recall the gardai telling us to go a different way back to the flat than through fatima mansions one night... I think they were watching/staking out something. Likewise Dolphins barn could be hairy, and out inchicore way...

My cousin's mental alarm bells went off when he found out I was walking from the flat in Bow Bridge Place, through St. James and into the city centre. I only did that because it was more reliable than waiting for a bus. I could have walked out via Heuston and along the quays as an alternative.

The other thing my cousin told me was never to park my Fiat Punto in Ballyfermot as it was unlikely I'd see it again if I did. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

My cousin's mental alarm bells went off when he found out I was walking from the flat in Bow Bridge Place, through St. James and into the city centre. I only did that because it was more reliable than waiting for a bus. I could have walked out via Heuston and along the quays as an alternative.

The other thing my cousin told me was never to park my Fiat Punto in Ballyfermot as it was unlikely I'd see it again if I did. 

You'd see it in the papers next day, on a scorched football pitch in some sink estate with a crowd of blue-bag-sniffers round it..... and it would be alight.............

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, Horsetan said:

My cousin's mental alarm bells went off when he found out I was walking from the flat in Bow Bridge Place, through St. James and into the city centre. I only did that because it was more reliable than waiting for a bus. I could have walked out via Heuston and along the quays as an alternative.

The other thing my cousin told me was never to park my Fiat Punto in Ballyfermot as it was unlikely I'd see it again if I did. 

Like many/most Cities and Towns, parts of Dublin's Inner City and surroundings are best avoided unless you like living on the wild side or a bit of excitement.

While Dublin Corporation did an excellent job between the 20s and 60s replacing tenements/poor housing with modern flats and housing. Some of the inner city estates de-generated into slums with many of the residents forced to live by their wits with little or no steady employment with some turning to petty or organised crime.

During the 30s 'newspaper boys' dependant on selling "An Phoblacht"  struck and took on the IRA before turning to organised crime and protection the so called "Animal Gang" that apparently survived into the 50s 

Like other port cities street pub and street fighting was not exactly unknown in Dublin my Father used to go into town on Saturday Nights in the 30s and 40s to watch men and women fighting in Parnell Street around pub closing time. Besides Festiniog and Welsh Highland Volunteers, Portmadoc was recommended as a good place for a weekend by some skinheads, 'always guaranteed a fight" in a certain pub on a Saturday Night.

Some people literally stole from their neighbours to survive, during the 1969 Maintenance Workers strike my father while on the picket line got to know an old guy from an inner city block who used to bum cigarettes from the strikers and asked him how he survived. "Its like this" said the old guy "if I see a radio or anything I can sell through a open door or window in the flats'  "I will grab it put it under my coat and sell it in 10-15minutes on Talbot St. 

Dad and I had some fun and games with Inner City urchin kids about 15 years apart, Dad had filled empty paint tins with putty and broken glass and put them on the back seat of car during strike. Some kids walked up and down with picketers while others opened car and stole tins of "paint". Kids never returned to picket line. I was doing maintenance work for Corpo. about 15 years later just before moving to UK, had an old Mini car with an isolation switch on the ignition, kids (10-12) must of pushed the car about 1/4 mile before giving up, no damage done. 

Hope the kids both me and my dad saw survived and made a better life for themselves, otherwise their and their childrens' future was likely to be pretty grim.

Yes Dublin is a very interesting town and some areas best avoided.

Marxist Lenist opinion piece over.

I suppose what continues to get me about these complaints about the lack of a National Railway Museum or Heritage Railways is the apparent expectation the the Government or someone else will fund/set up the museum, rather that get involved at grass roots level and follow the example of groups like the RPSI, Transport Museum Society, ITD and individuals like Derailed and groups that did not succeed but at least put in considerable effort and tried.

Edited February 21 by Mayner

[Mayner]

Dad and I had our Mad Max 2 moment on Crane Street on a bank Holiday Monday in 1985. Dad's car (another Mini) had been stolen from outside our house in Drimnagh missing for several weeks when we received call that the Gardai had located it outside the Guinness Brewery. A patrol car lead us to Dad's car before the Guards' high tailed it out of the neighbourhood! It looks like Dad's car was being used as a "Company Car" possibly by residents of the Marrow Bone Lane Flats. Their looks-outs or spotters realised what was happening as we tried to start/tow Dads car, a large gang appeared suddenly appeared out of no-where to stop us taking 'their car."

Managed to attach the tow rope attached and pull out into the middle of the road blocking a guy in a large Volvo that was between us and the approaching mob. The Volvo driver appeared to be mighty pissed to be put at risk but we escaped unscathed. It looks like the 'Company" had parked the car in the streets around the Brewery among other cars for several weeks without detection but ran out of petrol or forgot to move it before the Bank Holiday weekend.

Mini's were popular at the time Dad's 1st Mini was first stolen from the driveway of our house about 3-4 years earlier and found on the Dublin bound lane of the Naas Road at Kill with a broken drive bolt about a week later, I still believe that some one stole it to visit an Inmate in Portlaoise, it turned out to be a struggle to get it home we had stored petrol in lubricating oil cans at work during a petrol shortage following the 2nd Oil Crisis. Unfortunately we did not clean the cans properly and ended up with a carburettor blockage on the way home. 

Been through thick and thing during the past 40 years, but nothing could beat my experiences in Dublin during the early 80s

[David Holman]

Guess every large city has its less pleasant areas. On our first trip to Ireland, we'd stayed in a wonderful castle/hotel for our last night, but then had to find our way over the Wicklow Mountains to the ferry at Dun Laoghaire. Well before the days of sat nav or mobile phones and we first got lost in the mist going through the mountains only to them find ourselves in the sort of council estates it was best not to stop to ask the way.

 We'd spent all our Punts and I was convinced we were going to miss the ferry. Finally got to the port and were waved on with some urgency as the last car and had barely time to switch off the engine before the ramp was up and the ship was away. The next ferry wasn't until the following morning...

 It was only a five day trip, but we saw a bit of everything from mountains to bog lands, sunshine and soft days, Mrs O'Leary's guest house and that fantastic castle hotel. Lovely people and (I've since discovered) wonderful railways too.

 Just needs a classic bit of preserved railway - preferably a good narrow gauge run as well, plus a tramway, etc. Not much to ask!

[Georgeconna]

12 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I know of the locations of roadside water pumps, but the pumps themselves sprouted legs and walked off years before.

I do notice the wrought iron gates but also see similar gates after being unsentimentally driven over by tractors. With machinery increasing in size, these gates will sadly disappear also. Kilns have been demolished with gusto by "progressive" farmers over the years.

I'd say remaining features are only there because they haven't been stolen or they're not in anyone's way yet rather than any great love for them.

So many wrought Iron gates clinging to life around the countryside,Barely noticed but still doing their job 200 years on.

there seems to be more awareness of these kind of things now. These gates should be used to brighten up the area but I would suspect they would 'Go Missing' 

Some interesting ones around my area, this one from 1842 complete with blacksmiths name stamped into it, Barry Quick, Buried in Castlelyons where he Smithed 

Edited February 21 by Georgeconna

[Galteemore]

Is that St Luke’s, Knockmourne? Great pics 

[Georgeconna]

Not that Church GM

Saint James' Churchh, AGHERN EAST, CORK - Buildings of Ireland

[Broithe]

Some of the gates do manage to keep their heads down.

 

And some get extended - twice.

Three times, if you count the additional side gate.

We're not going to keep everything, and sometimes people just aren't interested in some things to any great extent. There were many magnificent things in the past, typewriters, mechanical calculators, even VRCs, that aren't of much interest to 'modern people', beyond the transient curio value. As long as a representative selection survives, that is probably enough.

[Georgeconna]

Not that Church GM

Saint James' Churchh, AGHERN EAST, CORK - Buildings of Ireland

Nice FB page dedicated to these,I have even visited some locations to see some lovely examples.

[minister_for_hardship]

On today's "someone should do something" news, Blenderville is brought up at a council meeting...

 

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/tralee-news/no-sign-of-tralee-blennerville-steam-train-coming-down-the-tracks-just-yet/a1367704916.html

[Horsetan]

15 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

On today's "someone should do something" news, Blenderville is brought up at a council meeting...

 

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/tralee-news/no-sign-of-tralee-blennerville-steam-train-coming-down-the-tracks-just-yet/a1367704916.html

Nothing will have changed in 25 years' time. 

[minister_for_hardship]

4 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Nothing will have changed in 25 years' time. 

"But until such time as we know how good or how bad the condition of the tracks and train is, we can’t make a decision."

Sadly nothing will, that bunch haven't a Scooby Doo.

 

[Horsetan]

4 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

"But until such time as we know how good or how bad the condition of the tracks and train is, we can’t make a decision."

Sadly nothing will, that bunch haven't a Scooby Doo.

 

It's abundantly clear they have no interest in commissioning or funding the survey they claim is necessary, so no decision will ever be needed.

Meanwhile, open season for any metal thieves who fancy lifting the rails and chairs, followed by stripping of the stock...

[Mayner]

19 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

On today's "someone should do something" news, Blenderville is brought up at a council meeting...

 

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/tralee-news/no-sign-of-tralee-blennerville-steam-train-coming-down-the-tracks-just-yet/a1367704916.html

Whatever way you look at it Kerry County Council have saddled the  ratepayers with a huge on going liability with the railway. The TDs and Councillors who made the decision to support the building of the railway have evaded responsibility for poor decision making and failure in the upkeep of the railway.

A commercial operator would expect the Council to cover the cost of restoring and maintaining the railway and its stock, and provide a PSO style grant to meet the difference between fare income and operating costs (including a management fee).

Obtaining adequate insurance to indemnify the Council against future liabilities arising from the railway would be a major hurdle to the council leasing or selling the railway to an enthusiast group. 

Irish Insurers are wary about insuring railway undertakings, CIE/IR self insures, the Waterford and Suir Valley used a UK insurer unable to obtain suitable insurance in Ireland, I

The Council operating the railway with paid staff (possibly employment training scheme) with volunteer assistance would probably be the cheapest/most economic option, with 'tourist businesses" that benefit from the railway paying a 'targeted rate". Back in the day local ratepayers guaranteed a 5% return on Tralee and Dingle shares and were required to make good operating losses, eventually the Council took over management of the old railway when it failed to make a profit, but the ratepayers were required to pay the dividend until the Free State government bought out the shareholders of the "Guaranteed Lines".

Nothing really has changed in Ireland over 130 odd years, Investors come up with schemes that can never pay their way, politicians make bad decisions and the ordinary tax payer pays.

.

[Newtoncork]

I can understand a local initiative like this causing a lot of pain for Kerry County Council. But you could argue that a national transport museum being a national and internationally important collection should be part of the National Museum of Ireland and funded centrally. After all the Dublin and Castlebar museums are also national collections. Museums Galleries Scotland are funded by the Scottish government and have locations across the country.

Maybe we're not thinking big enough for a transport museum!

 

[Horsetan]

Just now, Newtoncork said:

...Maybe we're not thinking big enough for a transport museum!

There's never been any problem thinking big in Ireland. The problem is obtaining the money after thinking big....

[Galteemore]

7 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

There's never been any problem thinking big in Ireland. The problem is obtaining the money after thinking big....

The besetting national weakness is generally talking big rather than a plenitude of cognitive activity 

[Flying Snail]

Given that it already has (some quite important) items from across Ireland, surely the most cost-effective solution for an "Irish Transport Museum" would be for the Irish Government to part-fund the Ulster Transport Museum under something like the Shared Island Initiative? 

Edited March 7 by Flying Snail

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

It's abundantly clear they have no interest in commissioning or funding the survey they claim is necessary, so no decision will ever be needed.

Meanwhile, open season for any metal thieves who fancy lifting the rails and chairs, followed by stripping of the stock...

Usual kicking the can down the road. Wash, rinse, repeat for next meeting.

[jhb171achill]

19 minutes ago, Newtoncork said:

I can understand a local initiative like this causing a lot of pain for Kerry County Council. But you could argue that a national transport museum being a national and internationally important collection should be part of the National Museum of Ireland and funded centrally.

……and therein lies the problem. Such an argument is 100% right - but a large critical mass of people at all levels have no interest whatever, and couldn’t care less! Sad….

[minister_for_hardship]

18 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

There's never been any problem thinking big in Ireland. The problem is obtaining the money after thinking big....

It's not even that. The money was there for the initial steam railway, and in a rich country now money shouldn't be a problem, but interest to keep it alive/interest in a reboot is the rock it founders upon. Always.

[minister_for_hardship]

27 minutes ago, Newtoncork said:

I can understand a local initiative like this causing a lot of pain for Kerry County Council. But you could argue that a national transport museum being a national and internationally important collection should be part of the National Museum of Ireland and funded centrally. After all the Dublin and Castlebar museums are also national collections. Museums Galleries Scotland are funded by the Scottish government and have locations across the country.

Maybe we're not thinking big enough for a transport museum!

 

Apart from a brief exhibition on travel posters at NM, the powers that be up in the NM haven't the faintest interest in railways.

Even in that exhibition, the emphasis was placed on the history of the tourist trade and the poster artists rather than the railways themselves.

[Noel]

Could the large old MGWR station complex in Athlone (ie disused now west of the river) one day be used to house a national transport Museum (ie with good rail access to Dublin and eventually in the future to NI via the planned reopening to Mullingar (aka the strategic all island rail review)? . . . and perhaps even be a maintenance and operating home for operating RPSI stock based in ROI. There was a lot of track and space there not so long ago. Large array of sheds and platforms, etc.

[DERAILED]

[Mayner]

52 minutes ago, Noel said:

Could the large old MGWR station complex in Athlone (ie disused now west of the river) one day be used to house a national transport Museum (ie with good rail access to Dublin and eventually in the future to NI via the planned reopening to Mullingar (aka the strategic all island rail review)? . . . and perhaps even be a maintenance and operating home for operating RPSI stock based in ROI. There was a lot of track and space there not so long ago. Large array of sheds and platforms, etc.

Probably best ask Mary O'Rourke or her sons who should be well able to pull the strings prominent local family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_O'Rourke

As Minister of Transport Mary was vehemently opposed to the 1990s proposal for a National Railway Museum at Mullingar which had a business plan, IE, RPSI & ITG backing and campaigned for the museum to be located in Athlone, then all went very quiet after the Mullingar scheme got the axe.

Main issue with Athlone is the large loco depot at the West end of the yard was demolished and cleared track lifted many years ago, Goods Shed and Old Loco depot different sides of the main running roads and small for modern use.

Don't ask about the cost of installing and maintaining a connection from either the Old Loco depot or the Down Yard to the main running lines, the Great Southern Railway Preservation Societies and Westrail lost their mainline connections and ended up with stock stranded when Irish Rail disconnected the loco yards at Mallow and Tuam from the main line.

[Mayner]

9 minutes ago, DERAILED said:

The smiling guy looks remarkably like a developer and would be FF politician I once worked for 

No interest in trains that I know of, specialty was financing hotels and apartments through BES (legal money laundering), but lost a lot of his empire (fortune) through paying inflated prices for development land before the GFC, but managed to claw a lot back when the dust eventually settled.

[Wexford70]

On 18/2/2024 at 5:19 PM, airfixfan said:

Fintown supported by money from the Gaeltacht and hear that they may not run this year!

My understanding is that they have no volunteers, all staff on state employment schemes. Nice people but a long way from any tourist traffic.

They even had EU funding to help restore Fair Maid of Foyers for operation but could not complete the project due to lack of funds.