Vandalism at Downpatrick

[seagoebox]

Colin, 

I know that many of the barrels of Harp and Guinness ended up in the army base at Bessbrook, the army sealed off the area until all suspicious barrels had been removed and made safe !

[K801]

 

In the US, lots of people volunteer to be security officers in there free time just to be legally tooled up. I'm all for it.  

[jhb171achill]

30 minutes ago, K801 said:

 

In the US, lots of people volunteer to be security officers in there free time just to be legally tooled up. I'm all for it.  

Could we offer that guy a room in Downpatrick station, rent free?

[David Holman]

 Appreciate the sentiment but, much prefer the scenario of military shows where folk dress up and display vehicles, memorabilia etc to having people tooled up with all manner of lethal weapons, not to mention the legal right to use them.

 Many Americans love their guns, but can't seem to see just how much of a problem they create.

[skinner75]

On 18/10/2024 at 12:30 PM, K801 said:

 

In the US, lots of people volunteer to be security officers in there free time just to be legally tooled up. I'm all for it.  

Looks like a Proud Boy clown to me

[James Regan]

On 25/9/2024 at 6:42 AM, Mayner said:

if so what could society/the community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager. 

Ah the old collective guilt canard. Some scumbag does some nasty s*&# and it’s everybody else's fault, in particular society. I’ve listened to apologists and enablers of lowlifes peddle this nonsense all my life. The guy was 16. He knew what he was doing at that age. He chose to do it. Thats it, case closed. 
 

Stop blaming everything else than the individual. It’s pathetic and absurd.

 

 

[LNERW1]

Everything happens for a reason. If you’re raised to respect authority, hard work and honesty, you will more than likely grow up to be a well-behaved, hardworking and honest person. If you’re brought up without being taught those lessons, then you won’t see anything wrong with destroying something for the fun of it.

Some old train probably doesn’t matter to the person who did this. I’m not yet 16 but being a teenager is difficult. There’s all sorts of stuff to navigate and if you haven’t been taught these things about how to behave and how to be respectful, etc. then, again, the thought process is probably “what’s wrong with breaking into that carriage, it’s not yours, it doesn’t affect you, it’d be good craic, the lads will call you a pussy if you don’t do it, sure it’s only a heritage railway they don’t have proper fences, it’s dead easy to get in”, etc. etc. etc. Don’t underestimate how upbringing affects behaviour. The environment in which you develop and in which you live has everything to do with how you behave.

[James Regan]

56 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

Everything happens for a reason. If you’re raised to respect authority, hard work and honesty, you will more than likely grow up to be a well-behaved, hardworking and honest person

Actually, vandalism usually happens for no reason at all, and reason has nothing to do with it. It’s a common slander of the poor that people who grow up in difficult situations turn out to be bad people but thats not true either. The vast majority of people who grow up in poverty are the most honest decent people in the world. On the other hand both Hitler and Putin grew up in solid middle class families with respect for authority, hard work and honesty and both turned out to be evil psychopaths. Being evil is something that is wrong with the individual and can’t be neatly blamed on environmental factors, such as poverty or poor parenting. As such, absent mental illness the individual is responsible. As you go through life you’ll get plenty of personal experience of this. Some of the worst jerks I have known have been well off.

[Broithe]

35 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Actually, vandalism usually happens for no reason at all, and reason has nothing to do with it. It’s a common slander of the poor that people who grow up in difficult situations turn out to be bad people but thats not true either. The vast majority of people who grow up in poverty are the most honest decent people in the world. On the other hand both Hitler and Putin grew up in solid middle class families with respect for authority, hard work and honesty and both turned out to be evil psychopaths. Being evil is something that is wrong with the individual and can’t be neatly blamed on environmental factors, such as poverty or poor parenting. As such, absent mental illness the individual is responsible. As you go through life you’ll get plenty of personal experience of this. Some of the worst jerks I have known have been well off.

I went to ten schools with a wide variety of social stratification. Whilst most generalisations will have exceptions, of course, I found a distinct tendency for the posher lads to be dodgier, perhaps from a feeling of being less vulnerable to authority. The extremes of variations in the girls was much less, to the point of being largely negligible.

I do think your surroundings have some effect, in both directions - the results can perhaps be steered a bit by yourself, but you can only work with what you have available.

My father had moved up to Dublin from Laois, finding work as a barman - then he took it into his head to join the RAF - we went to Scotland, then three years in Malta, with my first year of school there, then to the Cotswolds, like living in a picture on the top of a biscuit tin. Around England from there, then, most important of all, three years in Cyprus as a teenager - that made me what I am. Downhill from there, though - back to Lincolnshire - like being put into an induced coma...

After that, I accidentally went to an excellent college and worked in a factory that was like being in a sit-com* all day.

If we'd stayed in Dublin, I would be somebody else altogether. I often wonder about that.

 

At the poshest school I went to, pretty much the only lad I trusted for my year there was, like me, sent by the council, and the school put up with us, or they didn't get the subsidy money that we brought them. We were required to state what our fathers worked at. They weren't hugely happy with my father not being an officer, but they actually refused to record his father as 'farm labourer', glossing over it by describing him as a 'farmer', which looked so much better.

 

*If you can find any episodes of The Gaffer, with Bill Maynard, it is a wonderful caricature of the state of British industry in the 1980s.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

....*If you can find any episodes of The Gaffer, with Bill Maynard, it is a wonderful caricature of the state of British industry in the 1980s.

The Rover P6 never quite recovered from its depiction in that show....

[Mayner]

So  James Regan you publicly accused me of being an apologist and enabler of lowlifes because I posted 'what could the society/community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager.

Parental responsibility:

Although in Northern Ireland parental roles and responsibilities include to protect, maintain and discipline a child until they reach 18 https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities .

Apart from myself no one on this thread has raised the issue of parental responsibility for the upbringing and behavior of the 16 year old offender.

Perhaps this is reflective of a society where it appears acceptable for one or both parents to spend time in the pub and leave young kids to their own devices.

I grew up in a Corporation Estate in Dublin or next door neighbor's a relatively well-to do couple with a family of 15 kids were out most nights at the Greyhound races partying while thee older children brought up the younger ones.

The broader community:

My mother and father could not ignore what was going on and sometimes intervened when one of the neighbours older kids was left alone struggling to pacify a new-born baby or there appeared to be a disturbance in their house, and at a later stage when some of the older kids started experimenting with drugs.

The neighbours were embarrassed but grateful for my parents intervention and were considered a 'respectable' family despite their partying lifestyle.

I guess they could always afford to buy a round for the neighbours in the local pub and remain in high standing in the community.

Vandalism:

Like self-harm and suicide, vandalism can sometimes be a cry for help

A cousin turned to vandalism in their early teens possibly to draw his parents attention when his mother and father were pre-occupied in caring for a seriously ill child. Luckily his father asked him why rather than simply striking out and punishing him. As a result of which his father took him under his wing as a result of which he grew into a responsible adult rather than a troubled youth. 

Prison is too good for them.

Many of the kids in this part of the world who enter the Youth Justice system go on to and graduate from the adult prison system as a career criminal. Over 90% of inmates in the NZ prison system 91% have been diagnosed with long term mental health and addiction problems with a high re-incarceration rate 56%.

Our imprisonment rate is higher than the UK and almost twice that of Ireland and hasn't exactly acted as a deterrent with an increase in gang membership and violent crime in recent years. In on case we had a mother shooting at the Police to create a diversion to allow her teenage sons to escape from Police following a series of ram-raids on shops and stores in the Waikatgo https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ram-raids-hamilton-mum-admits-shooting-at-police-to-help-kids-escape-arrest/7OLSKGKQBVHCDGQB4YRM6UKAO4/

Some community lead initiative to reduce youth crime divert kids into sports and outdoor actives appear to be more effective and work out cheaper than sending people to youth or adult prison, but a politician 'talking tough' on crime is almost a guaranteed to be elected.

Am I an apologist and enabler of low life?

If you believe that I am an apologist and enabler of lowlife because I believe that parents have responsibilities towards their children until they reach 18 and that the wider community (family, school, health professionals, social service and police) have a role then I must be an apologist and an enabler.

Edited November 8 by Mayner

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, Broithe said:

 

 

At the poshest school I went to, pretty much the only lad I trusted for my year there was, like me, sent by the council, and the school put up with us, or they didn't get the subsidy money that we brought them. We were required to state what our fathers worked at. They weren't hugely happy with my father not being an officer, but they actually refused to record his father as 'farm labourer', glossing over it by describing him as a 'farmer', which looked so much better.

Recording the occupation as'farmer" rather than the actual occupation crops on my fathers side of the family.

Great Grandfather appears to have been a Scottish stone mason who later became a Gamekeeper on Garbally Estate outside Ballinasloe -Grandfather a Gamekeeper marries a farmer's  Daughter whoes father from a  Mannion was listed as a Coachman on an estate near Woodlawn who later is listed as farmer apparrently on his own land. The young couple move to an estate near Kiltimagh where my grandfather is listed as Gamekeeper.

The family move around the country as the old estates are broken up during the 20-30 eventually moving to Ballinascorney House a hunting lodge in the Dublin Mountains owned by Joe McGrath a relative by marriage, where my grandfather was listed as a "farmer" possibly on my grandmothers insistence. Grandfather was supposed to be an easy going guy not bothered about status while my Grandmother was very concious of her status as a farmers daughter.

Hopefully the 1926 census will help fill some of the gaps between Kiltimagh & Ballinascorney, my father spoke about the Dublin & Blessington Tramway running Model T Fords which potentially places their arrival before 1932, though he also spoke about seeing "Model Ts" on the Clogher Valley which would have been about the same time (The family lived for a short time near the CVR) 

[GSWR 90]

I am very supportive of taking a holistic approach to societal problems like this; however, the answer to dealing with vandalism is certainly not doing nothing, which seems to be the current approach taken by the authorities (PSNI/Youth Diversion Officer) and the children's parents. Whatever the reason why they might do this sort of thing, DCDR – a volunteer-run charity which has faced pretty extreme difficulties over the past few years – and donating members of the public are paying the price even though they did nothing wrong. 

According to a mutual friend that I have with the perpetrators, one of them said himself that he did it because he was bored; another is an Andrew Tate fan, which suggests a high degree of narcissism and arrogance and an extreme lack of empathy. The perpetrators have also expressed to their friends that they are very pleased that they likely won't face any repercussions for what they did. Contrast this with the 100+++ hours that volunteers spent scrolling through and recording CCTV footage, emailing/phoning/showing around the police, spending tens of thousands of pounds on security upgrades over the past few years, cleaning up broken glass etc, measuring and ordering five replacement windows, travelling to Dublin and back to pick up glass, putting up wood hoarding and making the three coaches watertight, repairing the broken door, making new tables, etc.

Edited November 9 by GSWR 90

[James Regan]

10 hours ago, Mayner said:

So  James Regan you publicly accused me of being an apologist

I shouldn't be surprised you put words in my mouth as you started your comments on this thread putting words into others mouths by commenting about how you found the hang them flog them reaction towards the perpetrators on this newsgroup distasteful. I don't see a single post advocating hanging or flogging in this thread but then I guess you have no problem projecting on others whatever you wish to imagine. 
 

To be clear I accused you of nothing. I said and repeat that I have listened to apologists and enablers of lowlifes spout this kind of nonsense. Whether you want to repeat their nonsense is up to you but then dont deny or reframe what you said and suggest I said that I don’t believe that parents have responsibilities towards their children until they reach 18 and that the wider community has a role. I said nothing of the sort. This statement is completely different from your earlier statement that 

I suppose the question to be asked is whether menal health or the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism at Downpatrick and if so what could society/the community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager. 

Lets be clear!

There’s two statements there - 1. the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism, and 2 what could society/the community have done differently
 

Either you dont understand the difference between those statements and your later reframing of them or you are deliberately trying to obfuscate them. Given you bring up a whole bunch of other issues like drug use and older siblings looking after younger ones and three year olds toddling around and how somebody paid for rounds of drinks, etc. it appears more likely to be the latter.

But let’s get back to the issue. Vandalism and personal responsibility. So who contributed to the vandalism. My answer is the vandal. Yours are literally to blame others - again your exact words - the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism. You have also projected on to the scumbag who did this your own experiences imputing parental irresponsibility, mental health and lack of community support with zero evidence of any of these things whatsoever. That says nothing about the culprit and a lot about you.

After all this are you an apologist for this behavior? As in my first post, i’ll leave that for you and others to decide.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Time for @BosKonay to get the pruning sheers out.

No simple cause nor solution when it come to delinquent behaviour.

You all need a group hug.

[LNERW1]

10 hours ago, James Regan said:

I shouldn't be surprised you put words in my mouth as you started your comments on this thread putting words into others mouths by commenting about how you found the hang them flog them reaction towards the perpetrators on this newsgroup distasteful. I don't see a single post advocating hanging or flogging in this thread but then I guess you have no problem projecting on others whatever you wish to imagine. 
 

To be clear I accused you of nothing. I said and repeat that I have listened to apologists and enablers of lowlifes spout this kind of nonsense. Whether you want to repeat their nonsense is up to you but then dont deny or reframe what you said and suggest I said that I don’t believe that parents have responsibilities towards their children until they reach 18 and that the wider community has a role. I said nothing of the sort. This statement is completely different from your earlier statement that 

I suppose the question to be asked is whether menal health or the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism at Downpatrick and if so what could society/the community in Downpatrick in particular childs parents could have done differently to support the teenager. 

Lets be clear!

There’s two statements there - 1. the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism, and 2 what could society/the community have done differently
 

Either you dont understand the difference between those statements and your later reframing of them or you are deliberately trying to obfuscate them. Given you bring up a whole bunch of other issues like drug use and older siblings looking after younger ones and three year olds toddling around and how somebody paid for rounds of drinks, etc. it appears more likely to be the latter.

But let’s get back to the issue. Vandalism and personal responsibility. So who contributed to the vandalism. My answer is the vandal. Yours are literally to blame others - again your exact words - the childs parenting contributed to the vandalism. You have also projected on to the scumbag who did this your own experiences imputing parental irresponsibility, mental health and lack of community support with zero evidence of any of these things whatsoever. That says nothing about the culprit and a lot about you.

After all this are you an apologist for this behavior? As in my first post, i’ll leave that for you and others to decide.

 

In fairness you used @Mayner’s post as an example of the apologist mentality or whatever you want to call it so I would say he has every right to feel attacked.

In reference to “hang them flog them etc.”, a previous incident of arson at a Scottish line prompted some distastefully violent expressions of anger from people on this forum: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/16141-flogging-is-too-good-for-them-/. Maybe it’s just me but the scenarios are a little too similar and point to a culture of nurturing young boys to become violent, misogynist, homophobic, racist young men. This is happening more and more around the world and is a problem far beyond railway modellers arguing on the internet. Stop being a keyboard warrior and find something proactive to do. I presume you are a responsible adult with the capacity to help out people younger than you.

Best wishes, 
LNERW1

NB: I will make no further posts on this topic. I strongly disagree with the opinions you are voicing here and I am distancing myself from this unpleasant spat

Edited November 8 by LNERW1

[Mayner]

Being the parent and caregiver of a teenager diagnosed with a mental health disorder, I am acutely aware of the challenges faced by the current generation of teenagers and found the knee-jerk reaction towards teenage crime expressed by some posters on this and the Boness tread distasteful.

I am a strong believer in parental responsibility towards their teenage children and that society has a role in their up bringing, which is consistent with both the New Zealand and Northern Ireland legal systems. 

The New Zealand legal system identifies the 'Absolute Importance of the Family in Youth Justice'

In both systems parents have legal responsibilities towards their children until they reach 18 and where the child's upbringing, health and all other relevant factors are considered in the prosecution and sentencing for a crime.

GSWR 90s recent post indicates that the 'authorities' and the childrens' parents are doing nothing in response to the vandalism at Downpatrick despite a number of different sentencing options being available some of which required the perpetrator to make amends to the victim.

In New Zealand the expectation in a similar case would be for the perpetrator (accompanied by parents and caregivers) would be required as a minimum to attend a restorative justice conference to apologise and to make amends to the victim or to carry out 'Community Work' if sentenced through the Court system.

As I stated before PW maintenance and renewals on some of our heritage railways are sometimes carried out by offenders on 'Community Work' under the supervision of a qualified PW ganger, some offenders later found full time employment as trackworkers on Kiwirail.

Spending several days or longer carrying out manual work on the DCDR would have been a good way for the perpetrators to work off their boredom and narcissist tendencies as part of a Restorative Caution or Community Work sentence.

Edited November 9 by Mayner

[James Regan]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

Being the parent and caregiver of a teenager diagnosed with a mental health disorder, I am acutely aware of the challenges faced by the current generation of teenagers and found the knee-jerk reaction towards teenage crime expressed by some posters on this and the Boness tread distasteful.

John, I thank you for your gracious apology for calling me out. You are a better man than many for that. 
 

As you have seen there is a lot of frustration about the lack of consequences for arson and vandalism both in Ireland and Scotland. It looks like some folks on the Boness thread voiced that frustration in colorful terms but I’m pretty sure no one really wants someone burned or hung for these crimes. There are a range of sentencing options that would be appropriate. Unfortunately, in these countries justice is not being done or seen to be done. Does anyone know the ultimate outcome of the Boness case for example? Two 32 year old men! A disgrace. I cant find it anywhere. 

 

Decent people just going about their hobbies and interests are fed up of the soft peddling.

 

Best

James

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, James Regan said:

Unfortunately, in these countries justice is not being done or seen to be done. Does anyone know the ultimate outcome of the Boness case for example? Two 32 year old men! A disgrace. I cant find it anywhere. 

 

Decent people just going about their hobbies and interests are fed up of the soft peddling.

 

Best

James

Police Warnings and Judges Sentencing notes are discoverable under the UK Freedom of Information Act once the case has been dealt with and closed by the Police or the Courts not exactly the most effective way of demonstrating that the system is transperant and that justice has been done.

Its possible the Boness case may not yet been dealt by the Courts and therefore not be discoverable under Freedom of Information.

In my experience prosecuting H&S cases (white collar crime) in Ireland and New Zealand it can take over a year for a prosecution case to be heard in the District Court, as a result of workload the system tends to become clogged up with public order and drink driving cases.

The offending a Downpatrick does not appear to meet the criteria to be heard at Crown Court.

The PSNI have a number of options to deal with the matter including a Restorative Caution which would require the perpetrators and their parents to apoligise and offer reparations to the DCDR for the damage done. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/youth-justice#toc-3

GSWR 90s post indicate that the PSNI and the offenders  parents may have agreed on a Diversionary Sentence which can vary from an Informed Warning  to sentences which require an apology and an agreement to take part in work to make ammends to the victim. 

GSWR 90s commented that the perpetrators felt very lucky to have got off without facing any reprecussions for their actions indicates that they may have got off with a Warning. 

Did the PSNI, DCDR and the parents  consider the offender taking part in some physical work on the railway?  and if not why not?

PSNI have a duty to keep the DCDR informed of progress throughout the investigation process and the rationalle behind the sentencing decision.

 

 

Edited November 9 by Mayner

[Robert Shrives]

This week I had a great day working with 4 lads who had been offered to the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Co for some volunteer work in school time as a way of helping them learn life skills out of the academic environment that did not suit them.  In cooperation of our outreach officer three other adult volunteers the lads worked cleaning a refurbished 1907 tin chapel that was a volunteer rebuild project. Also some work with a pressure washer working on the platform.    This all part of a 4E initiative : Engage, Educate, Experience and Excel.     The lads were good workers and despite the potential for being bored all worked well.    I did suggest that work we were all doing could be a start in ground works or pressure wash cleaning business as there was money to be made in cleaning- get a van and a washer and off you go. 

The teacher was pleased to see work done and lads in good order, he explained that the 4 were on the exclusion listing for behaviour issues and anything that got them out and about was good for them.  The area they come from has, despite being in a rural Gwynedd is an Industrial wasteland and carries a  large unemployed and drug dependency cloud. Anybody with get up and go -has just done that. What is left carries on happy with its lot and muggles along in what could be considered a downward slide.  So it felt good to offer another way but they need to want to make the jump themselves.

Next week I hope to work on more cleaning, moving bags of stuff and some education on painting.  

Erfyl had a younger  group from another school who worked on tubs and for the lads with the "attitude" some shovelling and pothole filling to burn off the energy- it is amazing how energy can evaporate ... but a good bit of work done.  The tubs will end up on a station and hopefully we can work out getting the younger gang to tend them, giving ownership might work in all our favours.

In short engaging youth in a world where experiences ( I would say positive experiences) are limited to near zero surely can only be a good way to add direction and support away from "mindless acts."

Robert   

    

 

 

    

 

  

[GSWR 90]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

GSWR 90s post indicate that the PSNI and the offenders  parents may have agreed on a Diversionary Sentence which can vary from an Informed Warning  to sentences which require an apology and an agreement to take part in work to make ammends to the victim. 

GSWR 90s commented that the perpetrators felt very lucky to have got off without facing any reprecussions for their actions indicates that they may have got off with a Warning. 

Did the PSNI, DCDR and the parents  consider the offender taking part in some physical work on the railway?  and if not why not?

PSNI have a duty to keep the DCDR informed of progress throughout the investigation process and the rationalle behind the sentencing decision.

 

 

DCDR stated on its social media that it would post updates regarding the vandalism when relevant, which hasn't happened yet. Based on the helpful link that you posted, most of the potential outcomes would require the perpetrators to contact DCDR, so I assume that no formal decision has been made by the PSNI/Youth Diversion Officer/whoever makes that decision.

Edited November 9 by GSWR 90

[Mayner]

On 10/11/2024 at 8:52 AM, GSWR 90 said:

DCDR stated on its social media that it would post updates regarding the vandalism when relevant, which hasn't happened yet. Based on the helpful link that you posted, most of the potential outcomes would require the perpetrators to contact DCDR, so I assume that no formal decision has been made by the PSNI/Youth Diversion Officer/whoever makes that decision.

The onus is on the PSNI to keep the DCDR 9the victim) informed of progress with the case  throughout the investigation, its not acceptable to keep the DCDR in the dark on progress or their decision making.

The wheels of justice turn very slowly its possible that a Diversionary Sentence requires the same level of proof as a Court Prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that an offender has committed a crime. The PSNI may have discussed Diversion as an option in a interview or meeting with the alleged offenders, their parents and solicitor but may still not have completed the investigation File, which may give the offenders and their parents that they will not be facing reprecussions.

While working in Ireland and New Zealand I had 6 months from the date of the offence to complete a Prosecution File and a further 6 months for our legal team or state prosecution service to make a decision to Prosecute.

Even in a seemingly open and shut case (admission of guilt, sufficient evidence a crime was committed & co-operative defendant) I found it challenging to complete a file within the 6 month deadline as a result of conflicting work demands.I would expect a PSNI Diversion Officer to be faed with similar challenges.

If a case progresses to Court takes approximately 3 months from the date the decision was made to prosecute to the First Appearance in court when the defendant is given an opportunity to enter a plea and if they have a decent lawyer request an adjournment, usually 6-12 months from First Appearance to a Sentencing Hearing if the enter a guilty plea or a lot longer if they plead not guilty and the case progresses to trial.

So potentially a minimum of 6 months for PSNI/Youth Justice to hold the offenders to account if the DCDR , possibly 1-2 years in the case of Boness with adult offenders who may already have a criminal record which is likely to progress to court.

 

Edited November 10 by Mayner