The possibility of a RTR 20ft wagon chassis?

[WT CLASS 2-6-4T No. 4]

What is the axel spacing for a 20' flat. Would the Dapol Co42 kit, Interfrigo van, chassis pass. This has axel spacing of 76mm, i.e. 19'. Although it doesn't have a sketal frame, this would not be noticeable under a 20@ container and costs €5.99 in Marks or £4.39 Hattons. Any thoughts anyone.

[Warbonnet]

RTR is all I ask' date=' do's not have to be to the exact detail of a prototype,[/quote']

 

It does have to have exact details for many others, as close as possible at least. I'd say it's all about striking a balance between the two that's cost effective too.

[UP6936]

I believe they're a 12' wheel base, WT

[Glenderg]

The interfrigo wagon is H0, and a wheelbase of 18' and 30' over headstocks.

 

I'm really impressed by Mayners etch profile, but i can't see it being cost effective for aul bubbles and hoppers and basic freight. (Is it 22' long?) It should stand alone for container freight, but both our ideas of the working frame and cosmetic details are the way forward it seems.

 

Personally, i don't think its worthwhile designing and prototyping a solution, the prestwin is hard to better for its price, and yee're silence on my unorthodox materials/methodology would suggest many are yet to be convinced. All i know is that it works beyond my satisfaction, and if I want to build 20 chassis for wagons, it's going to cost me 20 euro, not 140.

[David]

I have to say I'm astonished that the prestwin is not considered close enough to be used and if a completely accurate chassis is produced, then what bodies will be used with it? Any of the bodies currently available are designed with the prestwin in mind and will not fit.

[Glenderg]

I have to say I'm astonished that the prestwin is not considered close enough to be used ..

 

Close in wheelbase and length maybe. The brake gear is so far off the mark it diminishes anything on top of the chassis.

[David]

So what's the alternative? Newly designed chassis will increase the price. And chaps are complaining about price.

[Glenderg]

Have you read the last 23 posts? That's what this discussion is about. Reducing the end cost to punter and providing a closer to prototype alternative.....

[Warbonnet]

Have you read the last 23 posts? That's what this discussion is about. Reducing the end cost to punter and providing a closer to prototype alternative.....

 

The sad thing is that a 'one size fits all' product is not going to satisfy everybody. Some would rather something crude for buttons, others (like myself admittedly) would rather something true to prototype as much as possible and would be prepared to pay the extra for it. However, can the market sustain two products and a halving of the target audience?

 

It's an interesting conundrum.

[burnthebox]

The sad thing is that a 'one size fits all' product is not going to satisfy everybody. Some would rather something crude for buttons, others (like myself admittedly) would rather something true to prototype as much as possible and would be prepared to pay the extra for it. However, can the market sustain two products and a halving of the target audience?

 

It's an interesting conundrum.

 

Have you read the last 23 posts? That's what this discussion is about. Reducing the end cost to punter and providing a closer to prototype alternative.....

 

Fantastic, to all modelers on this sit, especially where it comes to getting nearly, but not a prototype exact copy, something close that look's good on a layout and do's not include the bank manager, I don't have a clue when it comes to prestwin, brake gear, etch profile, and all that other mechanical stuff you guy's are talking about, if it look's good on the layout, that'll do, then bring it on,

[David]

Have you read the last 23 posts? That's what this discussion is about. Reducing the end cost to punter and providing a closer to prototype alternative.....

 

I have indeed and I can't say I believe it's possible to save much or at all on the cost of the prestwin. This thread is leading punters to believe that a wagon half the price and twice the accuracy is just around the corner and the fact is it is not. All the other bits will cost the same and at best you'll save a euro or two on the chassis, which to the untrained eye will look pretty much the same.

[Glenderg]

... which to the untrained eye will look pretty much the same.

 

Respectfully disagree with all, but especially the above quote. Burnthebox has indicated that he at least isn't the slightest bit bothered by "purism" and there are plenty who are happy with the prestwin. There are also quite a few who have at least partially-trained eyes and demand something closer to the real thing. I think it's achievable to produce a chassis in kit form with all the bells and whistles for around 4eu that would have the detail and dimensions of the real thing, but hey what do I know, I'm just an overly enthusiastic scratchbuilder.

[David]

Not including wheels or couplings I assume? These are included in the prestwin 7 euro price. Well, if you can produce an accurate chassis for 4 euro I'll be your first customer but I'll believe it when I see it. I don't mean to be negative or bitchy, I just can't see it working out.

[Glenderg]

There is a current drive to "design smart" - use your grey matter rather than your wallet, to solve design problems. The use of traditional methods and materials also requires thought - casting lead is easier than whitemetal and fine for use as small elements as buffers? Or is it?

Whats wrong with a styrene chassis and why the need for top hat bearings? Could a close coupling system be used instead of traditional couplers for rakes of wagons? Has anyone tried any of these?Has anyone bulk ordered / used H0 wheelsets? ...and so on...

 

That's the discussion I would like to have rather than the "betcha can/betcha can't" pantomime stuff.

[Weshty]

close coupling system?

 

Yup. Some guitar e string or brass wire, one looped, the other as a hook and you've an effective system for a rake.

 

I've seen it discussed in detail in some book or another, but can't think of it at mo.

[Glenderg]

close coupling system?

 

Yup. Some guitar e string or brass wire, one looped, the other as a hook and you've an effective system for a rake.

 

I've seen it discussed in detail in some book or another, but can't think of it at mo.

 

Bluesky thinking Des!

[BosKonay]

The dapol MRAs use simple fixed bars as does the D&M DeD's. For most people fixed rakes would be the ideal and if you can save a few euro removing nem pockets and couplers that will seldom uncouple you'll both save money and have a better looking train.

[Mayner]

Rchie

 

I am not sure whether your some Bluesky thinking is for producing some models for yourself or an attempt to undcut Dapol and corner the market Irish Wagon chassis kits.

 

Whatever Popeye probably had the best answer make up a set of plasticard patterns and cast the chassis in resin http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2508-Popeye-s-Workbench.

 

RTV silicone is a lot better than maula should get 15-20 castings per mould, some wonderful solvent fumes and a lot of work cleaning up, but not as monotonus as cutting out 15-20 sets of parts from styrene.

 

If you want the couplers to look the part why not try out a set of Smiths 3 link or Instanters wont drive you bugs coupling/uncoupling if you run fixed rakes.

[Glenderg]

Rchie

 

I am not sure whether your some Bluesky thinking is for producing some models for yourself or an attempt to undcut Dapol and corner the market Irish Wagon chassis kits.

 

None of the above John. I was trying to bring a bit of positivity to the thread, and it's just gone horribly negative. Gonna bow out of this discussion and cut my own furrow quietly.

[Garfield]

RTR is all I ask, do's not have to be to the exact detail of a prototype,

 

Fantastic, to all modelers on this sit, especially where it comes to getting nearly, but not a prototype exact copy, something close that look's good on a layout and do's not include the bank manager, I don't have a clue when it comes to prestwin, brake gear, etch profile, and all that other mechanical stuff you guy's are talking about, if it look's good on the layout, that'll do, then bring it on,

 

With all due respect, this is the attitude which has led to us having to contend with 'ready-to-run' (and I use that phrase in the loosest of terms) locomotives and rolling stock which barely resemble the real thing, and for which we are charged a premium price... the producers know they can get away with throwing something together with as little effort as possible - and charge top dollar - "because the Irish lads will buy up any oul' *****". It's even more frustrating because 'doing it right' in some of these cases wouldn't cost them anything extra, other than a little time to actually plan things out properly.

 

 

 

Anyway, regarding the wider argument taking place here... I find it slightly bizarre/amusing that people are arguing over how much a prototypical 20ft chassis would cost to produce when people are prepared to pay over €70 for 'RTR' tin vans which look like they were squeezed out of a tube of toothpaste.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Garfield

[WT CLASS 2-6-4T No. 4]

Richie,

 

Been following this thread with interest and it would be a shame to lose your input. A lot of prospective modellers haven't the ECB, European investment Bank or World Bank to fund their efforts. Your ideas and knowledge can help to make the hobby affordable to many people who have an interest but not the funds to create a layout with rolling stock etc. from the RTR or ready to plant market. Keep up the good work and never mind the begrudger’s.

 

Walter.

[Mayner]

I could have said it differently my question to Richie about taking on Dapol as to bring a bit of reality to the discussion, rather than take a pop at Richie, his modelling ability or creatitivity. While the plasticard chassis really looked the part and is an ideal material fo scratchbuiding, I don't see hand or possibly profile cut plasticard chassis kit as a realistic option for batch or mass production.

 

The group has more or less established that unless someone is prepared to put up 40-50K a massed produced rtr model of an Irish wagon is unlikely, commissioning someone like Parkside Dundas to produce a plastic wagon kit is also likely to be expensive. So this leaves up with the Dapol Prestwin and the small range of be-spoke Irish RTR wagons and kits which given the size of the market are never going to be cheap.

 

The low cost and the huge variety of RTR available in the UK is mainly as a result of a battle for market share between Bachmann & Hornby, commissioners like Dapol, Heljan and Murphy Models have carved out niche markets where people are prepared a premium for what are mainly collectors items mainly unsuccessful early BR Modernisation Scheme and Irish diesels.

 

The best we can hope for is that the 50 plus year old Prestwin toolings hold up, Parkside have produced custom wagon and chassis kits for other suppliers, but a premium would apply to a smallish run of say bagged cement or a beet doubles.

 

I don’t see a plastic chassis as a viable option for a 4 wheel skeletal flat there is no place to hide a weight.

 

A 25654 steel floored flat is with the engravers, these were the first modern CIE container flats quite complex wagons with steel floors fold down stanchions and various tied down straps as they were built shortly before the twistlock was invented. I am finalising the 22’6” flat I first prepared in 2012. Both wagons are fold up and slot and tab assembly so soldering will not be necessary.

 

Both wagons will have the correct width frame and are suitable for 21mm or OO I would expect to release both wagon kits later in the year, to keep the cost down I will probably sell these without castings most of which are currently available from MJT in the UK.

 

 

22'6" Flat test build

 

Garfield's point about it being no more expensive to get right as wrong is only partially true, while there are a few horrors out there, producing an accurate model or a buildable kit takes a lot of additional time and money. I will probably get through on these wagons with one maybe two design revisions, but even with all the information in the world we tend to miss the blindingly obvious

Edited March 29, 2014 by Mayner

[Garfield]

Garfield's point about it being no more expensive to get right as wrong is only partially true, while there are a few horrors out there, producing an accurate model or a buildable kit takes a lot of additional time and money. I will probably get through on these wagons with one maybe two design revisions, but even with all the information in the world we tend to miss the blindingly obvious

 

John, I did say "in some of these cases..."

[scahalane]

I have to say John that looks very smart and there's a real sense of weight about it as well.

[Kirley]

In all the discussions about Prototype 20' Irish Wagons I don't think any reference was made about the one manufacture who actually did produce these wagons.

Of course it was that sadly missed Model Irish Railways who brought us WFI CIE 4 Wheel Flat Wagon.

 

I managed to pick up a nearly complete kit on ebay, all white metal casting.

 

[burnthebox]

In all the discussions about Prototype 20' Irish Wagons I don't think any reference was made about the one manufacture who actually did produce these wagons.

Of course it was that sadly missed Model Irish Railways who brought us WFI CIE 4 Wheel Flat Wagon.

 

I managed to pick up a nearly complete kit on ebay, all white metal casting.

 

 

Do's this mean there's a chance we may be nearer getting a RTR wagon, CIE or whatever wagon,

[iarnrod]

Any truth in the rumour that MIR might be coming back into the kit market?

[Garfield]

Do's this mean there's a chance we may be nearer getting a RTR wagon, CIE or whatever wagon,

 

Nothing's changed since you asked the same question earlier on in the conversation...

[burnthebox]

Well, at least I'm consistent,

[Weshty]

" producing an accurate model or a buildable kit takes a lot of additional time and money..but even with all the information in the world we tend to miss the blindingly obvious "

 

I think I might have chords and melody to go with that line John, no truer words ever spoken

 

Even after a 3rd or 4th revision, something ALWAYS escapes...

[Mayner]

Do's this mean there's a chance we may be nearer getting a RTR wagon, CIE or whatever wagon,

 

I had one of the original whitemetal flats and a bubble from around 1982-3?.

 

Don't forget low sales volumes was one of the main reasons MIR closed up. Most of the kits were upgraded, re-tooled from whitemetal to resin with improved detail and simplified assembly. A rtr model needs to sell in 1000s, resin 50, whitemetal and etched brass about half that amount

[iarnrod]

I think MIR closed up shop at the wrong time. At the time they closed, I think only the MM 141 and 181's were available. In fairness to MIR, the last few wagons they released before closure were actually pretty decent representations of freight wagons, and were streets ahead of their earlier releases. There is clearly a demand now for freight wagons with all the new Murphy Models loco's available. Obviously, people need to put their hands in their pockets and buy stuff, but if opinion on this board is anything to go by, modellers clearly want freight wagons to run with their loco's. It will be very interesting to see how many ammonia wagons, barrier vehicles and 42' flats actually sell when Weshty releases them.

[Blaine]

It was for personal reasons that MIR closed up, as much as anything else. Ian still owns all of the tooling so dont rule out a return in the future

[burnthebox]

Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge of MIR as I was'nt around at the time, but if anybody can talk to Ian ? considering he own's the tooling for MIR, then we may have some hope, I'm not expecting anything special to come from this but there's always hope,

[Warbonnet]

Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge of MIR as I was'nt around at the time, but if anybody can talk to Ian ? considering he own's the tooling for MIR, then we may have some hope, I'm not expecting anything special to come from this but there's always hope,

 

Thought you wanted Ready to Run?