CIE Palvan

[StevieB]

The final development of the 4w van was the Palvan, which looked very similar to the BR van of the same name. Now my question for the experts out there is did they mounted on a 10' wheelbase, as the H van, or were they mounted on the 12' wheelbase being introduced at the time? The recently introduced IFM model uses the latter but, compared with photos of the prototype, they look stretched!

Many thanks.

Stephen

[David Holman]

No idea Stephen, but Slaters do a nice 7mm scale version. The notes say they were short lived, mainly as they needed access to both sides. One would hope a 4mm version might be available somewhere.

[Warbonnet]

No idea Stephen, but Slaters do a nice 7mm scale version. The notes say they were short lived, mainly as they needed access to both sides. One would hope a 4mm version might be available somewhere.

 

Parkside do a 4mm kit. So easy to build that I even managed it! Mine is being kept in UK spec though...

[josefstadt]

The vans in the series 26001 - 26500, introduced 1964/5, had a 10' 0" wheelbase and were 16' 11" over headstocks.

[StevieB]

That information makes it look as if the IFM Palvan has been stretched a touch to fit on the Dapol 12' wheelbase chassis - strange.

Stephen

[StevieB]

Looking again at the photos on the IFM website, the model is numbered 27150, maybe a subsequent batch which was longer.

Stephen

[josefstadt]

Looking again at the photos on the IFM website, the model is numbered 27150, maybe a subsequent batch which was longer.

Stephen

 

Even stranger! While 27150 did have a 12' 0" wheelbase, this series of wagons (27101 - 27300) were 4-wheel flat wagons dating from 1970.

[Garfield]

As has already been mentioned, Parkside Dundas produce a kit of the BR Palvan (listed for sale at £9.00 + P&P on their website), which along with some styrene sheet and a bit of hewing with a craft knife, will produce a more accurate model of the CIÉ pallet van for less money.

 

http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_BRITISH_RAILWAYS.html

[Warbonnet]

As has already been mentioned, Parkside Dundas produce a kit of the BR Palvan (listed for sale at £9.00 + P&P on their website), which along with some styrene sheet and a bit of hewing with a craft knife, will produce a more accurate model of the CIÉ pallet van for less money.

 

http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_BRITISH_RAILWAYS.html

 

And here is an idiots guide on how to build one http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2474-Warbonnet-s-Workbench-Windowsill

[murrayec]

Nice one Fran

 

Nothing wrong with those modelling skills, when I saw that post first I bought a few of the kits, stored for a DARTless day of making!

 

What exactly needs to be done with plastic card and a craft knife to make this kit Irish?

 

murrayec

[Garfield]

And here is an idiots guide on how to build one http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2474-Warbonnet-s-Workbench-Windowsill

 

Stand by for the idiot's guide to making the Irish version... coming to a workbench thread near you (soon).

[murrayec]

Cool garfieldsghost

 

I must get the kits down out of the attic and I'll be ready...

 

murrayec

[Glenderg]

What exactly needs to be done with plastic card and a craft knife to make this kit Irish?

 

 

A square of styrene over the BR doors, and some ribs to match either of the photos above. Add paint, dirt, decals - done.

[Warbonnet]

7mm from Slaters also available...

 

[Warbonnet]

Other parkside kits like the 12 ton Vanwide will give you the ends as shown in Richie's second pic if you want to kitbash. Alternatively, you could buy a 2nd hand Lima, Mainline, Hornby or Bachmann van for a few quid and cut up accordingly.

 

[murrayec]

Excellent Glenderg

 

Every time I see photos like that, I think how scarce paint was in CIE!

 

murrayec

[Mayner]

Nice one Fran

 

Nothing wrong with those modelling skills, when I saw that post first I bought a few of the kits, stored for a DARTless day of making!

 

What exactly needs to be done with plastic card and a craft knife to make this kit Irish?

 

murrayec

 

The main visual difference is that the CIE wagons had sliding doors and the brake gear is simpler than BR. The sliding door and runners are easiest to sort out with some plasticard and micro-strip.

 

Its worth while checking out Brian Flannigan's Fliker site there seems to have been a lot of variety in door and end detail between individual vans. The Pressed Steel Company may have been clearing out its stock of end pressings after BR finished building the last of its traditional vans.

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/entry.php/57-Simple-21mm-stock-conversions

[patrick]

 

Just use the extra ends that come with the Parkside Dundas 12 ton BR van with the Pal Van kit and make a new door from plasticard. You need to do a little carving to make them fit.

[jhb171achill]

Beautifully painted too - very realistic!

[flange lubricator]

Currently working on coverting some Parkside Dundas BR palvans to CIE 26000 series palvans the CIE one had a number of different end pressings which I have tried to reproduce , Inspired by Patricks models of his Palvans and JHB pictures

[jhb171achill]

Whatever about wheelbase, my recollection of them in traffic, and I saw many often, was that they were all the same length, same in fact as a standard "H" van. There certainly weren't the more "elongated" ones which were to be found as versions of various types of wagons in Britain.

[jhb171achill]

And the brown of the plastic is just right for post-1970 brown!

[flange lubricator]

Both the BR and CIE one's had a 10'0 wheelbase the same as the standard CIE van but they were higher any pictures you see of loose coupled trains in thr 1970's the standard van made up the majority with the palvans dotted throughout the train .

[jhb171achill]

Yes, the height difference made goods trains look very un-uniform, especially when corrugated opens, the odd wooden open wagon, and the odd wooden van of GNR or GSR origin was thrown in. Add to that the box shape of a modern 20ft container on a 4w flat wagon, or a couple of bubbles.....

 

And this is before fertiliser bogies appear!

 

Then add in the ingredient of some brown, some grey!

Edited December 18, 2015 by jhb171achill

[Junctionmad]

What was the story behind cies palvans, where they a post 1970s freight modernisation idea. ?

[flange lubricator]

I think they were more a stop gap measure to handle pallets which were becoming a more popular way of transporting goods by the mid 1960's, interestingly enough.BR introduced their.palvans in the mid fifties and started withdrawal in the mid sixties , CIE began building their palvans in 1964/65 and they would all be gone by the late 1970's in favour of unit loads .

[Mike 84C]

Your vans look rather good flange lubricator, I did my solitary one by cross kitting with a BR plywood side van and finished with a H van as well. I did not do the X braced ends far to much carving off for me!

[flange lubricator]

Thanks for that , it was seeing your one that motivated me to get my finger out ! I wanted to do the one with the crossed braced end as I think they were distinctly Irish compared to the one with the corrugated ends I did three and ended up with two 12 ton vans which are very near to the GNR H van .

[jhb171achill]

The GNR equivalent of the CIE "H" van is very similar to vans built at the same time (1954) by British Railways, and a straight repaint is a good equivalent. Don't forget an "N" after the wagon number though, when in CIE livery.

 

The pallet van has more differences, but easy to alter, as demonstrated well here by others.

[flange lubricator]

Just putting the finishing touches to my CIE Palvans

[Glenderg]

Top drawer stuff Flange

[Mike 84C]

Congratulations FL they are top drawer

[Junctionmad]

lovely models Flange

 

I always get confused between the brown and grey liveries, did both exist together at the same time etc ?

 

dave

[jhb171achill]

All was grey, junctionmad, until about 1969/70, when increasing number of wagons were being "fitted". Had goods wagons been frequently repainted, the grey would have vanished quickly, as all-brown became the standard for all goods wagons, fitted or not. But compared with carriages they rarely saw a paint brush. I photographed a standard H van in Ballina in grey - but not only that, still with a (obviously pre-1962) "flying snail" on it, as late as 1977. So it hadn't been painted for 15 years.

 

By the time loose coupled trains ended, and thus all the old 4 wheel goods vans were set aside, at least a third of everyday goods stock was still grey. While most had CIE "roundels", even the the occasional one still had a "snail" to the end.

 

Needless to say, nothing brown ever had a snail, as the brown appeared long after the roundel had dos placed the snail.

[Junctionmad]

All was grey, junctionmad, until about 1969/70, when increasing number of wagons were being "fitted". Had goods wagons been frequently repainted, the grey would have vanished quickly, as all-brown became the standard for all goods wagons, fitted or not. But compared with carriages they rarely saw a paint brush. I photographed a standard H van in Ballina in grey - but not only that, still with a (obviously pre-1962) "flying snail" on it, as late as 1977. So it hadn't been painted for 15 years.

 

By the time loose coupled trains ended, and thus all the old 4 wheel goods vans were set aside, at least a third of everyday goods stock was still grey. While most had CIE "roundels", even the the occasional one still had a "snail" to the end.

 

Needless to say, nothing brown ever had a snail, as the brown appeared long after the roundel had dos placed the snail.

 

 

Thanks, my memories when I was photographing signals in the late 70s , was of mostly brown vehicles lain up in sidings everywhere. I never had a great interest in historical rolling stock per sae , its only now , revisiting parts of the network with the advantage of near limitless digital photography, that I nearly cry at all the missed photo opportunities I passed up

[jhb171achill]

I'm the same. I didn't travel as much as a few travellers here, or modern photographers like Chris P or the Wanderer, or Finnyus. However I did manage to get to some interesting places by train.

 

However, it also has to be said that all forms of travel are proportionally cheaper now, services on almost all lines are more frequent than before, and what obscure railway locations there were in the past are gone. So, today, it's easier to chronicle what's left.

 

That said, like you I know I could have photographed so, so much more.

 

The familiar often remains untouched by photographers, past and present alike...