thewanderer Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Evening folks, A few images of the MK3 transfer from Inchicore to Limerick. The set will transfer to Ennis at a later date for road transfer to the West Clare Railway at Moyasta for "preservation". Click http://smu.gs/1pxqinT to view. Enjoy, The Wanderer. Quote
heirflick Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) great pics and great to see that a few have been saved espically the push pull unit! Edited October 21, 2014 by heirflick Quote
Noel Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Evening folks, A few images of the MK3 transfer from Inchicore to Limerick. The set will transfer to Ennis at a later date for road transfer to the West Clare Railway at Moyasta for "preservation". Click http://smu.gs/1pxqinT to view. Enjoy, The Wanderer. Nice pics as ever. Thanks for posting. Are the mainline locos and coaches stored at WCR ever going to run again on a preserved line, or are they just going to be static exhibits? Quote
Railer Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Purely static I reckon which is a shame. I'd love a tour set up with 124 and those 3 Mk3s once 7146 is modified to work with the DVT. Quote
Noel Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Purely static I reckon which is a shame. I'd love a tour set up with 124 and those 3 Mk3s once 7146 is modified to work with the DVT. That's a pity. Are there any preserved broad guage railways based down south? All the good stuff seems to be happening up north. I'm totally out of touch with what has been happening in relation to preservation for the past 20 years or so, only catching up now via internet. RPSI seem to be doing really well. Hats off! When preservation 'specials' run on Irish Rail track, do they allow RPSI/ITG personal operate the locos or do they need to be operated by or with the supervision of IE staff? Quote
thewanderer Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 The trains are crewed by IE staff (Drivers / Guard) with a RPSI Ops Manager and on board train staff for passenger facilities. Quote
gm171 kk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Great pics Wanderer! I caught it at Dromkeen along with some passenger trains. Quote
minister_for_hardship Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The WCR would be better off investing in appropriate ng items. Quote
heirflick Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Great pics Wanderer! I caught it at Dromkeen along with some passenger trains. Quote
heirflick Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Lads - anyone know when the set will land at moyasta? Quote
thewanderer Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 I meant to try and find that out today when they are going to Ennis. I spoke to the guy concerned at least three times but the day job got in the way of me asking the all important question! lol. Quote
Deutschbahn Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I must say they're great shots. Especially 6105 passing under the bridge at Rosskelton. Nice video also gm171! Great catch. Shame I could not get out to see it. It will be interesting to see if there will be any photos of it being hauled to Moyasta on truck. Quote
Noel Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Its bizarre that IR wasted money on all the new 22ks when the mk3s had at least 15 years service life left in them. BR mk3s are due to run for another decade at least despite their introduction in 1972 with HST125. IR might have been wiser to spend the 'Celtic tiger' giveaway money they received in the 00s on track and signalling infrastructure and better timetables. They bought a fleet of powerful 201s only 17 years ago that are hardly used with many lying up. Crazy waste and shameful to see the mk3s being scraped instead of overhauled before they wasted money on the 22ks. Quote
Glenderg Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Mk3's were borderline structurally sound for 4'8". They were in the danger zone once engineers realised that an additional 5" were added to their width, without the calcs being done. Whilst i love them, they were unsound. And that comes from an outside IE consultant engineer, who i'd swear my life on. Quote
DiveController Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Mk3's were borderline structurally sound for 4'8". They were in the danger zone once engineers realised that an additional 5" were added to their width, without the calcs being done. Whilst i love them, they were unsound. And that comes from an outside IE consultant engineer, who i'd swear my life on. I agree with Noel. I had always hoped to see a high(er) speed network built during the Celtic Tiger, the only chance they'd ever have to do this. Most of the existing fleet capable of 100mph but on a tiny minority of the existing track, let alone trying to lay any new track. However, I don't know which is worse lamenting the loss of the Mk3s or IE not having learned from the Buttevant disaster re structural integrity of the coaches and running them all these years, luckily without incident,I think? Quote
StevieB Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Interesting comments by Glenderg on the structural integrity of the Mk3's - never heard that one before and they have been involved in some major incidents over the years e.g. Great Heck when a love struck idiot drove off the road and onto the track - no problem found with the coaches but a major programme of road improvements involving crash barriers at the approach to road over rail bridges - necessary but so unsightly. Stephen Quote
Railer Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Mk3's were borderline structurally sound for 4'8". They were in the danger zone once engineers realised that an additional 5" were added to their width, without the calcs being done. Whilst i love them, they were unsound. And that comes from an outside IE consultant engineer, who i'd swear my life on. How are they 5" wider? Our Mk3s are/were the same as the UK ones body shell wise except they have bogies for the 5ft 3 gauge and IE added plug doors that UK ones got retrofitted in recent years. If anything they should be more stable with the slightly wider base lowering their centre of gravity ever so slightly. The International set was bought straight from the UK but with new bogies fitted. Quote
Noel Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Mk3's were borderline structurally sound for 4'8". They were in the danger zone once engineers realised that an additional 5" were added to their width, without the calcs being done. Whilst i love them, they were unsound. And that comes from an outside IE consultant engineer, who i'd swear my life on. Hi Glenderg. Thanks, that's interesting. I had mistakenly understood the CIE Mk3s where structurally identical to BR Mk3s with identical loading gauge/dimensions, but 6.5" wider track gauge rather than wider bodies (excluding door differences and different electrics and internal cosmetics). I had understood that the wider gauge had given them a more comfortable ride and greater stability than their BR equivalents running on the narrower 4'8" gauge. You learn something new every day! The various private UK operators are still operating much of their original mk3 fleets at much higher speeds than IRs ever ran at. Was there structural differences between the original BREL built mk3s for CIE and the BR ones? Or perhaps it was the later CIE Mk3s built here under license? I was fascinated why our Mk3s had aged and been deemed end of life in contrast with the UK fleets. Many of our mk3s only saw 20-23 years of service which is nothing for modern coaching stock, and their operating cycles (i.e. usage) was low compared to BR stock. It still 'smells' of poor utilisation of past capital investments in stock. I wonder if poor maintenance or reduced major overhaul cycles had anything to do with the 'structural' integrity issues expressed by 'consultant' source rather than original build specs. Cheers. Noel. Quote
Railer Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) In 2004 IE bought a BR Mark 3 TRFK for use on the Push Pull sets and it's the exactly same size, just got new bogies. The reason our Mk3s are 100mph restricted are because of 1) our track standard 2) our signaling system and 3) 100mph is the 201's design limit well 105mph is. 071s have been known to exceed 90mph back in the day before they got the event recorders fitted to make up time when hauling Mk3s. Same as the CAF Mk4, they could do 125mph if we had better heavier standard track, better block signaling and faster locos. Edited October 23, 2014 by Railer Quote
Killucan2 Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 IE,BR mk3 are standard build no difference,same with mk2s. Quote
StevieB Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 It does make you wonder if Glenderg's source has got his facts right about the mk3's. Stephen Quote
Noel Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) IE,BR mk3 are standard build no difference,same with mk2s. Thanks. Any idea why then the IE Mk3s were taken out of service little over halfway through their service life? It also seems a poor waste of capital investment to have virtually put the 201 fleet out to pasture or light freight duties after only 15-18 years in service except for the few Cork/Belfast sets. I'm trying to understand what the economic cost benefit of buying the shinny new 22ks was, especially given their high maintenance cycle requiring a visit to Portlaoise depot every 48-72 hrs or is that an urban myth? That must cost a lot in terms of repositioning trips presumably during the night too. The turnaround times at mainline termini stations of 22ks would be quicker due to the avoidance of loco runaround times at places like Killkenny and Killarney, but hardly a significant cost in time, maintenance of the few passing loops or coupling/uncoupling staff costs. The need for EGVs with loco hauled trains would add a cost compared to rail cars, but one would have thought that would might only come into play when old assets reach their end of the operating life and are replaced by more efficient stock at that time. I can understand the cost/benefit of 22ks v loco sets if starting with a blank sheet, but given the large mk3 fleet and 201 fleet that already existed, it's hard to understand the premature scrapping. UPDATE: Apologies, I see this topic was already discussed at length in the past. http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2093-MK3-Scrapping Edited October 23, 2014 by Noel Quote
Noel Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 OK having watched the Hitler video on the other tread I now fully understand what happened and why the Mk3s were scrapped. Reason = Financial incompetence on the part of government, IE and consultants = Insane waste of public capital investment Quote
heirflick Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 OK having watched the Hitler video on the other tread I now fully understand what happened and why the Mk3s were scrapped. Reason = Financial incompetence on the part of government, IE and consultants = Insane waste of public capital investment ah ..correct and correct! Quote
heirflick Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 spoke to the West Clare gang - nothing happening this week with the move from ennis to Moyasta Quote
rebelred Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 The reason why the government threw money at IE to buy all those ICRs was because of EU rules, you could no longer allow raw sewage to be flushed on to the tracks & a minimum requirement for wheelchair access in each coach, the cost of converting 'old' stock v buying new stock ( taking in to account these new trains would eliminate guards, shunters, TTCs, turnarounds etc) then as a business case it made sense. In reality though......!!!! By the way those ICRs are far from fuel efficient compared to Loco hauled trains, you have an engine & generator under each coach running at full pelt, up to a certain number of coaches they are but anything from say a 6 piece & up, they are not. We mightn't like it but unfortunately the accountants are running the railway so heritage, nostalgia goes out the window Quote
jhb171achill Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 See how little anyone posts on railway enthusiast websites now - there's little these days to be interested in on either NIR or IE..... Or is it just me? Quote
Noel Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 The reason why the government threw money at IE to buy all those ICRs was because of EU rules, you could no longer allow raw sewage to be flushed on to the tracks & a minimum requirement for wheelchair access in each coach, the cost of converting 'old' stock v buying new stock ( taking in to account these new trains would eliminate guards, shunters, TTCs, turnarounds etc) then as a business case it made sense. In reality though......!!!! By the way those ICRs are far from fuel efficient compared to Loco hauled trains, you have an engine & generator under each coach running at full pelt, up to a certain number of coaches they are but anything from say a 6 piece & up, they are not. We mightn't like it but unfortunately the accountants are running the railway so heritage, nostalgia goes out the window Well they say the swiss have the most efficient railways in the world. But their W/Cs today still exit straight onto the track, in fact you can see the tracks through the bowl. EU land seems to have a paranoia for exceptionally high standards we can't really afford, and some strands of H&S have entered 'la-la land' at the cost of economic development. ROI and revenue is more important than nostalgia, but in IE's case it seems somebody gave them a big piggy bank so long term financial prudence went out the window and they rushed off to the toy shop and emptied the contents of their piggy bank - funded by the public. Ironically had the 'celtic tiger' not over heated and IE not spent the transport 21 money on rolling stock, we might have ended up with a better and more efficient rail network today. When money is scarce it tends to be more wisely spent. Quote
201bhoy Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 See how little anyone posts on railway enthusiast websites now - there's little these days to be interested in on either NIR or IE..... Or is it just me? Nope definitely not you. The only reason people still post a lot on this website is because they're trying to recreate the past... tbh I can't see anyone who is a child now looking back with rose tinted memories on the 22000s or the other railcars about. Thank god we still have at least some freight flows! Quote
Warbonnet Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Nope definitely not you. The only reason people still post a lot on this website is because they're trying to recreate the past... tbh I can't see anyone who is a child now looking back with rose tinted memories on the 22000s or the other railcars about. Thank god we still have at least some freight flows! The figures for here over the past year have doubled when it comes to postings etc (which was posted on another thread today) so I think you're right in that sense. Although I dont really model Irish my interests tend to be in the past for the most part too. However, there were people bemoaning the loss of steam once and thought the hobby would die with the introduction of diesels. That hasnt happened. They might not be your bag (and to be honest, not mine either) but I bet there are a few out there that would be into railcars currently on Irish rails. And as people grow up around them they will be sad to see them leave the rails one day too. Quote
aclass007 Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 The figures for here over the past year have doubled when it comes to postings etc (which was posted on another thread today) so I think you're right in that sense. Although I dont really model Irish my interests tend to be in the past for the most part too. However, there were people bemoaning the loss of steam once and thought the hobby would die with the introduction of diesels. That hasnt happened. They might not be your bag (and to be honest, not mine either) but I bet there are a few out there that would be into railcars currently on Irish rails. And as people grow up around them they will be sad to see them leave the rails one day too. I would agree with that. It's an age thing. What we experienced at a certain point in our lives. As an example, I was at the ITG gala at Downpatrick last week. I witnessed a number of young fellas who got very excited when the NIR 450 class was unexpectedly called into service..... Quote
Railer Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 They might not be your bag (and to be honest, not mine either) but I bet there are a few out there that would be into railcars currently on Irish rails. And as people grow up around them they will be sad to see them leave the rails one day too. I remember on the old IRN forums a few years ago there was on or two members very fond of the 2800s, and if a gun was put to my head and told to pick which DMU I'd be most interested in the 26/2800s would be my pick. As it is I have 1 very fine model of a 2600 in Arrow livery from D&M. Can't wait for the other 2. Quote
thewanderer Posted October 24, 2014 Author Posted October 24, 2014 Right back on topic. Tuesday, 10:40 Limerick - Ennis. Sadly I won't make it. Will anybody else? Quote
DiveController Posted October 25, 2014 Posted October 25, 2014 OK having watched the Hitler video on the other tread I now fully understand what happened and why the Mk3s were scrapped. Reason = Financial incompetence on the part of government, IE and consultants = Insane waste of public capital investment Sure it's the Irish way..... Quote
tonybonneyba Posted October 25, 2014 Posted October 25, 2014 Talking about money....... I forgot what I was going to Quote
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