The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[Riversuir226]

Have seen somewhere the theory that if the West Cork had lasted a little bit longer to coincide with the opening of Whiddy Island oil terminal, it just might have provided a lifeline for it.

 

Colm Creedon came to that conclusion, a few years after the closure and lifting of the line the oil company did look into getting the line relaid but the cost was too prohibitive.

[jhb171achill]

If Ireland had joined in the war, the Great Northern might have had V2's as well as V's.

 

 

 

Hahaha excellent! Probably right... and u boats as well as UG's....

[jhb171achill]

I heard that one about the Bandon line too, way back. But CIE, for their part, certainly didn't take it seriously.

 

Re the "troubles" in the 1910/20s, I don't think it would have prolonged the life of any line. Some years ago I went through the GSR and MGWR archives in detail and all the early closures followed a period of accountants super-analysing all the traffic receipts, coal and staff costs. In fact, I've a pile of this stuff right in front of me now, as I attempt to continue writing "Rails Through Connemara"... musty smelling oul shtuff.... The reality was that the lines concerned were hopelessly uneconomic and the Government not only had not money to prop them up, but no political will. The savings made by not having to compensate, say, the DSER, would have been a drop in the ocean. The stuff I have here now involve detailed investigations into the Passage line and the Muskerry system, the Kinsale and Macroom lines, and the Clifden, Achill and Killala branches. Even had the tooth fairy relaid their track (most needed it), the GSR knew full well that losses would continue to mount.

 

Many of these lines, arguably, should never have been built in the first place. Many were constructed with "Balfour money" - this in itself an indication of poor potential for remuneration, as the major companies would already have built them of their own volition if they foresaw any potential profit there. The reality was that there was never a chance of the worst examples anyway ever turning a penny, and after construction it proved indeed to be the case.

[Mayner]

I heard that one about the Bandon line too, way back. But CIE, for their part, certainly didn't take it seriously.

 

Re the "troubles" in the 1910/20s, I don't think it would have prolonged the life of any line. Some years ago I went through the GSR and MGWR archives in detail and all the early closures followed a period of accountants super-analysing all the traffic receipts, coal and staff costs. In fact, I've a pile of this stuff right in front of me now, as I attempt to continue writing "Rails Through Connemara"... musty smelling oul shtuff.... The reality was that the lines concerned were hopelessly uneconomic and the Government not only had not money to prop them up, but no political will. The savings made by not having to compensate, say, the DSER, would have been a drop in the ocean. The stuff I have here now involve detailed investigations into the Passage line and the Muskerry system, the Kinsale and Macroom lines, and the Clifden, Achill and Killala branches. Even had the tooth fairy relaid their track (most needed it), the GSR knew full well that losses would continue to mount.

 

Many of these lines, arguably, should never have been built in the first place. Many were constructed with "Balfour money" - this in itself an indication of poor potential for remuneration, as the major companies would already have built them of their own volition if they foresaw any potential profit there. The reality was that there was never a chance of the worst examples anyway ever turning a penny, and after construction it proved indeed to be the case.

 

Its interesting the GSR closed the Muskerry in 1934 the same year the Free State Government completed its final payment to the GSR in compensation for abolishing the Baronial Guarantee system.

 

The Muskerry was one of 41 railways (broad and narrow gauge) built under a system where the capital was guaranteed usually at 5% (in perpetuity) and operating losses guaranteed by the ratepayers in area served by the railway.

 

While the GSR did not hesitate to close uneconomic lines which did not receive a subsidy and the Balfour Lines, it would have looked bad closing a Baronial Line until the Government made the final compensation payment.

 

The GSR to have been much more decisive about branch line closures than CIE proposing to close most branches and secondary lines in 1939, including West Cork and remaining narrow gauge

 

The odd one is how the Schull & Skibereen survived until the 1947 coal crisis. One of the weakest of the Narrow Gauge lines, never made a profit taken over by the Cork Grand Jury in 1892 and later Cork County Council. Was the road in too poor a condition for motor vehicles or had Kingsbridge forgotten about it?

[jhb171achill]

Probably the road surface. jhb171 senior reported that on his first forays into rural western places, roads were just stone surfaced. The Achill line closure was actually delayed over two years, and a withdrawn passenger service re-introduced, as the local council complained to the GSR about the damage buses were doing to the road. Thus, a stay of execution had to be granted in order to allow the road to be upgraded. this wasn't only in the 1930s - the CDR had to retain the Donegal - Ballyshannon service until the end for the same reason. They had earlier applied to discontinue it.

[Broithe]

I've always like the clean, efficient look of the Q1, and, with it being a Bulleid device, it would seem reasonable that it might have formed part of a post-emergency rebuilding program...?

 

[jhb171achill]

Looks more like a hand gun than a loco!

 

Those things seem to always divide opinion; some love 'em, some hate 'em! they certainly were an odd looking item, as virtually everything Bullied is famous for was....

 

When BR were designing their standard classes in the fifties, they set on certain design features which would become the identifiable "house" standards - personally I thought they looked well. Had steam been retained by CIE, it is likely that a similar concept of a standard house style would have been adopted. It's probable that the UTA would have gone along with Jeep ideas, and possibly developed a standard class - which would have been suitable for most duties in the north - of 2.6.4.T which might have looked like a modernised Jeep, owing much to BR design. As for CIE, it's hard to tell, as they ditched steam earlier and had SO many non-standard types to pick ideas from, as well as a lot of varying types of traffic requirements. The "Woolwich" locos were well regarded by both Inchicore and loco crews - something like that would probably have been the norm for passenger work...

Edited January 10, 2016 by jhb171achill

[GSR 800]

Although to me, they looked like a bunch of belpaires put together, they were extremely powerful and reliable and they were built on the "austerity" period so it was "form follows function"

[DiveController]

Looks more like a hand gun than a loco!

Tender folds down for a grip on the model:D

 

The "Woolwich" locos were well regarded by both Inchicore and loco crews - something like that would probably have been the norm for passenger work...

I thought they had poor brakes that lead to problems if they were in charge of a heavy freight

[GSR 800]

Tender folds down for a grip on the model:D

 

Brilliant!

[Broithe]

Tender folds down for a grip on the model:D

 

http://airsoft.tiger111hk.com/p23096/NOB-Q1-Metal-Frame-.357-Spring-Revolver-2.5-inch-Version/product_info.html

[Mayner]

 

I was curious about these locos as the more I looked at the GSR/CIE diagram the more the design made sense.

 

I am not sure what Milne or the diesel faction would have thought.

 

Proposed conversion of Woolwich Mogul to 4-6-0 re-drawn from GSR/CIE weight diagram. The first impression is that the loco looks like a scaled down Lord Nelson rather than a Patriot.

 

The comparison with the GWR "conversion" of 43XX into the Grange Class of heavy mixed traffic 4-6-0 was striking, was Inchacore planning a light weight version similar to the Manor for the 16t axleload lines? Was the design of the 3 cylinder front end design influenced by Maunsell's Southern Railway Schools with a little help from Bullied? Maunsell's team on the Southern advised Inchacore on the front end design of the 500 Class and 402 the 1st and most successful rebuild of the 400 Class.

 

I would be interesting to build one and see how many people identify the prototype cool:

Edited January 12, 2016 by Mayner

[Horsetan]

The solitary P1 2-6-2T contained quite a few Woolwich parts - cylinders, parts of the motion, and driving wheels.

[GSR 800]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22113[/ATTACH]

 

I was curious about these locos as the more I looked at the GSR/CIE diagram the more the design made sense.

 

I am not sure what Milne or the diesel faction would have thought.

 

Proposed conversion of Woolwich Mogul to 4-6-0 re-drawn from GSR/CIE weight diagram. The first impression is that the loco looks like a scaled down Lord Nelson rather than a Patriot.

 

The comparison with the GWR "conversion" of 43XX into the Grange Class of heavy mixed traffic 4-6-0 was striking, was Inchacore planning a light weight version similar to the Manor for the 16t axleload lines? Was the design of the 3 cylinder front end design influenced by Maunsell's Southern Railway Schools with a little help from Bullied? Maunsell's team on the Southern advised Inchacore on the front end design of the 500 Class and 402 the 1st and most successful rebuild of the 400 Class.

 

I would be interesting to build one and see how many people identify the prototype cool:

Thanks for posting that up John! It really does look like a 800 on a more moderate scale.

 

A model would indeed be very interesting. Maybe one of the Brassmaster of the site would build one for posterity:p

Edited January 12, 2016 by GSR 800

[Maitland]

They'd have been better off buying up some of the SR N1 class - the same as N's but already 3 cylinder. What would be the advantage of using a bogie anyway? Apart from adding a couple of tons to the front end.

[Broithe]

They'd have been better off buying up some of the SR N1 class

 

Looks a bit high-tech to me.

 

[Mayner]

They'd have been better off buying up some of the SR N1 class - the same as N's but already 3 cylinder. What would be the advantage of using a bogie anyway? Apart from adding a couple of tons to the front end.

 

 

The GSR proposal to re-build the Woolwich into 4-6-0s seems to been for similar reasons to the GWR decision to rebuild 100 4300 Moguls into Grange and Manor Class 4-6-0s, to improve stability at speed by fitting a bogie and increase boiler power by fitting a larger boiler.

 

 

"Primarily goods engines but suitable for passenger trains. They work Galway passengers but are too overloaded to run fast. The boilers are to the British gauge (loading) and are too small for Irish requirements" 1948 Operating Department assessment.

 

Fitting a bogie would allow a bigger boiler to be fitted while keeping the axle load within acceptable limits. While a Manor was 16 tons heavier than a 4300 the Manor had a lighter axle load.

[Horsetan]

In short, new engines with very little of the originals incorporated. Useful for accounting purposes.

[GSR 800]

I wonder what the cost of rebuilding the woolwiches be compared to actually building a loco to that design and leaving the woolies?

[jhb171achill]

Looks a bit high-tech to me.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22122[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Is this one narrow gauge?

[Broithe]

Is this one narrow gauge?

 

I'm not sure, but I heard they were quite popular - at least, I was told they had several fans.

[josefstadt]

I'm not sure, but I heard they were quite popular - at least, I was told they had several fans.

 

[jhb171achill]

I'm not sure, but I heard they were quite popular - at least, I was told they had several fans.

 

[jhb171achill]

Just a little one from the 1930s...

 

Serious consideration was given to retaining the Achill line as far as Newport for goods and cattle traffic only when the branch closed in 1937. Two years earlier, the Clifden line almost got a goods-only reprieve also. The latter was due to the wear and tear lorries had on the then-gravel-surfaced road.

[Broithe]

The Rathdowney Review is published annually, with both current and historical features in it. An edition from a few years back claimed that there had once been plans for a tramway the four miles to Ballybrophy, though I've never found any corroboration for this.

 

It is plausible, as Rathdowney had a substantial mart in the old days, and Perry's Brewery could have provided a bit of traffic, too - apart from any passenger movements.

 

I've pursued this, and the National Library has a letter from Lord Castletown that refers to the proposition.

 

See page 26 here - http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/castletown.pdf

[jhb171achill]

It could be as you say a "proposition".

 

In dealing with the Achill and Clifden books, I encountered literally dozens of proposals for all manner of railways, broad and narrow gauge, and tramways - sometimes well researched and powers formally applied for, but more usually little more than bar-room banter. To list all would take the entire book!

 

There probably at least as many proposed railways as ones actually built.

[Broithe]

I wonder if the RPA/TII could be persuaded to reinvigorate it, as a rural Luas programme?

 

 

 

 

OK, I don't, really...

[jhb171achill]

If it wasn't powered by D16 4.4.0s, I would thcweam and thcweam until I was sick.....

[GSR 800]

What if.. The turf burning project had been a success, and diesel did not arrive until 1965-6?

[jhb171achill]

What if.. The turf burning project had been a success, and diesel did not arrive until 1965-6?

 

Being such an oddball thing, with a great many more operational difficulties than you'd think, they would at least be condemned to sidelining once spare parts - inevitably being at least expensive, at worst unavailable - would be needed.

 

Another 2 or 3 years of steam would have seen the same locos in normal traffic just stretched out a bit more, like they were in mainland Europe or the UK (or the Larne line!).

[jhb171achill]

With David Holman's "Arigna Road" in mind, the Waterford and Tramore at one time proposed a branch from about three miles out of Waterford to Dunmore East, a small fishing port. A layout based on three termini, Waterford (Manor), Dunmore East and Tramore would make a very do-able project for those who like me are short of space.

[jhb171achill]

Rack Railways and zig-zag reversals.

 

One of each of the above were at one time planned.

 

The Ballymena, Cushendall & Red Bay Railway had a one-time plan to bring their line down to Red Bay itself in order to unload iron ore for export at the pier there. Had that happened, would have had one of the most scenically spectacular, steeply graded, (and doubtless short lived!) lines in the country. It would have required several zig zag reversals, as seen in South America and some Indian narrow gauge lines.

 

In the Mourne Mountains there was a proposal as late as the 1960s to build a rack railway somewhere in the Mournes (I have the details somewhere) in the vicinity of the Silent Valley, for tourists. An Irish Snowdon Mountain line.

[minister_for_hardship]

With David Holman's "Arigna Road" in mind, the Waterford and Tramore at one time proposed a branch from about three miles out of Waterford to Dunmore East, a small fishing port. A layout based on three termini, Waterford (Manor), Dunmore East and Tramore would make a very do-able project for those who like me are short of space.

 

There was a convincing uk might have been fictional layout in RM a few years ago, can't recall where it was meant to be...but various people approached the builder when on exhibition 'remembering' having had caught a train there or having passed through by train!

[jhb171achill]

A more modern "might-have-been", probably of interest to those readers who don't yet suffer, as I do, from "Too-Many-Birthdays-Syndrome".

 

The driving trailer yoke thing at the DCDR, which to my endless amusement appeared quite soon after I had resigned from holding the DCDR purse strings! ..... ..... had this ungainly looking beast remained in NIR ownership and actually been put to use, what's the scenario?

 

In theory, push pulling with a 111 class on the Derry line, but as NIR discovered when they bizarrely introduced a separate "suburban" (red and cream) and "inter city" (blue and light grey) livery in the 80s, on a system that small each set gets all over the place. Thus, a set used on a morning return to Derry will often do the all stops to Larne that evening.

 

So - would this thing have become, presumably with a few "gatwicks", a genny van and a push-pull modified 111, (a) a spare "Enterprise" set, (b) a regular "Enterprise" set, or © a quirky local set which might variously turn up in Derry, Portrush, Larne, Bangor or Deriaghy Halt?

 

And if (b), would a Gatwick have been fitted out as a catering / first class vehicle?

 

Answers on a postcard....

[spudfan]

But shur twas done JB, so it was, so.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20120[/ATTACH]

Looks like some Lima would have come up with!