Prototype operation of models & layout design

[David Holman]

Recent correspondance about layout design has re-ignited a concern I've have for a while now, that [with the passage of time] there are a lot of modellers who can have had little experience of how railways ran in 'the good-old, bad-old' days of loose coupled freight. Indeed freight of any sort seems to be at a premium in Ireland, so anyone modelling the current scene is not really left with a lot to do methinks, though am sure that there will be those who want to prove otherwise & good on yer if you can.

However, unless you are old enough to remember pick up goods, parcels traffic, mixed trains and loco hauled passenger, it seems to me that this knowledge is going to fade if we are not careful. This was forcibly brought home to me a couple of years ago when exhibiting at a show in Sussex. None of my usual operators were available that weekend, but a couple of other club members kindly volunteered. What I didn't realise [but was soon to find out], was that they had virtually no knowledge of railway operation & had probably never done more than run their own models round in circles.

Come lunchtime, I said to them something like 'while I'm away, just take your time and shunt the pick up goods'. This drew rather blank stares, so I added 'run the train into the goods loop, then run round and swap wagons in the train for ones in the goods shed and sidings'. Keeping my fingers crossed that this shouldn't be too much of a problem, I left them to it. On my return 20 mins later [with a crowd 3 deep in front of the layout], it was to find them shuffling wagons, BY HAND,in front of bemused spectators, as they clearly had no idea how to manage a simple shunt. Indeed, even the term 'run round' was probably new to them.

After I'd calmed down, I realised that the issue was as much mine as theirs. It just hadn't occurred to me that they wouldn't know how a pick up goods would be operated. Extensive tuition followed throughout the afternoon - including running at the right speed, buffering up and thinking out what might be the minimum number of moves possible to organise the wagons. We perhaps forget that, as well as being highly skilled and responsible, railwaymen were also very intelligent puzzle solvers. As modellers, we might be happy to endlessly shuffle wagons around, but they were like as not on piece work and the sooner they got things sorted, the sooner they went home.

Since then, for exhibitions, I work to a very simple sequence, which sees each train do a very specific task & where freight is concerned, each goods train shunts just one particular siding [though Arigna Town only has two anyway]. This helps keep things moving for the public, but also helps operators get into a rhythm. Not fully prototypical, but then on my line, there would be gaps of several hours at times between train - which is clearly not acceptable.

At home, perhaps the perfect scenario might be the American basement empire, where a whole line, from junction to terminus is modelled and the 'way freight' is driven from one end to the other, shunting each depot along the way. For those of us with more limited space, then the 'terminus-fiddle yard' is the most basic option, with the fiddle yard representing the 'rest of the world' and trains running from it to the terminus. A continuous run can do the same thing, with a fiddle yard to supply a succession of trains running past a through station in both directions.

Now, if simply watching the trains go by is your thing, then fine, but for me, things take on extra dimensions if you can replicate what the prototype did. Maybe not an actual line perhaps, but at least representing the range of trains from the historical period you are modelling. Hence, a chance to do research & then a purpose behind what you buy and/or construct, so the layout takes on a real purpose and life of its own.

So, I do think we need to nurture newcomers to our hobby or, with only heritage railways and unit trains to watch in the real world, they will miss out on what is a very satisfying part of railway modelling. What do others think?

Edited December 21, 2015 by David Holman

[Weshty]

Super post, and pretty much applies to anyone who can't recall movements prior to 40 years ago.

A birdseye gif of a simple shunt would give a good idea of a sample shunt.

 

David, how do you achieve coupling and uncoupling? Hand of God or electro-mechanically?

[Horsetan]

This is something which also affects UK modelling to a certain extent, although the various writings of Bob Essery and Don Rowland (the latter has written extensively about shunting in his "Alpraham Sidings" series, published in past issue of Model Railway Journal) have gone quite some way to making up for the deficiency.

[David Holman]

Three link/screw link on AT, Weshty. Have used Dinghams and Kaydees in the past. Considered Dinghams, but the turntables preclude this as they are one way only. Three links I can cope with, screw links a regular cause of expletives especially when between two coaches or vans!

Alpraham Sidings was real state of the art stuff & all the more applaudable for it. Perhaps a bit too sophisticated for the likes of me, but them I'm more of a builder than an operator, even though I like to do things reasonably proper at shows.

[Weshty]

Abrhams sidings...wow.....

[Horsetan]

Abrhams sidings...wow.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDqJ4pdtvyI

 

Ah, ye're hooked. That's a good sign.

[Old Blarney]

Are we talking about something similar to this? I'm assuming the uncoupling is achieved by hidden magnets!!

 

 

The memory of the buffers clashing,the couplings becoming taut - a sound that was familiar to me from Kingsbridge Station.

[Garfield]

Are we talking about something similar to this? I'm assuming the uncoupling is achieved by hidden magnets!!

 

 

The memory of the buffers clashing,the couplings becoming taut - a sound that was familiar to me from Kingsbridge Station.

 

Looks like they're using Alex Jackson couplings: http://mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/alex-jackson-coupling-2/

 

They're discreet and seem to work well (complete with delayed action) when made correctly but I'm not sure I could handle making an entire rake-worth!

Edited December 21, 2015 by Garfield

[DiveController]

Some of the measurements seems critical to success and maybe easier to do in O gauge than OO?

[Garfield]

Some of the measurements seems critical to success and maybe easier to do in O gauge than OO?

 

Maybe. Although I believe the coupling was first developed for EM gauge...

[Noel]

Recent correspondance about layout design has re-ignited a concern I've have for a while now, that [with the passage of time] there are a lot of modellers who can have had little experience of how railways ran in 'the good-old, bad-old' days of loose coupled freight. Indeed freight of any sort seems to be at a premium in Ireland, so anyone modelling the current scene is not really left with a lot to do methinks, though am sure that there will be those who want to prove otherwise & good on yer if you can.

However, unless you are old enough to remember pick up goods, parcels traffic, mixed trains and loco hauled passenger, it seems to me that this knowledge is going to fade if we are not careful. This was forcibly brought home to me a couple of years ago when exhibiting at a show in Sussex. None of my usual operators were available that weekend, but a couple of other club members kindly volunteered. What I didn't realise [but was soon to find out], was that they had virtually no knowledge of railway operation & had probably never done more than run their own models round in circles.

Come lunchtime, I said to them something like 'while I'm away, just take your time and shunt the pick up goods'. This drew rather blank stares, so I added 'run the train into the goods loop, then run round and swap wagons in the train for ones in the goods shed and sidings'. Keeping my fingers crossed that this shouldn't be too much of a problem, I left them to it. On my return 20 mins later [with a crowd 3 deep in front of the layout], it was to find them shuffling wagons, BY HAND,in front of bemused spectators, as they clearly had no idea how to manage a simple shunt. Indeed, even the term 'run round' was probably new to them.

After I'd calmed down, I realised that the issue was as much mine as theirs. It just hadn't occurred to me that they wouldn't know how a pick up goods would be operated. Extensive tuition followed throughout the afternoon - including running at the right speed, buffering up and thinking out what might be the minimum number of moves possible to organise the wagons. We perhaps forget that, as well as being highly skilled and responsible, railwaymen were also very intelligent puzzle solvers. As modellers, we might be happy to endlessly shuffle wagons around, but they were like as not on piece work and the sooner they got things sorted, the sooner they went home.

Since then, for exhibitions, I work to a very simple sequence, which sees each train do a very specific task & where freight is concerned, each goods train shunts just one particular siding [though Arigna Town only has two anyway]. This helps keep things moving for the public, but also helps operators get into a rhythm. Not fully prototypical, but then on my line, there would be gaps of several hours at times between train - which is clearly not acceptable.

At home, perhaps the perfect scenario might be the American basement empire, where a whole line, from junction to terminus is modelled and the 'way freight' is driven from one end to the other, shunting each depot along the way. For those of us with more limited space, then the 'terminus-fiddle yard' is the most basic option, with the fiddle yard representing the 'rest of the world' and trains running from it to the terminus. A continuous run can do the same thing, with a fiddle yard to supply a succession of trains running past a through station in both directions.

Now, if simply watching the trains go by is your thing, then fine, but for me, things take on extra dimensions if you can replicate what the prototype did. Maybe not an actual line perhaps, but at least representing the range of trains from the historical period you are modelling. Hence, a chance to do research & then a purpose behind what you buy and/or construct, so the layout takes on a real purpose and life of its own.

So, I do think we need to nurture newcomers to our hobby or, with only heritage railways and unit trains to watch in the real world, they will miss out on what is a very satisfying part of railway modelling. What do others think?

 

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more. Personally, shunting and arranging pre 1970 goods and coaching stock in a realistic manner seems the best bit of operating model trains. It just makes it so interesting. Hence my personal fetish for chassis that can run smooth at ultra slow speeds without jerking or stalling, especially over point work. Post 1975 fixed rake formations of uniform braked stock and bogie stock require less operating, which was the whole point form a cost saving and efficiency point of view. Aside from the operating interest short wheel base wagons and shorter coaches generally look better on typical layouts and the radius bends that space limitations dictate. Unless one is lucky to have large space available, 75ft coaches and long wheel base bogie freight stock can look unprototypical overhanging track bends and short point work. There is no right nor wrong as we each have our own favourite era usually governed by nostalgia from our youth. I just feel lucky as a child that I caught the tail end of CIE's loose coupled mixed goods traffic era, and interesting pax traffic formations, that both require interesting operation.

 

As a child I used to spend hours watching stock being shunted in places like Galway, Waterford, Cork and small country stations. The noise, clanking, banging, and activity made the railways seem alive, but they also had long periods when nothing seemed to be happening. Having to sit at the right end of some passenger trains dictated which destination you'd arrive at, as some trains split at junctions on route. Some passenger trains had goods wagons attached at the end with a brake van. The smell in some country stations wafting from the pens at the cattle siding interspersed with GM notching was a cocktail. Personally speaking, it makes today's back and forth ICRs and DMUs seem rather dull to operate.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Noel

[Noel]

Abrhams sidings...wow.....

 

Yummie

[StevieB]

David

 

Assuming we are talking about exhibiting, to some degree it also depends upon your audience. Mr average knows not the first thing about railway operation, either ancient or modern, and gets very bored very quickly if something is not running. The nuances of run round and shunting are lost to him, which is a great shame. The likes of Iain Rice and Frank Dyer have written very eloquently about various aspects of railway operation, but even then you have to adapt to the model situation. You can't propel a rake of wagons into a siding and expect the shunter to apply the brakes! It's the same with model track, especially if you use ready to run. You lay it according to prototype practice without having exact copies of the prototype.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen

[Noel]

I don't have an exhibition layout and exhibiting doesn't interest me in the slightest. I only run models trains for fun and enjoyment but do like them to operate and look like the real thing underway. Personally I found having one or two trains on long loops that appear and disappear at different sections of the layout whilst carrying out prototypical shunting and in-station train operations quite enjoyable and seems to go down well with younger family members when they visit. There is always something moving or about to move. I have operated time lapsed time tables for goods traffic and pax trains. Whilst dropping wagons off at a through stations sidings it is nice to see other traffic passing through in the back ground at scale speeds. What I cannot abide is trains accelerating at >1g forces direct to start speeds of 25mph or staggering to that jerking and pulling stock, or worse decelerating at speeds that would cause blood shot eyes in the passengers.

[Glenderg]

What I cannot abide is trains accelerating at >1g forces direct to start speeds of 25mph or staggering to that jerking and pulling stock, or worse decelerating at speeds that would cause blood shot eyes in the passengers.

 

So you've said ad nauseum, and I think you've missed the point of David's excellent OP.

[David Holman]

Indeed, Stephen. Everything we do is a compromise. Autocouplings can be hands free, but are not prototypical and few people try to connect brake hoses. At shows, it is mostly about keeping things moving, but I do think it important to try and work in a railway like manner. So reasonable speed (but not too slow -shunting could be quite smart) but careful buffering up, with a full stop to couple up.

Always aim to have vacuum braked stock nearest the engine and ensure passenger trains are hauled by VAC braked locos.

A few years ago, I had the privilege of operating Trevor Nunn's East Lynn. Fabulous S gauge layout. Interestingly, all points and signals worked by the signal box operate from a hidden lever frame, but local points in the goods yard and on the wharf are worked by hand levers in situ, as per the prototype. Personally, I can live with the big hand from the sky and find it better than shuffling a train back and forth over a magnet to do my uncoupling. Kaydees and the like work very nicely for running round, but Alex Jacksons just seem like witchcraft to me!

The joy of the hobby is do do what we enjoy, feel comfortable with etc. So if folk are happy with a train set, that is fine, but I do worry a little that the knowledge of railway operation pre 1970 could be lost, because anyone born since then has not experienced it.

[murrayec]

Hi David

 

One of my modelling intentions is to inform people, I get to build what I want and then show it off, informing people that these things existed and this is how they were used. I have seen the pictures of your layout and the information you give the viewer is excellent, the viewer can get a fairly good idea of what existed and watching the layout- how they ran.

 

Recently at the Blackrock Show I spent 3 days in a room with a bunch of very nice Northern chaps running their splendid club layout, they, obviously they had their workings time table off by heart, they were beavering away on doing their thing with hardly any communication between themselves, and at times it looked like nothing was happening and the viewers left the room! But they were doing something, setting up the locos, moving stock into readiness for a train and other things. What I noticed was- no interaction with the viewers was the problem, if they told the viewers what was happening I felt they would have held their audience a lot longer and the viewer would get a better idea of how trains ran.

 

I have an N Gauge layout which sits on the coffee table, it's two outer loops with stations, fiddle yard and loco sheds off each loop, I run two passenger trains, 4 goods trains, and have 8 locos on the layout at the same time. The task is to set up trains from the yards and then run them out on the loops to eventually pulling in at the other station, then breaking down the trains into the yards and storing the locos in the sheds. There is endless possibilities and requires some concentration to achieve the goal set without hitches and within set times!! Train stuff. Well when my mates (not into trains) saw this they could not understand this, they saw a little train go around the loops and they had enough! No I said, here have a go at this- I set a task- move this to here, that to there, run that around the loop 4 times while taking that loco out of the shed and move them to there, when that is finished the 4th loop it comes in this station- well you get the picture- their hooked, now they keep hassling me to get the trains out for some fun

 

Eoin

[irishthump]

Hi David

 

Recently at the Blackrock Show I spent 3 days in a room with a bunch of very nice Northern chaps running their splendid club layout, they, obviously they had their workings time table off by heart, they were beavering away on doing their thing with hardly any communication between themselves, and at times it looked like nothing was happening and the viewers left the room! But they were doing something, setting up the locos, moving stock into readiness for a train and other things. What I noticed was- no interaction with the viewers was the problem, if they told the viewers what was happening I felt they would have held their audience a lot longer and the viewer would get a better idea of how trains ran.

 

 

 

That's something I've noticed too. I've no problem with prototypical operation at exhibitions but there needs to be something happening all the time if exhibitors expect to hold people's attention for any amount of time.

A small loop with a train constantly running will have more interest for the casual observer than timetable-driven scenic masterpiece that has minutes elapsing between each movement.

The type of operation that David describes in his first post is perfect if you want to keep a layout constantly on the move.

To drift off topic a little; this is where I think sound equipped stock comes into its own.

It allows you to drive the locos at protypical shunting speed without it appear TOO slow to a casual audience. You can also reproduce most of the action that goes with it like coupling, brake hoses, charging brake lines etc.

[Andy Cundick]

I use DG couplings from Wizard for all my layouts and find they work well whether narrow standard or broad gauge,Andy

[David Holman]

Certainly agree with the above comments & at shows there is something special about a continuous run that is well operated. At Tolworth recently, the Guildford Club had their immense Normandy Junction [0 gauge] running at least 4 trains at once all day & there was rightly a big crowd the whole time. My own favourites are Dainton Bank [even though it is GWR!] and Stoke Summit. The latter was very much my home territory & despite being just a double track mainline and goods loop [no station at all], the crowds were always at least three deep. I even saw odd person [pun intended] writing down engine numbers! The key to this layout was a vast fiddle yard, with [i think], around 18 tracks each way, each capable of holding a 13 coach train or 40+ wagons. Despite fairly basic scenery, the anticipation of seeing the signals going off made the brief wait for the next train worthwhile. There again, I can get just as much enjoyment looking at a well main small layout/diorama.

What I don't like are layouts that do not/are not run well & am sure we've all seen a few of these. As I've said before, things do go wrong [a drawer full of T-shirts at home for this], but I do ensure that everything works before I leave for a show & am not sure that is the case for everyone. Given the quality of modern RTR models, that seems fairly inexcusable. Hence every reason to run the layout properly and there is some superb stuff out there to enjoy.

Rant over!

[Andy Cundick]

The immortal words that will probably end up on my tombstone "It worked perfectly well at home".Andy.

[Glenderg]

When I was designing Arthurs Quay http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15166&d=1411154145

 

I specifically designed it to have inglenook properties so that a shunting operation could occur on front and back lines whilst having historical formations traversing the middle line.

 

I may or may not exhibit it, but for my own sanity it needs purpose and I've designed a scenario where you arrive on the middle line with one wagon. The wagon has to end up on the upper right siding to collect a previous cargo , with the loco in the shed for refuelling. Once both operations are complete, the loco has to shunt the wagon into the yard itself with the loco ending up at the front. In 11 moves.

 

I'm not precious about rulebooks in how it should operate, as no rail engineer in his right mind would allow a batshit crazy layout in the first place.

 

Having something dynamic and operational is why we all got into the hobby in the first place. Having the levers on a cobbled street move slowly as points are thrown and generally always having something going on is the key?

 

If I ever did a prototype of a station that required an exacting timetable of movements I could see the craic disappearing quicker than rat up a drain.

 

Just my 2 cents. R.

[Junctionmad]

I agree with Davids ( OP) post entirely, In Ireland especially we are rapidly loosing the race memory of how a loco hauled freight orientated network operated, far quicker then in the UK.

 

We are also loosing things like correct semaphore signalling protocols and operation, How many times do you see a proper signalled irish layout operated correctly. yet we have lost in the last ten years a huge amount of prototype situations, even in the UK quite large semaphore setups for example still exist

 

For those that believe they are " modelling railways " and not trains , it behooves us to try and operate our layouts as close as we can to real prototype operations, especially for nut jobs like me that tend to focus on a real station during a fairly narrow time period ( with some modellers license of course)

 

I hate " exhibition layouts " build to just run roundy roundy trains on the basis of " simple things for simple folk". its the ultimate fob off for railway modellers. I see these increasing at irish events and Im not happy !.

 

People need to study WTTs etc and build " layout time table tables: or at least a sequence of written down operations, in the prototype basically everything a loco did was timetabled and scheduled. The more we emulate the prototype the more we retain the race memory

 

for example shunting loose couple ( or fitted freight) was not a random series of shunts, trains had to be built, under the control of the guard . to minimise further shunting along the route. Goods trains didn't in general randomly set off around the country , they were carefully time tabled and " pathed"

 

 

 

MY own layout will be capable of being exhibited,in that the layout is " portable " albeit , it will take up a fair space , but whether I will or not is another question. To operate a layout like " Claremorris & Ballinrobe " with a regular train movement schedule, on a fully signalled layout tends to require several skilled operators, who actually understand how the prototype was operated , this is my experience is difficult to find

 

On a final point , Noel, in real life shunting was a " job" and one that had to be completed in typical irish conditions like p!ssing rain etc, No-one hung around and these locos tended to push stock at well above walking speeds , engine run rounds etc were often at 15mph .

 

If I ever did a prototype of a station that required an exacting timetable of movements I could see the craic disappearing quicker than rat up a drain.

 

I think any large layout , operated to its potential , particularly at an exhibition, , needs a "layout" timetable , other wise you just get chaos

 

Dave

Edited December 23, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

We perhaps forget that, as well as being highly skilled and responsible, railwaymen were also very intelligent puzzle solvers

 

actually no they weren't . what they had was a series of movements that repeated over days weeks, months and years and hence became common place. to the casual observer , it looked like a puzzle being solved on the spot, to the railwaymen, it was simply what they did yesterday as well.

[Garfield]

I agree with Davids ( OP) post entirely, In Ireland especially we are rapidly loosing the race memory of how a loco hauled freight orientated network operated, far quicker then in the UK.

 

We are also loosing things like correct semaphore signalling protocols and operation, How many times do you see a proper signalled irish layout operated correctly. yet we have lost in the last ten years a huge amount of prototype situations, even in the UK quite large semaphore setups for example still exist

 

For those that believe they are " modelling railways " and not trains , it behooves us to try and operate our layouts as close as we can to real prototype operations, especially for nut jobs like me that tend to focus on a real station during a fairly narrow time period ( with some modellers license of course)

 

I hate " exhibition layouts " build to just run roundy roundy trains on the basis of " simple things for simple folk". its the ultimate fob off for railway modellers. I see these increasing at irish events and Im not happy !.

 

People need to study WTTs etc and build " layout time table tables: or at least a sequence of written down operations, in the prototype basically everything a loco did was timetabled and scheduled. The more we emulate the prototype the more we retain the race memory

 

for example shunting loose couple ( or fitted freight) was not a random series of shunts, trains had to be built, under the control of the guard . to minimise further shunting along the route. Goods trains didn't in general randomly set off around the country , they were carefully time tabled and " pathed"

 

 

 

MY own layout will be capable of being exhibited,in that the layout is " portable " albeit , it will take up a fair space , but whether I will or not is another question. To operate a layout like " Claremorris & Ballinrobe " with a regular train movement schedule, on a fully signalled layout tends to require several skilled operators, who actually understand how the prototype was operated , this is my experience is difficult to find

 

On a final point , Noel, in real life shunting was a " job" and one that had to be completed in typical irish conditions like p!ssing rain etc, No-one hung around and these locos tended to push stock at well above walking speeds , engine run rounds etc were often at 15mph .

 

 

 

I think any large layout , operated to its potential , particularly at an exhibition, , needs a "layout" timetable , other wise you just get chaos

 

Dave

 

We'll have to introduce a 'Pompous Post of the Week' award just for this. Can someone nip down the shops and buy one of those little plastic trophies?

[Glenderg]

 

I hate " exhibition layouts " build to just run roundy roundy trains on the basis of " simple things for simple folk". its the ultimate fob off for railway modellers. I see these increasing at irish events and Im not happy !.

 

Well, at least they've built something.....

 

MY own layout will be capable of being exhibited,in that the layout is " portable " albeit , it will take up a fair space , but whether I will or not is another question. To operate a layout like " Claremorris & Ballinrobe " with a regular train movement schedule, on a fully signalled layout tends to require several skilled operators, who actually understand how the prototype was operated , this is my experience is difficult to find

 

It's always hard to recruit operators to a layout that doesn't exist, I find.

 

I think any large layout , operated to its potential , particularly at an exhibition, , needs a "layout" timetable , other wise you just get chaos

 

I was talking about the fun element of it not the minutiae of scribbling in notebooks and ignoring your audience. You know, having the craic, not taking it too seriously?

[Noel]

We'll have to introduce a 'Pompous Post of the Week' award just for this. Can someone nip down the shops and buy one of those little plastic trophies?

 

Guys its Christmas, can we all smile, and just realise we are really the same just wonderfully different. Keyboards can disguise the generosity of spirit that really resides inside human hearts.

 

Wishing everybody on here a happy and peaceful Christmas.

 

 

As "Ted" might say, railway modellers, "a great bunch of lads"

[Hunslet 102]

Junctionmad (Dave),thanks for your post,it is probably the most insulting post to most exhibitors and modellers alike and certainly damaging as far as encouragement for the hobby. Just ponder on my final word there 'hobby',that's what railway modelling is to most of us,including exibitors.By all means build your own layout to your own standards and requirements,I for one would equally enjoy viewing it as much as I would a roundy roundy at an exhibition,but don't slag off others efforts because they are not up to your certain standards.

[Glenderg]

Guys its Christmas, can we all smile, and just realise we are really the same just wonderfully different. Keyboards can disguise the generosity of spirit that really resides inside human hearts.

 

Wishing everybody on here a happy and peaceful Christmas.

 

 

As "Ted" might say, railway modellers, "a great bunch of lads"

 

I know you love going off-topic man, but this is extreme.

[jhb171achill]

I think the ample space for both. Personally I like to see something modelled accurately and operated accurately,ur I remember my own teenage layouts. Accurate they weren't, in any sense. I had a Hornby class 35 "Hymek" in BR blue hauling BR Mk 1s painted black'n'tan; this was supposed to be CIE. Most of it had more signals at all as pocket money was sparse. The track layout alone precluded anything remotely approaching accurate operation.

 

But I got immense enjoyment out of it, running inaccurate trains round and round and round and round.

 

Some prefer end to end "fiddle yards"; some of round and round, some prefer off-the-shelf models (as I did in the past, due to my lack of modelling skills).

 

Horses for courses. But to go back to OP's point, I think that it is vital that the operational procedures now long gone on the real railways, the understanding of the WTTs, mechanical signalling, and of course my own interest in accurate liveries is properly recorded so that anyone who DOES aspire to absolutely accuracy in recreating a window into the past, almost like a three dimensional history of a prototypical location, can do so.

 

In politicsor religion we often hear that the mistakes of the past must not be hidden under the carpet, or - worse - rewritten, the consequence being that dangerous theories will be less likely to gain momentum in the future if truth about the past is transparent.

 

We can hardly equate railway modelling with that type of scenario, but the principle is similarly that if a modeller really does gain enjoyment of their hobby by recreating absolute accuracy, there will be plenty of information available for them to do this. Meanwhile, others, probably the massive majority, will gain their own enjoyment by their own interpretations and methods.

 

Most of us of a certain age have heard of the late Drew Donaldson, whose O gauge models are now in Cultra. And yet, his layout was utterly devoid of scenery, and the vast majority of his models are painted CIE green, a livery which none of their class (in the majority of cases) ever carried. Yet, despite having seen it operate only once, it was fascinating.

 

Happy Christmas to all.

[Junctionmad]

Well, at least they've built something.....

 

 

 

It's always hard to recruit operators to a layout that doesn't exist, I find.

 

 

 

I was talking about the fun element of it not the minutiae of scribbling in notebooks and ignoring your audience. You know, having the craic, not taking it too seriously?

 

 

My experiences were based on visiting Scalefour shows a few years ago. I got a chance to operate a layout there one year, and thats where my experiences were based. My own previous previous layout which I dismantled in the 2004 was also instructive in how people struggled to operate layouts that were based on a real life station (a GWR station based on Bodmin)

 

It's always hard to recruit operators to a layout that doesn't exist, I find.

for a person engaging in a new venture yourself, I suggest no-one throws stones here Richie. we all start a new layout/venture with nothing,( but the odd CAD drawing and an ideas eh:D) With three house moves in 4 years, my recent ability too start ( or restart) has been seriously compromised. No more then you have applied your diligence to your new venture, equally I have undertaking as meticulous a research of my chosen layout as I can ( as you have slagged me for ) . If it takes 10 years to build so what , the fun is in the doing (and the planning, research , experiments etc )

Edited December 23, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Junctionmad (Dave),thanks for your post,it is probably the most insulting post to most exhibitors and modellers alike and certainly damaging as far as encouragement for the hobby. Just ponder on my final word there 'hobby',that's what railway modelling is to most of us,including exibitors.By all means build your own layout to your own standards and requirements,I for one would equally enjoy viewing it as much as I would a roundy roundy at an exhibition,but don't slag off others efforts because they are not up to your certain standards.

 

 

I did not comment on the " standard " , i.e. its construction , ( in fact by and large they were quite good, some even excellent) I merely pointed out the existence of layouts that were clearly designed for exhibitions use ONLY. these layouts often simply allowed a single or two train to circulate continuously on the grounds that that " movement " equalled interest

 

These are not layouts that an ordinary railway modeller would build as one would very quickly tire of such a layout.

 

furthermore I merely expressed my personal opinion, that I dont like these sorts of concepts, ( and I dont ). I prefer to see real layouts

 

,but don't slag off others efforts because they are not up to your certain standards.

 

I wasn't slagging anyone off, merely pointing out my opinion , on the fallacy of " movement equals interest " layouts ( at exhibitions ).

[Junctionmad]

I was talking about the fun element of it not the minutiae of scribbling in notebooks and ignoring your audience. You know, having the craic, not taking it too seriously?

 

SO you think a layout like Adavoyle Junction could be run just by stepping up to the controls. This was the type of layout I meant.

 

A roundy roundy ( and I DO NOT mean anything disparaging ) layout merely exhibiting passing trains, has its uses, in that it doesnt require any particularly skilled operators and allows them to chat to the public, But as I have said , its not something " i like"

[Glenderg]

for a person engaging in a new venture yourself, I suggest no-one throws stones here Richie. we all start a new layout/venture with nothing,( but the odd CAD drawing and an ideas eh:D) With three house moves in 4 years, my recent ability too start has been seriously compromised

 

To try and equate Irish Railway Models with the number of fictitious layouts which we've heard of for 18 months now, combined with the arrogant distain you have for exhibitors is disgusting.

 

You also insult three other members here, and the entire community who support it.

 

And we all have real lives too, don't try and pull that one.

[Warbonnet]

 

These are not layouts that an ordinary railway modeller would build as one would very quickly tire of such a layout.

 

furthermore I merely expressed my personal opinion, that I dont like these sorts of concepts, ( and I dont ). I prefer to see real layouts

 

 

 

I wasn't slagging anyone off, merely pointing out my opinion , on the fallacy of " movement equals interest " layouts ( at exhibitions ).

 

It's amazing how you go for sweeping general statement to 'my personal opinion' in the space of two sentences. You've slagged off a huge amount of modellers on this forum with your previous post for a start, with you superiority complex regarding signalling. Not to mention the model railway clubs who work hard to put on shows and build exhibits every year to appeal to both us enthusiasts and the general public alike. Do the general public get the horn over semaphore signalling and prototype paths? Not a hope. I reckon you could count on Bart Simpsons right hand how many people do on this forum and at our local shows.

 

If it flicks your switch then run with it. Fair play to you. But do not come on here and insult those who are not interested in it. This is not an arena that will tolerate that. Maybe bring up your sickening arrogance at the next show you attend and see how you get on instead of hiding behind your keyboard and being too afraid of telling people who you are behind the online persona.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Warbonnet