Irish Cement Bubble - "Concrete" Answer Required....

[Glenderg]

Gents,

 

Posting this on behalf of IRM as production is far more advanced on the wagon than expected.

 

I've been through hundreds of photo's but have yet to see one where the bubble was branded with the "Irish Cement" logo as seen on the curtain sides and bogied variant. Up until 2008 I know a lot of them still had the broken wheel and "BULK CEMENT" branding.

 

The question I have, and I need photographic proof, is - "Were the Cement Bubbles ever actually branded with "Irish Cement"?"

 

Rich.

[Glenderg]

Totally understand they would not look like the 'real' world if clean, but just personally speaking, I'd prefer clean white bubbles with blue logos having the option of weathering them oneself rather than factory enforced weathering.

 

We'll get working on how many are unweathered and weathered at a later date Noel.

 

The photo of the cream white bogie bubbles in the publicity PDF looked great and could look visually attractive on a layout.

 

Agreed, but we are talking about the 4 wheeled Cement Bubbles, as opposed to the Double Bogie Cement Wagon (above)

 

Here's the colour balanced version of that photo - The chassis is blacker than a steers tookus on a moonless night.

 

[Garfield]

Limerick Colbert by Finbarr O'Neill, on Flickr

[murrayec]

Hi Glenderg

 

Same as above, if you look closely one can see the two blue logo colours peering out through the caked cement;-

 

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww198/ttc0169/HPIM1792.jpg

 

Eoin

[Glenderg]

Cheers Eoin.

 

Myself and Garfield have been at this for a few hours now, and it's only that wagon that appears to have had the branding. It's the last in the series, so perhaps a test wagon, but the bulk of them had the broken circle, and a monumental amount of dirt. The hunt continues for definitive evidence!

 

Wanderer as always comes through...

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Glenderg

[Weshty]

And here's another one....same wagon though.

 

[Glenderg]

Update - we have three confirmed, and pics to go with it.

 

25199

25183

25171 (small vinyl version)

 

For those interested, I'll be doing a spreadsheet (I know, deep breaths) with all the running numbers, last known branding and so on. That way an informed decision can be made on what amount of the first runs of wagons are done in what branding. 1 in 12?

[DiveController]

For those interested, I'll be doing a spreadsheet (I know, deep breaths) with all the running numbers, last known branding and so on. That way an informed decision can be made on what amount of the first runs of wagons are done in what branding. 1 in 12?

Cool!

[Old Blarney]

There is a photograph in, Irish Cement 75 Years, of Bogie Tanker Wagons with the Blue Logo on them. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any high quality ones for the Cement Bubbles. Has anyone contacted Irish Cement to ask them if they Confirmation that they used this might help with:-

A photograph/s of Bubbles with Blue Logo?

A drawing/design for the Blue Logo on a Bubble Wagon/s?

Confirmation of their use of the Blue Logo on their bubble Tanks?

 

A polite telephone call asking for help can result in help. Oh, what about soliciting the knowledge of some of the present or former Railway Company employees?

 

Irish Cement 75 Years PDF

 

http://www.irishcement.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Irish-Cement-Celebrating-75-Years.pdf

[jhb171achill]

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only one with that logo. I'll delve and see what I can come up with.

[Kirley]

MIR where, I believe, the first to produce the Cement bubbles and provided the CIE or Irish Cement logos with their kits. I'm sure Ian and Co did extensive research before producing these decals, perhaps they could assist?

[Garfield]

There is a photograph in, Irish Cement 75 Years, of Bogie Tanker Wagons with the Blue Logo on them. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any high quality ones for the Cement Bubbles. Has anyone contacted Irish Cement to ask them if they Confirmation that they used this might help with:-

A photograph/s of Bubbles with Blue Logo?

A drawing/design for the Blue Logo on a Bubble Wagon/s?

Confirmation of their use of the Blue Logo on their bubble Tanks?

 

A polite telephone call asking for help can result in help. Oh, what about soliciting the knowledge of some of the present or former Railway Company employees?

 

Irish Cement 75 Years PDF

 

http://www.irishcement.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Irish-Cement-Celebrating-75-Years.pdf

 

Yeah, there's no shortage of photos of the bogie wagons with the logo but images of the bubbles wearing it are a different matter. Telephone calls have already been made and the net is being cast wider.

[Noel]

Yeah, there's no shortage of photos of the bogie wagons with the logo but images of the bubbles wearing it are a different matter. Telephone calls have already been made and the net is being cast wider.

 

That white livery and two tone blue logo combination looks great on the large bubbles.

[jhb171achill]

Part of the problem is that the four wheelers were caked in cement in later years; we might as well assume that their "livery" was simply a coating of it! Indeed, a rake of them on a layout would simply not look realistic if clean, in reality.

[Glenderg]

Not good enough to "assume" JB. I've proofed a couple dozen wagons so far, 3 in the blue logo, the rest in broken wheel cie, all photos taken between 2006 and 2009. Clean only works if your layout is in 1982

[jhb171achill]

Yes, that was my point, Glenderg, to show that it was simply my assumption rather than a claim of fact - I have mentioned to Pat that I'm delving to find photos which might be more definitive than my assumptions! :-)

[Noel]

Part of the problem is that the four wheelers were caked in cement in later years; we might as well assume that their "livery" was simply a coating of it! Indeed, a rake of them on a layout would simply not look realistic if clean, in reality.

 

Totally understand they would not look like the 'real' world if clean, but just personally speaking, I'd prefer clean white bubbles with blue logos having the option of weathering them oneself rather than factory enforced weathering.

 

The photo of the cream white bogie bubbles in the publicity PDF looked great and could look visually attractive on a layout.

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Noel

[jhb171achill]

Interesting photo, Noel. It appears to show a blue chassis - memory suggests the 4-wheelers had a black chassis. Once I get photo evidence I'll comment further.

[Warbonnet]

Interesting photo' date=' Noel. It appears to show a blue chassis - memory suggests the 4-wheelers had a black chassis. Once I get photo evidence I'll comment further.[/quote']

 

Looks black with some cement dust on it to me JB!

[jhb171achill]

It's possible, Warbonnet. I never saw them BRAND new, and if blue (or black) would have got a good coat of both brake dust and cement dust very quickly.

[jhb171achill]

Black it is, I think. We would all remember if they had blue chassis like Taras did at first!

[Weshty]

Ohhhh, she black allright...

 

[Glenderg]

Ohhhh, she black allright...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23706[/ATTACH]

 

Amazing what track dirt and ballast can hide!

 

Anyway, a quick review of the data I have thus far. Of the 149 wagons on the network, I have very decent photos of 55 unique wagons in the last few years of service. Of those the branding works out as follows:-

 

22 are clearly branded with the CIE Broken Wheel. (Of this figure only 2 wagons have the "BULK CEMENT" stencil across the body.

24 are Undetermined as filth obscures all.

4 are branded as Irish Cement.

 

 

The remaining 5 are colour slides from 1976.

 

Makes for interesting numbers when it comes to considering what liveries to produce, how many to produce, weathered, unweathered and so on. The research continues.

 

Rich

[WRENNEIRE]

MIR Irish cement Transfers from 2 of their kits

Bubble on the left and Bogie Cement on the right

So I assume the MIR lads did some research on these logos?

 

[Glenderg]

The lower blue is much lighter and the font needs to be bolder, but it's not far off.

[DiveController]

22 are clearly branded with the CIE Broken Wheel. (Of this figure only 2 wagons have the "BULK CEMENT" stencil across the body.

The remaining 5 are colour slides from 1976.

Rich

25062 from the original series of 20 wagons 25050-25069 (1964) definitely had BULK CEMENT stenciled accross her tank as you have probably seen in the O' DEA collection, Derry, 1967. Oddly I cannot make out the roundel due to the color and angle on a B&W photo but it must be there just below.

 

The O'Dea collection has a rake of 7 bubbles behind an A class passing Kildare in 1967. 2508x is from the 25 wagon series 25070-25094 (1965) but the last digit (likely 8)is obscured by the ladder. The three bubbles nearest the photographer clearly have the CIE tan/white roundel and BULK CEMENT and the remaining wagons (although illegible) all have the appropriate white color in the correct position to indicate that the visible rake of seven wagons were stenciled with BULK CEMENT. Normally 20 wagons ran in a rake behind an A class, so it indicates how common the BULK stencil was, (likely everything in the 60s)

 

Back to concrete, Locomotives & Rolling Stock of CIE and & NIR Doyle & Hirsch (1981) p.79 shows 25156 from the 25140-25199 series introduced c. 1972 in Drogheda (?Year 1972-1981).

Locomotives & Rolling Stock of IR & NIR (3rd Ed., 1987) p.77 shows 25152 from the same series in Limerick , year undetermined. Both clearly have CIE roundels and BULK CEMENT.

 

MIR Irish cement Transfers from 2 of their kits

Bubble on the left and Bogie Cement on the right

So I assume the MIR lads did some research on these logos?

 

Anyone who might still have the instructions for the MIR cement bubble kits will see two liveries for the bubbles with orange, CIE roundel, BULK CEMENT from "1963-1979", and cream/ivory, Irish Cement from "1979 onwards". Clearly not everything had the cement scraped off the tanks and were reliveried immediately in 1979 (if at all)

Edited April 9, 2016 by DiveController

[Mayner]

I have a couple of CIE diagrams of cement bubbles

 

DRG 45600/2 is an undated (post 73) outline drawing with imperial dimensions though tank capacity is specified as 21 cubic metres

 

Painting surface areas are specified as: Tank 440sq/ft colour Manila BS 381C 367 U/frame 150 Sq, Ft approx. Colour Black.

 

No information is given on lettering or logos.

 

DRG 47400/1 (a) is a 1988 revision of 1987 metric standard general arrangement drawing, the revision relates to pipework alterations including a list of components

 

The wagon is drawn with the Irish Cement logo although no other livery detail is provided.

[WRENNEIRE]

[Glenderg]

25062 from the original series of 20 wagons 25050-25069 (1964) definitely had BULK CEMENT stenciled accross her tank as you have probably seen in the O' DEA collection, Derry, 1967. Oddly I cannot make out the roundel due to the color and angle on a B&W photo but it must be there just below.

 

The O'Dea collection has a rake of 7 bubbles behind an A class passing Kildare in 1967. 2508x is from the 25 wagon series 25070-25094 (1965) but the last digit (likely 8)is obscured by the ladder. The three bubbles nearest the photographer clearly have the CIE tan/white roundel and BULK CEMENT and the remaining wagons (although illegible) all have the appropriate white color in the correct position to indicate that the visible rake of seven wagons were stenciled with BULK CEMENT. Normally 20 wagons ran in a rake behind an A class, so it indicates how common the BULK stencil was, (likely everything in the 60s)

 

Back to concrete, Locomotives & Rolling Stock of CIE and & NIR Doyle & Hirsch (1981) p.79 shows 25156 from the 25140-25199 series introduced c. 1972 in Drogheda (?Year 1972-1981).

Locomotives & Rolling Stock of IR & NIR (3rd Ed., 1987) p.77 shows 25152 from the same series in Limerick , year undetermined. Both clearly have CIE roundels and BULK CEMENT.

 

 

Anyone who might still have the instructions for the MIR cement bubble kits will see two liveries for the bubbles with orange, CIE roundel, BULK CEMENT from "1963-1979", and cream/ivory, Irish Cement from "1979 onwards". Clearly not everything had the cement scraped off the tanks and were reliveried immediately in 1979 (if at all)

 

 

Dive, the font and colouring of "Bulk Cement" of the O'Dea Collection is vastly different from the stencilled version of "BULK CEMENT" of latter years, and I'd imagine that the wagon is the early version with the open W-irons of the late 1960's - stick up a link if you can.

 

I have original colour slide photos of the original gunsmoke blue/grey and all the livery details. I also have the colour codes for the orange bubbles. I also have everything that shows the ivory livery and every bit of text from 1982 up until close of play. I even know why some were orange, and some were blue/grey. I even know which wagon survived the early era, until very recently, without it's livery changed. There is a reason for the walkway codes being different to the solebar running numbers, and I'm all the sadder for knowing these details! But by jesus, can I find a definitive list of bubbles that wore "irish cement".

 

Will I get crucified if I get this wrong? Yes.

 

R.

 

Anyway,

[RedRich]

I have to admire IRM's desire to get this right Richie. It is very much appreciated to see this level of R&D being done and the willingness from IRM to share.

 

Rich,

[John-r]

I have to admire IRM's desire to get this right Richie. It is very much appreciated to see this level of R&D being done and the willingness from IRM to share.

 

Rich,

 

Well said rich, totally agree sometimes we overlook what goes on behind the scenes

And the time and effort that is required to get it right, well done to you all.

[DiveController]

Dive, the font and colouring of "Bulk Cement" of the O'Dea Collection is vastly different from the stencilled version of "BULK CEMENT" of latter years, and I'd imagine that the wagon is the early version with the open W-irons of the late 1960's - stick up a link if you can.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307375 Bubble at Derry, 1967

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306704 Bubbles at Kildare, 1967

 

Had been wondering about the blue/greys in all of this. Maybe you can share the various other details at some point?

Edited April 11, 2016 by DiveController

[Glenderg]

Cheers Dive,

 

Both photos are really interesting, in a really nerdy way. Kildare shot, the W-irons are the open older style, the axle box also. No covers present on the Vaac chamber at the far end either. This later became a cover with a chequerplate pattern, I assume to keep all the cement dust and crud forming on the gear itself. The colour is a dark grey - like a gunsmoke grey, with White "BULK CEMENT" text, orange broken wheel, and white CIE lettering.

 

The shot in derry is even better as the chassis appears to be a donor off a wagon perhaps. Note the brake wheel at the far end, and the vaac pipe on top, lack of lifting eyes and a brake gear generally. As far as I'm aware, and open to correction on everything here, these were produced in a primer grey with white text for "BULK CEMENT" along with the "NOT TO BE LOOSE SHUNTED" at the bottom of the bubble itself.

 

We have a theory that the newer batches of bubble were produced in the orange livery, and in or around 1982 the entire run of wagons were repainted in the ivory and broken wheel livery, which lasted up until they were turned into razor blades, with the exception of the 4 "Irish Cement" wagons.

 

A trip to the IRRS to research further beckons for Warbonnet and I

 

Rich.

 

Edit: RedRich and John-R - thanks lads - we may only get one shot at each wagon, it's expensive to re-tool something if we get it wrong. You'd want to hear the discussions we have over axle boxes, valve levers and things that may not be seen. Hopefully in the near future we'll have actual plastic to show off for the ballast and the finalised CAD images for the cement bubble.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Glenderg
Cos I forgot stuff

[DiveController]

Cheers Dive,

 

Both photos are really interesting, in a really nerdy way. Kildare shot, the W-irons are the open older style, the axle box also. No covers present on the Vaac chamber at the far end either. This later became a cover with a chequerplate pattern......

 

The shot in Derry is even better as the chassis appears to be a donor off a wagon perhaps. Note the brake wheel at the far end, and the vaac pipe on top, lack of lifting eyes and a brake gear generally.

 

Not as good on the variants of the W irons and axles boxes but had certainly noticed the lack of the hand brake lever. This shot has barely enough detail to appreciate the lack of brake levers on at least wagons 3-5 and at various point through the rake

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306218

 

While the bulk grain 25001 series wagons had donors, I didn't see any record of a donor for the bubbles Prior to posting that:confused:

Happy Researching!

Edited April 11, 2016 by DiveController

[Mayner]

Cheers Dive,

 

 

 

The shot in derry is even better as the chassis appears to be a donor off a wagon perhaps. Note the brake wheel at the far end, and the vaac pipe on top, lack of lifting eyes and a brake gear generally.

 

A trip to the IRRS to research further beckons for Warbonnet and I

 

Rich.

 

The wagon in the Derry photo may have been from the original batch of Bubbles, the chassis with the handbrake wheels is most likely to have evolved from an earlier design as opposed to a donor chassis from a 20' Flat.

 

The coach style brake gear with handbrake wheel is similar to that used by CIE on fitted flat wagons, H Vans and cattle wagons up to the introduction of the mid 1960s.

 

While the flat wagon chassis was similar it had a shorter wheelbase than the bubble, friction boxes and was only rated to carry 20 Ton tps://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/7080093371/in/photostream/ and passed into p.w. use rather than being uprated following the introduction of the 20ton flats in the mid 60s.

 

Its possible that 4 shoe wagon style brake gear with handlevers was retrofitted to wagons like that in the Derry photo as wagons were overhauled in the 70s & 80s.

 

Wagons were fitted with coach style brake gear as up to the mid 60s urgent goods traffic was carried as tail traffic on passenger trains running at up to 60mph rather than the 50mph max later allowed with Liner Trains.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Mayner

[WRENNEIRE]

Only pics I could find after a couple of days trawling

My old stomping ground, Upper Grangegorman