Provincial Wagons' next wagon?

[leslie10646]

This is a bit cheeky, but before I invest a couple of thousand quid I don't have ......

Recent sales have been disappointing (obviously I'm doing something very wrong!), so before I produce another damp squib, may I ask?

My next planned wagon, intended for launch at the Blackrock Exhibition in October, is the 1950 CIE Cattle Wagon. My logic is that now that one can buy a RTR Class J15, folk will need something to pull behind it? So, what did they spend their lives pulling? - endless cattle specials from Fairs the length and breadth of the Republic.  The choice seems logical (with one of my GSWR brakes on the back, or even front and back!). But is it?

Any takers? I can't hold you to any number which you might buy, but it would be useful to know, please!

Maybe, if you're interested, you'd e-mail me, please,  on

lesliemcallister@aol.com

Thanks for your forbearance with me.

Leslie

Photo: Courtesy Jonathan Allan

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by leslie10646

[leslie10646]

Apparently, I'm "dotty" - too many dots in my e-mail address!

Thanks, Richie, I've fixed it!

[jhb171achill]

I'll definitely take ten, maybe more.

[popeye]

They will be nice.

Were they in brown as well as grey?

And will it be a resin kit?

[Edo]

I 'd be in the market for 6 min - probably double that - they were everywhere.

[leslie10646]

Were they in brown as well as grey?

And will it be a resin kit?

Hi Popeye, anything I've seen suggests grey, although many were clearly fitted (the GN painted fitted stuff a bauxite shade, but not sure about CIE where cattle was concerned.

No doubt Comrade Beaumont will sort me out!

Yes, a resin kit.

Thanks for the interest.

Leslie

[popeye]

There is a picture in Rails through the west book page 20 shows them in a red/brown colour.

[jhb171achill]

On 6/7/2019 at 10:39 PM, popeye said:

They will be nice.

Were they in brown as well as grey?

And will it be a resin kit?

Probably a quarter of the fleet, maybe more, got the all-brown livery, but most stayed grey till the end. I saw a line of them in Cork about 1975/6 and a few still had flying snail stencils.

Naturally, none ever had the dreaded black chassis or white roof!

Edited June 8, 2019 by jhb171achill

[Old Blarney]

Front Cover Page - Irish Meteo-Vick Diesels.   Barry Carse. Publisher Colourpoint Books -  Colourpoint Transport 6

Hazelhatch c1973-74  There is a mixture of Grey and Bauxite Cattle Wagons show in this photograph. The Locomotive A20R in Black, white and Gold.

 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Old Blarney

[jhb171achill]

As with other wagons, anything brown would have been a post-1970 repaint. And cattle ended in 1975.

[fishplate7]

Great stuff Leslie. between 10 - 15 for me. Would love them in RTR format but kits are equally good!

[Old Blarney]

NNN

Edited June 10, 2019 by Old Blarney

[DART8118]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:10 PM, leslie10646 said:

This is a bit cheeky, but before I invest a couple of thousand quid I don't have ......

Recent sales have been disappointing (obviously I'm doing something very wrong!), so before I produce another damp squib, may I ask?

My next planned wagon, intended for launch at the Blackrock Exhibition in October, is the 1950 CIE Cattle Wagon. My logic is that now that one can buy a RTR Class J15, folk will need something to pull behind it? So, what did they spend their lives pulling? - endless cattle specials from Fairs the length and breadth of the Republic.  The choice seems logical (with one of my GSWR brakes on the back, or even front and back!). But is it?

Any takers? I can't hold you to any number which you might buy, but it would be useful to know, please!

Maybe, if you're interested, you'd e-mail me, please,  on

lesliemcallister@aol.com

Thanks for your forbearance with me.

Leslie

Photo: Courtesy Jonathan Allan

 

Leslie, great to see this wagon being modelled.  Include me for 6-10 and preferably RTR.  Anyone know if, besides cows and horses (I'm guessing horses)were these wagons used for transporting other livestock?  Also, were there any restrictions about bringing loaded rakes through mainline stations like Westland Row?

8118

[minister_for_hardship]

6 hours ago, DART8118 said:

Leslie, great to see this wagon being modelled.  Include me for 6-10 and preferably RTR.  Anyone know if, besides cows and horses (I'm guessing horses)were these wagons used for transporting other livestock?  Also, were there any restrictions about bringing loaded rakes through mainline stations like Westland Row?

8118

According to the GSR appendix...

Special Trains with Shipping Stock must have precedence over all trains other than Passenger trains.

Horses must as far as possible be loaded in roofed cattle trucks.

Live stock on slow goods trains should, as far as practicable, be attached next rear van in order to avoid injury to stock during shunting movements at stations.

Calves, sheep, goats and swine, if carried in the same railway truck or other railway vehicle with any head of cattle (other than a calf), or a horse, ass, or mule, shall be separated therefrom by a suitable partition; but this provision shall not apply to the conveyance of a cow with its unweaned calf, if they are separated from other animals.

Between each first day of November and the next following thirteenth day of April (both days inclusive) every railway truck or other railway vehicle in which shorn sheep are carried shall be covered and inclosed (sic.) so as to protect the sheep from the weather, without obstruction to proper ventilation; but this article shall not apply to sheep last shorn more than sixty days before being so carried.

Edited June 10, 2019 by minister_for_hardship

[DART8118]

Thanks for sharing, great insight into railway operation and especially Leslie's cattle wagons.

[Mayner]

Horses were usually transported in horseboxes which were classified as non-passenger coaching stock capable of passenger train speeds rather than goods stock. Horseboxes appear to be mainly pre-amalgamation stock though the GSR built some horseboxes to a GSWR design in the 1920s.

Horseboxes usually ran individually in scheduled passenger trains or as specials in connection with the larger race meetings. There is a picture of a train of horseboxes at Newcastle West en-route to the Listowel Races in the early 70s just before the traffic ended in JHB & Barry Carse North Kerry Pictorial Album.

Before the setting up of modern meat processing plants in the 60s & 70s a high proportion of cattle sold at fairs in the West were shipped by rail for fattening in the East or exported on the hoof to England & Scotland. 

The Midland had a limit of 25 wagons including van in the 1890s for cattle specials though loads may have increased as larger locos and longer vacuum fitted wagons were introduced. 

Traffic from the big fairs in the West were heavy, in 1923 there were paths for 6 livestock specials from Loughrea and 4 from Ballinrobe at close to hourly intervals on the Big Fair days.

In the 1960 WTT CIE had paths for shipping specials from the "South & West to the North Wall including paths from, Athy, Nenagh, Fethard, Tullamore, Tipperary, Moate, Mullingar, Mostrim & Roscommon. Following the closure of the SLNCR CIE introduced a scheduled Sligo-Mullingar "Shipper" which connected with the Athlone-North Wall Goods which could be "specially expedited" to ensure shipping at North Wall. The Sligo shipper also carried meat in containers from Dromod.

Other fairs would have been served by "Specials" which would have appeared in the "Weekly Traffic Notice"

[DART8118]

Thanks John.  More great information about the transport of livestock on the railway.

 

[leslie10646]

Gents

Thanks for the positive feedback, which encourages me to continue.

Feel free to add to my list - as I say, I can't hold you to numbers, but it's useful to know who's interested - they can get the first pictures, first!

Leslie

[jhb171achill]

Pretty clearly, cattle trucks and horse boxes are essential aspects of a pre-1965 layout - in some areas up to pre-75. In other words, before and during the entirety of the grey’n’green and black’n’tan eras.

Certainly in the case of cattle trucks, just as essential as a corrugated open wagon, a J15, a 141 and an “H” van.

Now for a Midland six-wheeler!

[leslie10646]

Horseboxes?

Yep, thought of those and of how few I'd sell - they did tend to run singly - except for the RDS Show?

Then, which one - GN, GS, BCDR (I could go on).

Of course, if I have fifty requests for a particular one, it'll be ready for the next show after Blackrock!

Back to Live Meat Transport. After a passionate debate (about thirty seocnd's thought), we've gone for the unfitted 1950 wagon, seen closest to the camera below.

If you want a 1949 one or two (the one furthest from the camera), a bit of Plasticard and a shortening of the cross bracing and Hey Presto, you're there.

Watch this space!

Still open for expressions of interest to encourage us!

[jhb171achill]

I'll take ten to start you off!

(But I don't want any live cows....)

Edited June 14, 2019 by jhb171achill

[DiveController]

There's no other model of the cattle wagon. I'll take some, Leslie (but I don't want any dead cows .....)

[Edo]

I'll take the cows - dead or alive ( as long as they're no more than 2cms tall!)

As before - put me down for 10 definitely - may take more.

ED

Edited June 15, 2019 by Edo

[Colin R]

Have been waiting for this one to appear would like ten but depends on the cost and if they can be made to fit 21mm gauge might take even more when the time comes.

 

Colin

[DART8118]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:25 PM, leslie10646 said:

Horseboxes?

Yep, thought of those and of how few I'd sell - they did tend to run singly - except for the RDS Show?

 

Found these two notes about horses being brought to auction in Ballsbridge 1900 and 1905.  So, horse trains all the way from Kildare.

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, DART8118 said:

Found these two notes about horses being brought to auction in Ballsbridge 1900 and 1905.  So, horse trains all the way from Kildare.

There  is a 1969 photo of a Cabra-Listowel horsebox special at Newcastle West in Rails Through North Kerry. The train was hauled by B160 and was made up of 15 "Pacos" (horseboxes) with a tin van at each end.

[DiveController]

Not to hi-jack your cattle van thread Leslie but John Mayne did a nice MGWR horse box in metal a few years back

On 7/9/2019 at 10:52 PM, Mayner said:

There  is a 1969 photo of a Cabra-Listowel horsebox special at Newcastle West in Rails Through North Kerry. The train was hauled by B160 and was made up of 15 "Pacos" (horseboxes) with a tin van at each end.

I have the book but had forgotten about that picture.

Several others have been  posted up on the site in the past often mixed with cattle boxes but obviously the latter would have predominated

On 7/9/2019 at 1:30 PM, DART8118 said:

... horses being brought to auction in Ballsbridge 1900 and 1905.  So, horse trains all the way from Kildare.

 

Great info , John. 

 

I suppose you could also convert one to PW van

Edited July 12, 2019 by DiveController

[leslie10646]

Thanks, Dart, for the interesting RDS notice.

Even by the 1950s, the GNR was running specials from for the punters going to the Show at Ballsbridge, for both humans and four legged passengers - but as an everyday traffic .......

As I said, fifty orders and we'll produce one!

I get a very strong impression, fuelled by an e-mail which I received (and a very quiet order book) that I'm wasting my time with kits - that what people want is RTR stuff?

Just back from Hamburg to see Miniature World - now there's a model railway!

[Galteemore]

4 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Thanks, Dart, for the interesting RDS notice.

Even by the 1950s, the GNR was running specials from for the punters going to the Show at Ballsbridge, for both humans and four legged passengers - but as an everyday traffic .......

As I said, fifty orders and we'll produce one!

I get a very strong impression, fuelled by an e-mail which I received (and a very quiet order book) that I'm wasting my time with kits - that what people want is RTR stuff?

Just back from Hamburg to see Miniature World - now there's a model railway!

Leslie - I don’t have a dog in this fight but I know from UK outline 7mm that kit building is probably on the wane as RTR from Minerva and Dapol etc ramps up. Many people cannot (or more likely feel they cannot) produce items from kits that will look good enough beside the crisply detailed stuff fresh out of the box. 

[leslie10646]

Good morning, David (shouldn't you be writing your sermon?).

I think the "don't think they can" is the truth (the results I've seen from my kits are terrific), plus the little element of time!

The trouble is, if you want stuff from steam-age Ireland, I'm afraid it will always be mainly kits!

As I think all my customers know, I got into this because I wanted GN wagons - I resolved that years ago - even to having a twenty wagon cattle train. The obvious next stop was steam-age CIE - hence the corrugated open and the H, both of which have been worth the bother - I'll let you all know when the corrugated passes the 300 mark!

[Galteemore]

Thanks Leslie - no sermon this Sunday ! I’m all for kit-building - and now scratch building from necessity.  But like many people, it took a leap of faith to actually start doing it. I think what you’ve done is brilliant and just wish your kits were 7mm scale - I’d build a few! 

[NIR]

I expect that people who go for volume go for ready to run anyway and are just getting spoilt at the moment, it's the likes of me with just three cement bubbles that are the collateral damage to the kits and bits sector.

Just remembered some of my economics, the cement bubbles, etc are a substitute not a complement. Maybe when the volume end has been satisfied the niche end will pick up again.

Edited July 12, 2019 by NIR

[DART8118]

Truly a golden era for modellers interested in the Irish railway scene.  I'll probably never get to run half of the RTR I buy this year and next, but in years to come I'm sure my grandchildren will sing the praises of those who made specialist Irish kits available and of those who had the wisdom to buy a few for leaner days.  I would take six horsebox kits and maybe more - GSR or D&SER is available.

8118.

[Colin R]

Its times like this you just want to say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont give up on the kits.

Take in to consideration the size of the irsh model market and I bet you are doing far better that some of the Smaller British kit manufactures who would have a larger market.

In 009 at the moment there is a lot more RTR than there has been for years, yet if Heljan can get it wrong then they are left with models no one wants to buy, but us 00n3 models felt a chill when Backwoods stopped producing his kits due to personal circumstances

The upside of this is that some one is now producing the kits again,  the downside is they are twice as expensuive due to costs, I did have a budget of £2,000 to buy all the kits I needed from him, now I will be luck to get all the one's I need for about £4,000.

Please don't take this the wrong way, But I do understand what is involved in bringing a kit to market, there is a lot more to it than a lot of people know, first you have to make a model to see how it will go together, then you may have to make up a number of prototype just to get one item correct, after that you have the masters to make and you hope that they come out good enough to make the kits in, if it isn;t then you have to start the whole process over again (more time used up). May be after six months or more it may just happen and you get  a new kit in production. you then need to price it up so you can recover your cost's, I don't know of one small model railway manufacturer making a living out of this.

So what it is worth please make the kits, I might not be the first in the que, but if your kits can run on 21mm gauge track then I will be interested and in line.

 

Regards

 

Colin R

 

 

 

 

 

[leslie10646]

Thanks for these last two comments.

Colin, almost all of our kits can be made up as 21mm gauge without too much hassle - they're all scale, so are certainly the right width.

Thanks, Dart, re the horseboxes. That's six, I'll start counting! You did see them quite often in photos taken "Down South", so maybe it'd better be a GSWR one?