Fake Railwayana

[minister_for_hardship]

Note weasel words "vintage style", "antique style", auctioneer code for "fake".

[minister_for_hardship]

How is it a "railway" hatchet?

I'm convinced auctioneers are just calling random objects "railway" to make them more saleable.

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, minister_for_hardship said:

How is it a "railway" hatchet?

I'm convinced auctioneers are just calling random objects "railway" to make them more saleable.

Just be grateful it wasn’t listed as ‘Beeching’s Axe’

[Broithe]

Out of interest, I Googled 'railway hatchet' and saw quite a few hatchety things, all different, under that description. Some had initials stamped on them that corresponded to initials used by railway companies. Whether that connection was real or not, though, I couldn't say.

I did work with a chap called Steve Smith, who used to stamp all his own tools with his initials. I expect them to start turning up for sale as WW2 memorabilia...

 

It does seem possible, though, that railways could have carried such devices, for improving entry/exit of vehicles in the event of crashes, etc. It certainly was the case on aircraft, where you could chop your way in, or out, through the skin, if the door mechanisms were out of action. 

[Galteemore]

1 minute ago, Broithe said:

Out of interest, I Googled 'railway hatchet' and saw quite a few hatchety things, all different, under that description. Some had initials stamped on them that corresponded to initials used by railway companies. Whether that connection was real or not, though, I couldn't say.

I did work with a chap called Steve Smith, who used to stamp all his own tools with his initials. I expect them to start turning up for sale as WW2 memorabilia...

 

It does seem possible, though, that railways could have carried such devices, for improving entry/exit of vehicles in the event of crashes, etc. It certainly was the case on aircraft, where you could chop your way in, or out, through the skin, if the door mechanisms were out of action. 

Standard fixture on RAF bombers in WW2, and many railway guards vans had axes IIRC.

[Broithe]

4 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Standard fixture on RAF bombers in WW2, and many railway guards vans had axes IIRC.

I have one in the garage somewhere. I may find it during my current domestic archaeology process.

[minister_for_hardship]

4 hours ago, Broithe said:

Out of interest, I Googled 'railway hatchet' and saw quite a few hatchety things, all different, under that description. Some had initials stamped on them that corresponded to initials used by railway companies. Whether that connection was real or not, though, I couldn't say.

I did work with a chap called Steve Smith, who used to stamp all his own tools with his initials. I expect them to start turning up for sale as WW2 memorabilia...

 

It does seem possible, though, that railways could have carried such devices, for improving entry/exit of vehicles in the event of crashes, etc. It certainly was the case on aircraft, where you could chop your way in, or out, through the skin, if the door mechanisms were out of action. 

Crowbar, rope, saw, axe I believe were carried for emergencies. A hatchet would pretty useless. These things would be recorded and invariably be marked with company initials to deter theft.

The auction lot hatchet blade, looking closely, is marked 'GNRI' but could be easily faked with letter punches.

[DERAILED]

Another crude fake on eBay for a mere £145 - from a reputable seller - I have advised them. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326344903438?_skw=IRELAND+RAILWAY&itmmeta=01JD4BRGKG7F6G39QT9ZFTCSNY&hash=item4bfbac0b0e:g:Dr8AAOSwyz1nPN-x&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkK%2BDdS5m%2FL1znQhd8KqGJA1lixRzG2IH%2F4yjNczGnONu%2B%2BFYuvQoz7vJBevXH9lSUNp1ZL9TKsmk4ed2rMwzUmAsVlzgtYHOcKoWfpfwkD%2FNEVZPW9QlT63wA%2B5Hp3lj8hac0%2B0AFe2aIkVwcqDqTe0kE4qBYbJY78yp8RWXUu1tuljBbgQymtY0Kgj2LowFwZRtE7SaqbzLquRJnLG8gcvCUV2amxh0VL6JpDax6MT03ehG%2BrzAYovpNitbTQrhE9ruUc%2FfUzalKZDsQvn8KpcXB2Qe5H%2FV4Fh%2BnrxEXNEw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-yJ4ovpZA

[amdaley]

32 minutes ago, DERAILED said:

Another crude fake on eBay for a mere £145 - from a reputable seller - I have advised them. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326344903438?_skw=IRELAND+RAILWAY&itmmeta=01JD4BRGKG7F6G39QT9ZFTCSNY&hash=item4bfbac0b0e:g:Dr8AAOSwyz1nPN-x&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkK%2BDdS5m%2FL1znQhd8KqGJA1lixRzG2IH%2F4yjNczGnONu%2B%2BFYuvQoz7vJBevXH9lSUNp1ZL9TKsmk4ed2rMwzUmAsVlzgtYHOcKoWfpfwkD%2FNEVZPW9QlT63wA%2B5Hp3lj8hac0%2B0AFe2aIkVwcqDqTe0kE4qBYbJY78yp8RWXUu1tuljBbgQymtY0Kgj2LowFwZRtE7SaqbzLquRJnLG8gcvCUV2amxh0VL6JpDax6MT03ehG%2BrzAYovpNitbTQrhE9ruUc%2FfUzalKZDsQvn8KpcXB2Qe5H%2FV4Fh%2BnrxEXNEw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-yJ4ovpZA

I'm not expert on these signs so how can you tell if they're fake ?

[minister_for_hardship]

13 minutes ago, amdaley said:

I'm not expert on these signs so how can you tell if they're fake ?

The real deal, looks nothing like the one pictured above.

[DERAILED]

Apart from there never having been such a MGWR sign - the first two letters top left don't match the others, the spacing is wrong, there's no wear around the bolt holes and the sign in general shows no wear. It's based on the standard GSWR gate sign with the G.S. & ground off and two new letters added before casting to make the new sign.

[jhb171achill]

13 hours ago, DERAILED said:

Another crude fake on eBay for a mere £145 - from a reputable seller - I have advised them. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326344903438?_skw=IRELAND+RAILWAY&itmmeta=01JD4BRGKG7F6G39QT9ZFTCSNY&hash=item4bfbac0b0e:g:Dr8AAOSwyz1nPN-x&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkK%2BDdS5m%2FL1znQhd8KqGJA1lixRzG2IH%2F4yjNczGnONu%2B%2BFYuvQoz7vJBevXH9lSUNp1ZL9TKsmk4ed2rMwzUmAsVlzgtYHOcKoWfpfwkD%2FNEVZPW9QlT63wA%2B5Hp3lj8hac0%2B0AFe2aIkVwcqDqTe0kE4qBYbJY78yp8RWXUu1tuljBbgQymtY0Kgj2LowFwZRtE7SaqbzLquRJnLG8gcvCUV2amxh0VL6JpDax6MT03ehG%2BrzAYovpNitbTQrhE9ruUc%2FfUzalKZDsQvn8KpcXB2Qe5H%2FV4Fh%2BnrxEXNEw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-yJ4ovpZA

Ah, the MCWR. Mullingar, Carlow & Waterloo Railway.

Seems legit.

[minister_for_hardship]

Another auction room favourite. The worthless Indian made 'vintage" candle lamps, never used on a real railway. 

[Horsetan]

On 1/11/2024 at 11:07 AM, Broithe said:

I have one in the garage somewhere. I may find it during my current domestic archaeology process.

Looks similar to the ones that were used as mountaineering equipment 

[irishrailways52]

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/356279511573?_skw=irish+railways&itmmeta=01JDFJQCW23E2WSA9AGPET3JY2&hash=item52f3e9ea15:g:KPcAAOSwDyVnPJhu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnhmCETdY1yS9Fcva8wYhxKNhEsCgvtytTeOAl1LoY9Bo1BiXKjVZW2cg074Pwt9fmGMd1f8eRIf5aQ1kqaTWqXfSCZiAY5HNaBMgNHo2TpK4uBGaVTlKlenNDYKtE4r0hoysW8HrFJ8PSf80LLb2pXeY%2FaeVdPpc5K1T5idYovtT0WCTRr6jY9KCQ7Hh4S3rA8L353WYtl3B4%2F5m7x%2BPaoziBPTZgDI56g1iLKNv22NZmV43mAEIs27foEEpNon0uta%2BnL4sQJ6p2pHFdSJyuhFdxH3qTm%2BdxvIbFlEt0xEQ%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5LO3fLrZA

would you say this is real or fake

[minister_for_hardship]

17 minutes ago, irishrailways52 said:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/356279511573?_skw=irish+railways&itmmeta=01JDFJQCW23E2WSA9AGPET3JY2&hash=item52f3e9ea15:g:KPcAAOSwDyVnPJhu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnhmCETdY1yS9Fcva8wYhxKNhEsCgvtytTeOAl1LoY9Bo1BiXKjVZW2cg074Pwt9fmGMd1f8eRIf5aQ1kqaTWqXfSCZiAY5HNaBMgNHo2TpK4uBGaVTlKlenNDYKtE4r0hoysW8HrFJ8PSf80LLb2pXeY%2FaeVdPpc5K1T5idYovtT0WCTRr6jY9KCQ7Hh4S3rA8L353WYtl3B4%2F5m7x%2BPaoziBPTZgDI56g1iLKNv22NZmV43mAEIs27foEEpNon0uta%2BnL4sQJ6p2pHFdSJyuhFdxH3qTm%2BdxvIbFlEt0xEQ%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5LO3fLrZA

would you say this is real or fake

Real, most paperwork is of relatively low value, bar say the likes of posters. Not worthwhile faking.

[Galteemore]

Agreed. This is how business was done before emails - reams and reams of paperwork like this. Having spent many many hours of my life poring over and handling such documents in various state archives, these look genuine. 

Edited November 24, 2024 by Galteemore

[leslie10646]

Just to mention that one of the items APPEARS to be a GNR(I) Weekly Notice. A massive run of them is to be found in the Holy of Holies in the IRRS Archive.

Also for GSR, GSWR  and CIE.

Another good reason for being an IRRS member - they are fascinating reading for anyone who wants to see how the railways ran, week on week.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Just to mention that one of the items APPEARS to be a GNR(I) Weekly Notice. A massive run of them is to be found in the Holy of Holies in the IRRS Archive.

Also for GSR, GSWR  and CIE.

Another good reason for being an IRRS member - they are fascinating reading for anyone who wants to see how the railways ran, week on week.

Couledn't agree more - they reveal much fascinating detail of what went on behind the scenes and are an absolutely essentuial source for anyone who wants to really know how the railway worked. It was very, very different to today.

[minister_for_hardship]

20 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Agreed. This is how business was done before emails - reams and reams of paperwork like this. Having spent many many hours of my life poring over and handling such documents in various state archives, these look genuine. 

The railways would have generated tons of the stuff; accident report forms, luggage labels, returns of stock held at stations (everything from shunting poles to pen nibs), handbills, etc etc.

There was a specialist collecting group called the Railway Print Society, unfortunately it folded a few years back.

Edited November 25, 2024 by minister_for_hardship

[DERAILED]

Our old friends in South Dublin Auction have even caught themselves in this description from the latest catalogue...

 

[Flying Snail]

30 minutes ago, DERAILED said:

Our old friends in South Dublin Auction have even caught themselves in this description from the latest catalogue...

 

From 1916 too, that just adds to the value and sure a little rust is to be expected ....

Section 90 of the Great Southern and Western Railway Act 1903 really was far reaching wasn't it? It reached all the way up to Newry apparently

Edited February 6 by Flying Snail

[airfixfan]

26 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

From 1916 too, that just adds to the value and sure a little rust is to be expected ....

Section 90 of the Great Southern and Western Railway Act 1903 really was far reaching wasn't it? It reached all the way up to Newry apparently

We will get a 1916 plate from the Craggy Island Railway next!

[Mol_PMB]

8 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

We will get a 1916 plate from the Craggy Island Railway next!

Given that it would be a long way away, that plate could be smaller, and hence cheaper to make?

[minister_for_hardship]

Still money to be made from shonky signs made out of Chinese bed irons.

Auctioneers are worse to be flogging this sh*te, especially when posing as experts on the Sunday newspaper supplements urging people to invest in so-called antiques. Del Boy Trotters most of them.

[Flying Snail]

I would love to see someone print one of these up in 7mm scale for their layout ... go on, go on, go on!! 

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

I would love to see someone print one of these up in 7mm scale for their layout ... go on, go on, go on!! 

I have had some custom etched signs done for my 7mm layout. Not sure I'd have deliberately fake ones done though!

[Flying Snail]

24 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I have had some custom etched signs done for my 7mm layout. Not sure I'd have deliberately fake ones done though!

Those are very nice MoI!

I do think spotting a fake one on an exhibition layout would be a nice easter egg to find, .... but then for every one who found it funny,  the poor exhibitor would probably have another ten visitors pointing out his 'mistake' to him. It would probably stop being funny very fast. 

Edited February 6 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

On 20/11/2024 at 8:52 AM, DERAILED said:

Another crude fake on eBay for a mere £145 - from a reputable seller - I have advised them. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326344903438?_skw=IRELAND+RAILWAY&itmmeta=01JD4BRGKG7F6G39QT9ZFTCSNY&hash=item4bfbac0b0e:g:Dr8AAOSwyz1nPN-x&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkK%2BDdS5m%2FL1znQhd8KqGJA1lixRzG2IH%2F4yjNczGnONu%2B%2BFYuvQoz7vJBevXH9lSUNp1ZL9TKsmk4ed2rMwzUmAsVlzgtYHOcKoWfpfwkD%2FNEVZPW9QlT63wA%2B5Hp3lj8hac0%2B0AFe2aIkVwcqDqTe0kE4qBYbJY78yp8RWXUu1tuljBbgQymtY0Kgj2LowFwZRtE7SaqbzLquRJnLG8gcvCUV2amxh0VL6JpDax6MT03ehG%2BrzAYovpNitbTQrhE9ruUc%2FfUzalKZDsQvn8KpcXB2Qe5H%2FV4Fh%2BnrxEXNEw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-yJ4ovpZA

MCWR = Monserrat, Calcutta and Wolsztyn Railroad.

Surely you’re aware ‘twas the gem of the colonies….

[gph2000]

Surely,  it's the Mullingar County Westmeath Railway!

[DERAILED]

What about this from Adverts.ie and there seems to be two of them - one apparently already sold by a seller with no feedback https://www.adverts.ie/member/3203065/ads to a buyer with no feedback.

 

[Blaine]

21 hours ago, DERAILED said:

What about this from Adverts.ie and there seems to be two of them - one apparently already sold by a seller with no feedback https://www.adverts.ie/member/3203065/ads to a buyer with no feedback.

 

You can almost see the bits of talcum powder/baking soda used in the 'ageing/weathering' process. Plus 'line of tramway' makes no sense, doubt the Hill of Howth tramway had such signs, as I dont think the Fintona branch was considered a tramway - just a lightly used and short line. 

Fake people buying fake signs....

[minister_for_hardship]

21 hours ago, Blaine said:

You can almost see the bits of talcum powder/baking soda used in the 'ageing/weathering' process. Plus 'line of tramway' makes no sense, doubt the Hill of Howth tramway had such signs, as I dont think the Fintona branch was considered a tramway - just a lightly used and short line. 

Fake people buying fake signs....

Not necessarily. The GN did have those in Railway and Tramway versions, one of the Tramway ones is in the IRRS library. Almost certainly Hill of Howth placed where public rights of way and tramway met.

The odd, to our eyes, wording probably borrows from 19th century legalese.

 

 

Original? Yes. Antique? Perhaps not.

If you've been wondering where all those IE bridgeplates that have "fallen off" went, look no further than South Dublin Auctions. 

Edited March 15 by minister_for_hardship

[bufferstop]

You have to laugh at some of the descriptions, and yet people are buying them. Having said that, I did buy an original MGWR bridge plate from them some years ago for €40. I really have to ask a certain Bridge Engineer in IR as to the exact location.....

Edited March 17 by bufferstop

[bufferstop]

Speaking of bridges, way back in the day, I was on a 201 with a set of a Mk3's. We came on an emergency 5mph TSR. A couple of Per Way lads keeping check at a collapsed culvert.The entire culvert was gone and the rails were propped up on well, props. We crawled over it and I remember looking down, thinking this is interesting.  Not a bother, Per Way boys knew their shit!