Shouldn't Have Scrapped The Mk3's

[DJ Dangerous]

Shortage of coaches:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-customers-face-two-more-years-of-overcrowding-1.3994479?

41 new coaches hoped for, maybe something new to model?

 

[Railer]

It's old news. Those 41 coaches are options for intermediates to bring more 3ICR sets up to 4ICRs.

They are still not approved for purchase and they have been talking bout them for years now.

A big EMU and or combination DMU bimode order is being looked at too. The 2600s in Cork will need replacing soon along with the LHB DART units.

[jhb171achill]

I've developed a bit of a soft spot for the little 26's in Cork - the only trains left in which you can open the windows and get fresh air, thus the only trains in Ireland that aren't fixed at sweat-boiling temperatures inside! And the noise of them going up the tunnel.....

I liked the 27s for that reason too.

[RedRich]

Even though the 2700's replaced the Cravens on the Waterford Limerick  route (which at the time was hard to take) I did get to kind of like them.

The MK111's were the most comfortable coaches I have ever travelled on and I do miss them especially running behind an 071.

Rich,

[Noel]

Yes the squandering of the mk3 coaches because mr NWSE thought DMUs could run the world was almost criminally negligent. Sweat your assets. BR were able to operate their mk3s for an extra 15 years, ours got chopped up for scrap.

[JasonB]

1 hour ago, RedRich said:

Even though the 2700's replaced the Cravens on the Waterford Limerick  route (which at the time was hard to take) I did get to kind of like them.

The MK111's were the most comfortable coaches I have ever travelled on and I do miss them especially running behind an 071.

Rich,

I had a similar opinion of the 2600's when they were first introduced on the Connolly - Maynooth service back in the mid 90's. I despised the sight of them in the beginning, but they grew on me over time. What I'd give to see them work the line now. 

[Rob]

For many reasons, the Mark 3's should never have been scrapped!

[RedRich]

14 minutes ago, JasonB said:

I had a similar opinion of the 2600's when they were first introduced on the Connolly - Maynooth service back in the mid 90's. I despised the sight of them in the beginning, but they grew on me over time. What I'd give to see them work the line now. 

Agree Jason the 26 and 2700's served a purpose and they served it well. 

Rich,

[leslie10646]

I know it costs money to keep rolling stock but the Austrians obviously think it"s worth it.

Most major cities have a rake or two of 30 year old coaches for rush hour commuter traffic. They are hauled  by any loco.

Likewise the Mark 3s.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by leslie10646

[leslie10646]

Now that I'm back home, I can give you an idea of what I was talking about.

1144 034 at Telfs-Pfaaffenhofen last week after doing 87mph en route from Innsbruck.

The loco is over thirty years old and the coaches about the same vintage as the Mark 3s.

All available in HO from Roco etc .....

Edited August 27, 2019 by leslie10646

[josefstadt]

On 8/23/2019 at 4:56 PM, jhb171achill said:

I've developed a bit of a soft spot for the little 26's in Cork - the only trains left in which you can open the windows and get fresh air, thus the only trains in Ireland that aren't fixed at sweat-boiling temperatures inside! And the noise of them going up the tunnel.....

I liked the 27s for that reason too.

And, of course the 8100 / 8300 DARTs.

[Warbonnet]

On 8/23/2019 at 10:41 PM, Noel said:

Yes the squandering of the mk3 coaches because mr NWSE thought DMUs could run the world was almost criminally negligent. Sweat your assets. BR were able to operate their mk3s for an extra 15 years, ours got chopped up for scrap.

The Mark IIIs have continued to run in the UK due to extensive refurbishments. The choice IE had at the time was rebuild or get new. With plenty of money floating around and cheaper operating costs, it made sense at the time to buy the ICRs instead, so that can hardly be described as 'criminally negligent'. Hindsight is a powerful thing but I can understand why a load of coaches werent left rotting in sidings for a decade during a long recession in case one day the railways got busy again. As much as I liked the mark IIIs too it is understandable why they were binned at the time. 

[jhb171achill]

Much as I hate to say it, given traffic requirements on Irish railways, railcars are unfortunately the most efficient way of doing things.

If IE were starting this again, push pulls as on the Belfast and Cork routes would be another way of doing things.

[Noel]

17 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Much as I hate to say it, given traffic requirements on Irish railways, railcars are unfortunately the most efficient way of doing things.

If IE were starting this again, push pulls as on the Belfast and Cork routes would be another way of doing things.

Perhaps with smaller locos one at each end of a rake of coaches (one pushing, one pulling). We will eventually end up electrifying one way or another. It's just a matter of time. Once the french nuclear electric interconnected is operational and Ireland hits 70% wind generation it will become a no brainer, especially with carbon taxes. Get rid of your diesel lads, the govt are likely to attempt to repeat the Norway experience and tax diesels off the roads within a decade or less.

5 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

The Mark IIIs have continued to run in the UK due to extensive refurbishments. The choice IE had at the time was rebuild or get new. With plenty of money floating around and cheaper operating costs, it made sense at the time to buy the ICRs instead, so that can hardly be described as 'criminally negligent'. Hindsight is a powerful thing but I can understand why a load of coaches werent left rotting in sidings for a decade during a long recession in case one day the railways got busy again. As much as I liked the mark IIIs too it is understandable why they were binned at the time. 

So with 'plenty of money floating around' why not 'extensive refurbishments'? Wasting hundreds of millions of tax payers money is not a trivial matter. Even IR insiders have told me it was viewed as bonkers internally by some. One could ask if there was a fear of deregulated competition?

[jhb171achill]

8 minutes ago, Noel said:

 

So with 'plenty of money floating around' why not 'extensive refurbishments'? Wasting hundreds of millions of tax payers money is not a trivial matter. Even IR insiders have told me it was viewed as bonkers internally by some. One could ask if there was a fear of deregulated competition?

I think the rationale was that even refurbished, they would cost more annually to maintain, while eventually living on a shorter time than the ICRs anyway.

[Warbonnet]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Perhaps with smaller locos one at each end of a rake of coaches (one pushing, one pulling). We will eventually end up electrifying one way or another. It's just a matter of time. Once the french nuclear electric interconnected is operational and Ireland hits 70% wind generation it will become a no brainer, especially with carbon taxes. Get rid of your diesel lads, the govt are likely to attempt to repeat the Norway experience and tax diesels off the roads within a decade or less.

So with 'plenty of money floating around' why not 'extensive refurbishments'? Wasting hundreds of millions of tax payers money is not a trivial matter. Even IR insiders have told me it was viewed as bonkers internally by some. One could ask if there was a fear of deregulated competition?

25-30 year old coaches with refurb, extended life expectancy of about 15 years? New rolling stock which is safer, more fuel efficient, cheaper to run and does away with shunting at either end of the journey? 30 year life. Refurbishment cos are about 65-70% of buying new, so it was a no brainer and the right decision. The Mark IIIs gave good life but their time was done. Thankfully the right decision to buy new trains was made to give IE one of the most modern fleets in Europe, and at the end of the day it’s run as a service to the public, not something to appease us gricers and enthusiasts.

[NIRCLASS80]

I think it’s all about changing times. I would love NIR to have nothing but GM’s and racks of Gatwick’s but it’s not happening. 

The best very recent example is Transpennine Express route in England. After years of DMU 3 car usage they have changed to loco push/pull operation 5 carriages due to increasing passenger numbers. 

The new push/pull operation is just starting out but by reports on forums passengers are really appreciative of the new stock.

[DERAILED]

On 8/29/2019 at 1:20 PM, Warbonnet said:

The Mark IIIs have continued to run in the UK due to extensive refurbishments. The choice IE had at the time was rebuild or get new. With plenty of money floating around and cheaper operating costs, it made sense at the time to buy the ICRs instead, so that can hardly be described as 'criminally negligent'. Hindsight is a powerful thing but I can understand why a load of coaches werent left rotting in sidings for a decade during a long recession in case one day the railways got busy again. As much as I liked the mark IIIs too it is understandable why they were binned at the time. 

Can't agree with any of this. It's like something out of the Barry Kenny spin book. Perfectly good carriages were thrown on the scrapheap by a company who shouldn't be trusted to design a tea trolley because there's no financial responsibility for anything in the public sector. The ICRs are unsuitable replacements for many of the services they now operate - Connolly/Rosslare being a case in point. Trains are too small and cannot be made larger due to the impossibility of lengthening the platforms at Rathdrum - if Selective Door Opening had been included in the design specifications this would not be a problem. There's not enough room for bicycles. The design of the ICRs means that they are not suitable for parcels either which further undermines the relevance of trains at all outside the Greater Dublin Area. Anyway, I could go on and on but nobody's listening - sorry for the rant!

[leslie10646]

jhb171achill said:

Much as I hate to say it, given traffic requirements on Irish railways, railcars are unfortunately the most efficient way of doing things.

If IE were starting this again, push pulls as on the Belfast and Cork routes would be another way of doing things.

Jon, of course you're right where a lot of Ireland is concerned, but there are exceptions.

Several times in my lifetime I've heard railway engineers, who sounded as if they knew what they were talking about, say that over five coaches, loco haulage was better.

It will be interesting to see how the TPE loco plus coaches thing works out.

Our German cousins obviously think it has some merit as within the last five years they built five car double deckers, capable of 125mph to be loco hauled on non-high speed line routes. I can testify that they are very comfortable trains to travel in.

[Warbonnet]

1 hour ago, DERAILED said:

Can't agree with any of this. It's like something out of the Barry Kenny spin book. Perfectly good carriages were thrown on the scrapheap by a company who shouldn't be trusted to design a tea trolley because there's no financial responsibility for anything in the public sector. The ICRs are unsuitable replacements for many of the services they now operate - Connolly/Rosslare being a case in point. Trains are too small and cannot be made larger due to the impossibility of lengthening the platforms at Rathdrum - if Selective Door Opening had been included in the design specifications this would not be a problem. There's not enough room for bicycles. The design of the ICRs means that they are not suitable for parcels either which further undermines the relevance of trains at all outside the Greater Dublin Area. Anyway, I could go on and on but nobody's listening - sorry for the rant!

You can’t agree that the Mark IIIs were due refurbishment and with government money in plentiful supply at the time it made sense to buy new for longer service life of new stock in return and cheaper operating costs?

You make the argument about ICRs being unsuitable for service, but if you read back what you quoted from me I didn’t say anything regarding the suitability or not of ICRs.

[Noel]

Fran, apologies but I find it rather condescending and insulting that you as a moderator paste laugh emojis on some of the contributions made by members of this forum on this thread, and customers of yours, customers of IRM. Fair enough folk may have different views on the rationalisation of the passenger railways over that past two decades, but there seems no call for sarcastic emojis, especially directed at your own customers. There was nothing whatsoever funny in the relevant posts. The good spirit of the forum and respectful manners should apply to all.

[WRENNEIRE]

Feeling the love here in D5

[RedRich]

I have to say that I've never seen anyone apologise in advance of issuing a boll***ing before. Fran must be on his knees laughing. I mean how could you take that seriously.

Rich,

[NIRCLASS80]

Is this a model railway forum with a bit of crack or a government committee. Everyone that gives their view online needs to remember that it can be agreed with, disagreed with, laughed at, or just dished off the face of the earth. 

But most importantly no one dies and none of us will change the past. 

Enjoy the hobby and I say the whole Irish system should have UTA jeeps with Mk5a coaches. 

So as Accurascale is making the coaches could IRM please get the Jeep made!

Edited September 1, 2019 by NIRCLASS80

[Warbonnet]

21 hours ago, Noel said:

Fran, apologies but I find it rather condescending and insulting that you as a moderator paste laugh emojis on some of the contributions made by members of this forum on this thread, and customers of yours, customers of IRM. Fair enough folk may have different views on the rationalisation of the passenger railways over that past two decades, but there seems no call for sarcastic emojis, especially directed at your own customers. There was nothing whatsoever funny in the relevant posts. The good spirit of the forum and respectful manners should apply to all.

Hi Noel,

it appears you have done the same on my comments, so can we conclude that you are sitting in a glass house here? Your constant sniping at me and others here and elsewhere for posting anything you disagree with has become tiresome to be honest, but we let it go and give you every chance. As other lads above have pointed out, we are having a debate about trains, nothing more. I find it quite poor that because I post something you disagree with you decide to throw my job and livelihood at me as a protest. How distasteful in the extreme. I’m so disappointed. It’s patiently obvious that I cannot have different opinions on things railway and enjoy a discussion and debate without having these threats held over me in the future.

Mark 3 = Good. ICRs = Bad. Thread locked.