Hattons "Genesis" Generic Six Wheelers

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, K801 said:

What are the two coach ranges?

Park Royals and Mk2’s.

I guess Mk3’s are also a possibility but hopefully not just yet.

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Correct. And early bogie coaches, a few of which made it into the 1950s and early diesel era, while longer, were also as low-roofed. Beside anything built after 1915 they looked lower still in comparison. This included a tin vans, which were full modern coach height - check out pics of a six-wheeled train with a tin van….

I suppose the bigger issue (to my eye) is width. Irish 6 wheelers really show up the full width afforded by 5'3, and being so much shorter than bogie coaches it's all the more obvious. Especially if someone (like yourself JB!) has kit built Irish six wheelers, next to british width coaches it's quite stark.

To each their own, of course.

[jhb171achill]

15 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

I suppose the bigger issue (to my eye) is width. Irish 6 wheelers really show up the full width afforded by 5'3, and being so much shorter than bogie coaches it's all the more obvious. Especially if someone (like yourself JB!) has kit built Irish six wheelers, next to british width coaches it's quite stark.

To each their own, of course.

Yes, exactly. The Hattons stock is the right height and length for Irish six-wheel stock - exactly. But with british railways having a noticeably narrower loading gauge (width) than Irish stock, THIS is indeed exactly where a difference shows. My solution is that I use my SSM six-wheelers, made up from brass kits by Eoin of this parish, mixed and mingled with a green Park Royal I have, and the Hattons ones with a repainted British clerestorey bogie I have - it also being narrower as it was an LMS model.

The compromise is the black and tan full passenger brake. When the very last of the six-wheelers were withdrawn, the green livery was still in vogue, and therefo9re no passenger-carrying six-wheeler ever saw black'n'tan. After they were all withdrawn and scrapped, or converted to breakdown vans in some cases (and painted grey), something like 6 or 7 FULL BRAKE six-wheelers remained. While at least two of these were withdrawn only a year or two later, and thus remained green to the end, a very small number survived to be BnT. Thus, once repainted this way, they ONLY ran with passenger-carrying BOGIE stock; which in turn means that they'd look odd behind a Craven. But, needs must and I am delighted to have one.

[GSR 800]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, exactly. The Hattons stock is the right height and length for Irish six-wheel stock - exactly. But with british railways having a noticeably narrower loading gauge (width) than Irish stock, THIS is indeed exactly where a difference shows. My solution is that I use my SSM six-wheelers, made up from brass kits by Eoin of this parish, mixed and mingled with a green Park Royal I have, and the Hattons ones with a repainted British clerestorey bogie I have - it also being narrower as it was an LMS model.

The compromise is the black and tan full passenger brake. When the very last of the six-wheelers were withdrawn, the green livery was still in vogue, and therefo9re no passenger-carrying six-wheeler ever saw black'n'tan. After they were all withdrawn and scrapped, or converted to breakdown vans in some cases (and painted grey), something like 6 or 7 FULL BRAKE six-wheelers remained. While at least two of these were withdrawn only a year or two later, and thus remained green to the end, a very small number survived to be BnT. Thus, once repainted this way, they ONLY ran with passenger-carrying BOGIE stock; which in turn means that they'd look odd behind a Craven. But, needs must and I am delighted to have one.

I've the full brake BnT, and I'm considering repainting her into dark green. Have plenty to do before I decide on that though!

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, GSR 800 said:

I've the full brake BnT, and I'm considering repainting her into dark green. Have plenty to do before I decide on that though!

Those were like hen's teeth! Dunno how many they made but I think they sold quickly..... For your own purposes, if you wanted one to go with passenger-carrying six wheelers, and accuracy with it, then it would have to be green.

 

[Mol_PMB]

I picked up a BnT full brake (at a rather premium price when Rails sold off the the Hattons leftovers) but when I realised how hard it was to regauge, I wished I hadn’t! I’m going to make a green one based on the SSM kits instead.

[Colonel]

 Here's that Casserley photo I mentioned the other day, which shows just how small the six wheelers could be against more modern stock. Indeed, width over the body was often only 8'6 - not exactly making the most of the wider loading gauge.

 The photo comes from the book below. Well worth getting hold of a copy.

 

 

[Mayner]

 

Close up from H C Casserley photo of Loughrea Branch train showing difference in profile, height and width between a GSWR 6wheeler and an early 1950s Inchacore built coach.

Some comparison between models.

Hornby (80s) Stanier Coach --width-----36mm-------9'      (at waist)

MM Craven--------------------width----37.6mm-----  9'-5" (at waist)

SSM (1937) Bredin------------width----36.8mm------ 9'9" (at waist)

WW Laminate-----------------width---40.9mm-------10'3" (at waist)

SSM GSWR 6w coach---------width---36.2mm------- 9'-2 (at waist)

Prototype

MGW Atock 6w coach--------width-------------------9' at waist

                                                                                           8'6" at floor.

LMS coaches that ran in Ireland.

NOC----new suburban and main line stock built in UK----LMS or Irish width?

NCC & GNR(I)-- former LNWR and Midland coaches Wartime replacement coaches. 

DNGR----------were coaches built to same width as LNWR coaches used in Great Britain?

 

 

[Irishswissernie]

I have the Richard Casserley negative of the same train at Attymon. Enlargment below.

 

[airfixfan]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

 

Close up from H C Casserley photo of Loughrea Branch train showing difference in profile, height and width between a GSWR 6wheeler and an early 1950s Inchacore built coach.

Some comparison between models.

Hornby (80s) Stanier Coach --width-----36mm-------9'      (at waist)

MM Craven--------------------width----37.6mm-----  9'-5" (at waist)

SSM (1937) Bredin------------width----36.8mm------ 9'9" (at waist)

WW Laminate-----------------width---40.9mm-------10'3" (at waist)

SSM GSWR 6w coach---------width---36.2mm------- 9'-2 (at waist)

Prototype

MGW Atock 6w coach--------width-------------------9' at waist

                                                                                           8'6" at floor.

LMS coaches that ran in Ireland.

NOC----new suburban and main line stock built in UK----LMS or Irish width?

NCC & GNR(I)-- former LNWR and Midland coaches Wartime replacement coaches. 

DNGR----------were coaches built to same width as LNWR coaches used in Great Britain?

 

 

NCC were of LMS width

[Mol_PMB]

They're a fair match to the SSM models from the side, though the Genesis are 32' long compared to the 30' more common in Ireland:

Looking from above the width difference is more obvious. I considered trying to regauge the Hattons coach (which would also need to be widened to accomodate that) but it's not really practical.

[Galteemore]

11 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

They're a fair match to the SSM models from the side, though the Genesis are 32' long compared to the 30' more common in Ireland:

Looking from above the width difference is more obvious. I considered trying to regauge the Hattons coach (which would also need to be widened to accomodate that) but it's not really practical.

Yes, it almost looks HO beside an OO model! That would be a major rebuild- all you could really salvage from the body would be the sides as you’d need new - or substantially new - roof and ends 

Edited February 7 by Galteemore

[leslie10646]

18 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

@DJ Dangerous yip it was me - then JB reminded me that they were actually much smaller in real life so I'm feeling better about them now.  They are gorgeous models, and fantastic runners, as long as you make sure the middle axle is actually on the rails (speaking from experience!)

 

Patrick, I can recommend a small outay on the "ReRailer" usually a fiver well spent!

I have a Hornby one and a Peco one always to hand on Portadown Junction!

I have several six wheelers on Rosses Point and the engine shed, but happily a nice man USED TO 3D print them (yep in 36.75mm and 32mm), but no longer, unhappily.

By the way - good luck to Accurascale with Genesis - I have CIE ones AND LNWR ones (psuedo DNGR - yes, yes, nothing like, but it's my railway!).

Vide:

 

[jhb171achill]

DNGR stock was built to irish dimensions.

Regarding NCC stock, vehicles brought in from Britain in the 1940s were obviously to the British loading gauge, so they were agood 9 inches narrower and also lower in height, though not as low as pre-1910 stock. NCC stock "proper" was built in Belfast or in Britain - to irish dimensions. I remember in UTA days, often seeing loco-hauled trains which were a mix of ex-GNR and ex-NCC stock of both types - and you could spot the British wartime ones a mile off due to being narrowr and slightly lower (maybe about 4 - 5 inches lower?)

As for Genesis, I believe that GSR and DNGR liveries, at least, MAY be under consideration. 

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Colonel said:

 Here's that Casserley photo I mentioned the other day, which shows just how small the six wheelers could be against more modern stock. Indeed, width over the body was often only 8'6 - not exactly making the most of the wider loading gauge.

 The photo comes from the book below. Well worth getting hold of a copy.

 

 

Amazing to think that in 1955 and even 1960 there were still quite a few steam-operated, mixed train branch services... Kenmare, Foynes, Valentia, Loughrea, Ballinrobe, Ballaghaderreen.....

[Rosslare Ranger]

Any chance of another run of these coaches from IRM. I'll take 10if there is.

[Flying Snail]

I have a few and they're lovely carriages alright

... sure if your doing another run, maybe through in a few GSR or even GSWR while you're at it too lads? Anyone for the DNGR???

[Metrovik]

And sure while your at it you may as well put out a few W&T coaches too!

[Rosslare Ranger]

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

I have a few and they're lovely carriages alright

... sure if your doing another run, maybe through in a few GSR or even GSWR while you're at it too lads? Anyone for the DNGR???

I might need more than 10 in that  case

[Colin R]

I can't help but think you would be better off just producing an unpainted version like Dapol and selling them by the boxful