Running your IRM A class with what stock

[DJ Dangerous]

Slightly off-topic and slightly-on, but of our current / possible-near-future roster of MM and IRM RTR rolling stock, both passenger and freight, what would suit which A Class?

Single-stripe Cravens...

Twin-stripe cravens...

ST Mk2D's...

IR Mk2D's...

IE Mk2D's...

Not sure if they ever hauled any of the Mk3's on a regular basis at all?

Ballast wagons...

IRM weedspray train is probably too new?

Gypsums...

Blue Tara's...

Red Tara's...

Orange Bubbles...

Grey Bubbles...

Ivory Bubbles...

42' Container Liners...

Fert Liners...

Guinness Keg Liners...

Would be nice to have a kind of compatibility list or chart.

I haven't included Silver Fox or IFM stock as it is not / was not exactly readily available.

[Warbonnet]

All of the above apart from Mark 3s and our spoils and weedspray! IE ballasts prob a bit too new too. 

[Blaine]

12 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

IE ballasts prob a bit too new too. 

I'd almost say anything IE Branded is too new, IE logo came in just as the A's were finishing up, so no IE MK2D's or the MK2A's either which were air braked only

[DJ Dangerous]

46 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Single-stripe Cravens...

Twin-stripe cravens...

ST Mk2D's...

IR Mk2D's...

CIE Ballast wagons...

IR Ballast Wagons...

Gypsums...

Blue Tara's...

Red Tara's...

Orange Bubbles...

Grey Bubbles...

Ivory Bubbles...

42' Container Liners...

Fert Liners...

Guinness Keg Liners...

So, of the above, which would have run with which livery A-Class?

[Blaine]

On 21/4/2021 at 12:56 PM, DJ Dangerous said:

So, of the above, which would have run with which livery A-Class?

Single-stripe Cravens... - Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Twin-stripe cravens...Supertrain with IR logos,IR 

ST Mk2D's...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR

IR Mk2D's...Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

CIE Ballast wagons...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR

IR Ballast Wagons...Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Gypsums...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Blue Tara's...Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos,  IR 

Red Tara's...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR 

Orange Bubbles...Black and Tan, Supertrain

Grey Bubbles...Black and Tan, Supertrain

Ivory Bubbles with CIE/Irish Cement branding ...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR

42' Container Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Fert Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos,  IR 

Guinness Keg Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR . - The Guinness Cages came later, late 90's

 

Rough Year Guide

Black and Tan livery 1968-1976

Supertrain livery 1972 - 1988

Supertrain with IR logos 1987-1992

IR livery - 1987-1995

Edited March 10, 2022 by Blaine
More information

[murphaph]

The last A was stopped in September 1995 so I'd say there's every chance they pulled IE branded mk2d's. Nobody will ever be able to say it definitely didn't happen which is my rule of thumb lol.

[DJ Dangerous]

So, you're saying that I need to buy a lot more A Classes than I thought...

[Blaine]

4 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The last A was stopped in September 1995 so I'd say there's every chance they pulled IE branded mk2d's. Nobody will ever be able to say it definitely didn't happen which is my rule of thumb lol.

Need photographic proof  ,they were not common on passenger work in their final year. 

[Noel]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So, you're saying that I need to buy a lot more A Classes than I thought...

You've discovered the cunning plan then?

Seriously in terms of passenger stock:

• CIE Black'n'Tan A ran with Laminates, Bredins, Park Royals & Cravens single stripe, and ST mk2d's for a brief period before all A classes got the ST livery
• CIE ST A class ran primarily with ST Mk2d, but could also have hauled all of the above and even early IR Tippex Mk2d for a while before the locos got their IE Tippex stripes
• IR Tippex A class mainly hauled Mk2d in IR Tippex with orange roofs, Cravens, and Park Royals as laminates where phased out.

Yes it might be useful for new comers to have access to livery and formation compatibility charts. I think one of the UK retailers like Rails or Hattons did something like this in the UK for BR stock.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Noel

[DJ Dangerous]

26 minutes ago, Noel said:

You've discovered the cunning plan then?

But I only have a finite number of walls to display them on. At this rate, I'll be building dividing walls all over the place just to display the models in their boxes!

That's a fabulous list, Blaine. Clicking "Like" once doesn't seem enough.

2 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

All of the above apart from Mark 3s and our spoils and weedspray! IE ballasts prob a bit too new too. 

Might be an idea, if it were possible, to put some sort of graphic on the website, reflecting Blaine's list?

Or even to have the first item on the "Features" list for each loco identifying the appropriate stock?

As in "This X livery loco no. X will be ideal for hauling A, B, C, D, E etc" ...

[Billycan]

Great listing Blaine.  Have always envied UK modellers who have super illustrations in the modelling magazines that show locos and the rakes they pulled.  Maybe this will start a ball rolling for modellers of the Irish scene. 

Just curious.  What's the difference between IR and Full IR.  I see that IRM lists 4 Irish Rail versions - 054, 017, 036 and 048 - but none mentions Full IR.  

Also, any details of liveries that pulled the ammonia tankers?  

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, Billycan said:

Great listing Blaine.  Have always envied UK modellers who have super illustrations in the modelling magazines that show locos and the rakes they pulled.  Maybe this will start a ball rolling for modellers of the Irish scene. 

Just curious.  What's the difference between IR and Full IR.  I see that IRM lists 4 Irish Rail versions - 054, 017, 036 and 048 - but none mentions Full IR.  

Also, any details of liveries that pulled the ammonia tankers?  

"Full IR' probably means IR with the white stripes.

"IR" probably means ST livery with the IR logo tacked on.

[Blaine]

10 minutes ago, Billycan said:

Great listing Blaine.  Have always envied UK modellers who have super illustrations in the modelling magazines that show locos and the rakes they pulled.  Maybe this will start a ball rolling for modellers of the Irish scene. 

Just curious.  What's the difference between IR and Full IR.  I see that IRM lists 4 Irish Rail versions - 054, 017, 036 and 048 - but none mentions Full IR.  

Also, any details of liveries that pulled the ammonia tankers?  

Never said 'Full IR'

Supertrain with IR logos (IRM 007/056) was an interim livery, best worn by 047, but also by 141/181's, 156 wearing it the longest. 047 was a special loco, never broke down, so never repainted... 

IR - Irish Rail (IRM 017, 036, 048 and 054) is the fully lined version from 1987 onwards following the breakup of CIE into business sector's. Was never referred to as 'tippex' livery either back then. Not every loco had the dayglo panels either, they lost effectiveness quickly when they got dirty

Re Ammonia, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos and IR. Ammonia started in 1978

 

[DJ Dangerous]

7 minutes ago, Blaine said:

Never said 'Full IR'

Supertrain with IR logos (IRM 007/056) was an interim livery, best worn by 047, but also by 141/181's, 156 wearing it the longest. 047 was a special loco, never broke down, so never repainted... 

IR - Irish Rail (IRM 017, 036, 048 and 054) is the fully lined version from 1987 onwards following the breakup of CIE into business sector's. Was never referred to as 'tippex' livery either back then. Not every loco had the dayglo panels either, they lost effectiveness quickly when they got dirty

Re Ammonia, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos and IR. Ammonia started in 1978

 

Another excellent post!!!

Thank you!

P.S.: It says "Full IR" just after the Fert Liners.

[Mayner]

The 001 Class appear to have been regularly rostered on Connolly-Rosslare services during early 1990s, travelled behind on in a MK2D set between Rosslare Harbour and Connolly in July 93.

The 001 Class continued to be rostered on some of the lighter Intercity diagrams including a Heuston-Waterford diagram after the 071s & pairs of Bo Bos took over the heavier Intercity diagrams in the late 1970s 

 

 

 

[DiveController]

21 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

It says "Full IR" just after the Fert Liners.

I think that you can take it that Full IR means fully lined/fully repainted/re-liveried IR livery and anything else is a transitional livery with the 'temporary' rebranding with new logos on a precedent livery

Edited April 22, 2021 by DiveController
My spellchecker is somewhat illiterate

[DJ Dangerous]

5 hours ago, DiveController said:

I thin that you can take it that Full IR means fully lined/fully repainted/re-liveried IR livery and anything else is a transitional livery with the 'temporary' rebranding with new logos on a precedent livery

Just as I'd assumed.

[Blaine]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

The 001 Class appear to have been regularly rostered on Connolly-Rosslare services during early 1990s, travelled behind on in a MK2D set between Rosslare Harbour and Connolly in July 93.

The 001 Class continued to be rostered on some of the lighter Intercity diagrams including a Heuston-Waterford diagram after the 071s & pairs of Bo Bos took over the heavier Intercity diagrams in the late 1970s 

They also were used on the Enterprise then too, right up until the early 90's. Frequently heard their distinctive roar in the distance as they headed through Portmarnock

[jhb171achill]

Excellent list regarding what goes with what; I think that for any scale model (as opposed to “toy” train set) it will encourage both manufacturers Tierra and buyers to produce a model if (a) there is widespread knowledge of what ran with it, and (b) there are models available of suitable stock.

The list above is very informative for the later liveries, from the late “black’n’tan” era onwards.

For the “grey’n’green” era, we have the silver liveried “A” class examples, the green ones and the black ones. A suitable list for them would be as follows:

SILVER A (& C & B101)

All coaching stock green except any brand-new laminates and (briefly) Park Royals; mostly lighter shade but some older vehicles still darker shade.

1. Wooden bogies (almost all GSWR) by this stage

2. Bredins

3. 1951-3 CIE stock

4.  Cork - Youghal excursions: old six-wheelers of GSWR & MGWR origin.

5. New (silver) “laminates”, especially for silver locos. As the silver locos were repainted green, so were the silver carriages.

6. Like the above, Park Royals. First ones silver when new and quickly repainted green, but later ones green (with silver bogies) when new.

GREEN locos

All of the above, but in the last few years of this livery, a minority of coaches now starting to appear in black’n’tan.

Once the locos started appearing in black or black’n’tan (the two overlapped to an extent), green carriages are about 40/60 green/BnT. By c.1967/8, all green gone.

Six-wheelers (apart from 3 or 4 full brakes) vanish in early 1963, just as the black’n’tan livery has started to spread.

In the black or black’n’tan liveries of the 1960s, the “A” class are used mainly on goods trains, with AEC railcars and the 121 / 141 / 181 classes dealing with passengers.

WAGONS

In all of the above, all wagons are grey. All guards vans are grey, with extremely few exceptions; red Ranks grain wagons or black tank wagons being the only exceptions I can think of. 
 

There were no brown wagons or vans at all, until 1970.

 

 

[BSGSV]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

The 001 Class appear to have been regularly rostered on Connolly-Rosslare services during early 1990s, travelled behind on in a MK2D set between Rosslare Harbour and Connolly in July 93.

In the early 90's, until the arrival of the (new) 201 Class and the first railcars, IR were badly strapped for motive power. Failures were common and the locos would be sent back out with a sticking plaster on, as there was nothing else. An A on the Rosslare road was an alternative to the frequent appearance of a single Bo-Bo.

[Billycan]

On 21/4/2021 at 1:09 PM, Blaine said:

Single-stripe Cravens... - Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Twin-stripe cravens...IR 

ST Mk2D's...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR

IR Mk2D's...Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

CIE Ballast wagons...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR

IR Ballast Wagons...Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Gypsums...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Blue Tara's...Supertrain

Red Tara's...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR 

Orange Bubbles...Black and Tan, Supertrain

Grey Bubbles...Black and Tan, Supertrain

Ivory Bubbles...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR

42' Container Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR 

Fert Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos,  IR 

Guinness Keg Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, Supertrain with IR logos, IR . - The Guinness Cages came later, late 90's

 

Rough Year Guide

Black and Tan livery 1968-1976

Supertrain livery 1972 - 1988

Supertrain with IR logos 1987-1992

IR livery - 1987-1995

Returning to the listing especially

Ivory Bubbles...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR

Were the Irish Cement Ivory Bubbles also Supertrain with IR logos, IR - or was there any difference?

 

 

[Blaine]

2 hours ago, Billycan said:

Returning to the listing especially

Ivory Bubbles...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR

Were the Irish Cement Ivory Bubbles also Supertrain with IR logos, IR - or was there any difference?

 

 

Yes, Irish Cement was heavily pushed as a brand from the mid 80's onwards so it definitely would have featured as the Bubbles were overhauled instead of the 'CIE Bulk Cement' branding, even when the Bubbles were at the end of their lives there was at least one with CIE Bulk Cement branding under the caked on cement 

Supertrain with IR is an interim livery, from 1987 there was a push to get rid of the 'Broken Circle' logo as quickly as possible (on passenger trains and stations at least), even though there are still signs in certain places with the CIE logo today. Still plenty of freight then, so more Locos were needed instead of being set aside for new paint

The IR logo lasted a relatively short 7 years, 1987-1994, as the company fancied a rebrand with the massive investment which brought the 201's,2600 railcars and lots of infrastructure renewal and upgrades, hence the IE Fork logo

Edited April 25, 2021 by Blaine

[Billycan]

On 25/4/2021 at 11:02 AM, Billycan said:

Returning to the listing especially

Ivory Bubbles...Supertrain with IR logos,  IR

Were the Irish Cement Ivory Bubbles also Supertrain with IR logos, IR - or was there any difference?

 

 

Thanks to DJ Dangerous for listing the passenger & freight stock and to Blaine for listing the liveries I've been able put together a page that helps me to relate the A-Class locos to rolling stock.  Some modellers on here might find it helpful too.  Not sure if I've got everything right, so if anyone wants to suggest correction edits I'm happy to make them.

A-Class Liveries.pdf

[PJR]

That's a brilliant resource. Well done

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, Billycan said:

Thanks to DJ Dangerous for listing the passenger & freight stock and to Blaine for listing the liveries I've been able put together a page that helps me to relate the A-Class locos to rolling stock.  Some modellers on here might find it helpful too.  Not sure if I've got everything right, so if anyone wants to suggest correction edits I'm happy to make them.

A-Class Liveries.pdf 1.17 MB · 9 downloads

Awesome sauce!

I think that the container liners would only have been the red-oxide-bogie ones, not the black-bogie ones.

Not sure if that's worth noting.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Awesome sauce!

I think that the container liners would only have been the red-oxide-bogie ones, not the black-bogie ones.

Not sure if that's worth noting.

Very much so. Black bogies on anything are a comparatively recent thing: for example, you wouldn’t have them with the likes of Bell containers.

[Noel]

5 hours ago, Billycan said:

Thanks to DJ Dangerous for listing the passenger & freight stock and to Blaine for listing the liveries I've been able put together a page that helps me to relate the A-Class locos to rolling stock.  Some modellers on here might find it helpful too.  Not sure if I've got everything right, so if anyone wants to suggest correction edits I'm happy to make them.

A-Class Liveries.pdf 1.17 MB · 27 downloads

It would be great to see how Park Royals, Laminates, Bredin's, and Mk3 stock fitted into that useful diagram as well as the different era GSVs.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

It would be great to see how Park Royals, Laminates, Bredin's, and Mk3 stock fitted into that useful diagram as well as the different era GSVs.

As per warbonnet's post, the A Class didn't haul the Mk3's.

We don't yet have any of those coaches RTR so they may just clutter the graphic rather than adding utility.

[Billycan]

4 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Awesome sauce!

I think that the container liners would only have been the red-oxide-bogie ones, not the black-bogie ones.

Not sure if that's worth noting.

DJ, The image of the liner is from the IFM website and I take it that it has the red oxide bogies.  Should I have used a different image from the website?  JB mentions that the black bogies are more recent.  Do I need another row in the chart and if so what liveries would apply?

1 hour ago, Noel said:

It would be great to see how Park Royals, Laminates, Bredin's, and Mk3 stock fitted into that useful diagram as well as the different era GSVs.

That's the plan for a future chart Noel.  But I wanted to see if folks on here thought it worthwhile and I also wanted to sort out any correction edits on the previous chart.  If anyone has any suggestions or comments along the lines of what DJ Dangerous mentions send them along.  And now, to kick start the next chart which is for the 121s. 

The images of the coach and freight rolling stock are already in place, so I now need a similar listing of the 121 locomotive liveries to go with them (will probably need help with some 121 images).   For now, the question is, Which 121-Class locomotive liveries apply to the following (same list + the Ammonias)?

Single-stripe Cravens... 

Twin-stripe cravens...

ST Mk2D's...

IR Mk2D's...

CIE Ballast wagons...

IR Ballast Wagons...

Gypsums...

Blue Tara's...

Red Tara's...

Orange Bubbles...

Grey Bubbles...

Ivory Bubbles with CIE...

Irish Cement Ivory Bubbles...

42' Container Liners...

Fertilizer Liners...

Guinness Keg Liners...

Ammonia NET

Ammonia IFI

 

 

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, Noel said:

It would be great to see how Park Royals, Laminates, Bredin's, and Mk3 stock fitted into that useful diagram as well as the different era GSVs.

As others have said, much of the items you'd need to run with a silver or green "A" are not commercially available, and most of those that are, would be in kit form.

However, for information:

To run with “A” class locos in silver and green; the two overlapped.
Year	OTHER LOCOS (Also AEC Railcars with ALL)	PASSENGER	GOODS
1955   All silver	B101, steam	Old wooden bogie Green Old Six-wheelers Green Bredins  Green Early 1950s Bredin-like CIE Green New “Tin Vans” SILVER New Park Royals SILVER New Laminates SILVER	All wagons grey prior to 1970.   Flying snails on all
1956	B101, steam	Same as above, but silver coaches repainted green from c.1958, and all new stock after that green instead of silver.
1957	C, B101, steam
1958  Gradually repainted green
1959
1960
1961	Grey B121 plus above
1962	Grey B121 plus above
1963  Last few silver Black livery starts  (Dec 62)	Steam ends; Grey B121, C, B101, B141	1.        No more six-wheelers. 2.       Cravens introduced.	Very gradual replacement of flying snails with roundels
1964	Grey B121, C, B101, B141	Coaches gradually repainted black’n’tan from early 1963.	“H” vans painted a lighter grey
1965  Last few still green	B121, C, B101, B141	Last green coaches finally repainted black’n’tan c.1967	Palvans introduced, lighter grey

   121 liveries

- Delivered in grey 1961

- First repaints into black'n'tan circa 1964

- Last repaints into black'n'tan circa 1967

- "Supertrain" livery (no white lines) 1972 - 1987 (Last repaints out of old black'n'tan into "supertrain" approx. 1976/77

- "Tippex" white lines added from 1987 onwards - several retained older livery for several years afterwards.

The final livery WITH white lines was of course, initially with the "set of points" logo, and later the "three-pin-plug" logo.

[DJ Dangerous]

26 minutes ago, Billycan said:

DJ, The image of the liner is from the IFM website and I take it that it has the red oxide bogies.  Should I have used a different image from the website?  JB mentions that the black bogies are more recent.  Do I need another row in the chart and if so what liveries would apply?

You have the correct red-oxide bogies in the image. The black are only ten or fifteen years old (thanks to JHB for that info elsewhere), so wouldn't have run with the A Class.

I think that where models are concerned, only the IRM spoils have black bogies, but I'm open to correction.

I mentioned it in case you wanted to add a note in the text box in the centre, saying "red bogies only" or something to that effect.

[jhb171achill]

17 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

You have the correct red-oxide bogies in the image. The black are only ten or fifteen years old (thanks to JHB for that info elsewhere), so wouldn't have run with the A Class.

I think that where models are concerned, only the IRM spoils have black bogies, but I'm open to correction.

I mentioned it in case you wanted to add a note in the text box in the centre, saying "red bogies only" or something to that effect.

Not even ten or fifteen, I would be pretty certain...... most definitely not with an "A".

[Billycan]

17 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

You have the correct red-oxide bogies in the image. The black are only ten or fifteen years old (thanks to JHB for that info elsewhere), so wouldn't have run with the A Class.

I think that where models are concerned, only the IRM spoils have black bogies, but I'm open to correction.

I mentioned it in case you wanted to add a note in the text box in the centre, saying "red bogies only" or something to that effect.

'Red Bogies' added.  Thanks for that.

[Billycan]

2 hours ago, Billycan said:

DJ, The image of the liner is from the IFM website and I take it that it has the red oxide bogies.  Should I have used a different image from the website?  JB mentions that the black bogies are more recent.  Do I need another row in the chart and if so what liveries would apply?

That's the plan for a future chart Noel.  But I wanted to see if folks on here thought it worthwhile and I also wanted to sort out any correction edits on the previous chart.  If anyone has any suggestions or comments along the lines of what DJ Dangerous mentions send them along.  And now, to kick start the next chart which is for the 121s. 

The images of the coach and freight rolling stock are already in place, so I now need a similar listing of the 121 locomotive liveries to go with them (will probably need help with some 121 images).   For now, the question is, Which 121-Class locomotive liveries apply to the following (same list + the Ammonias)?

Single-stripe Cravens... 

Twin-stripe cravens...

ST Mk2D's...

IR Mk2D's...

CIE Ballast wagons...

IR Ballast Wagons...

Gypsums...

Blue Tara's...

Red Tara's...

Orange Bubbles...

Grey Bubbles...

Ivory Bubbles with CIE...

Irish Cement Ivory Bubbles...

42' Container Liners...

Fertilizer Liners...

Guinness Keg Liners...

Ammonia NET

Ammonia IFI

 

 

Thanks for your reply JB and for reminding me about the IE Livery.  I should have mentioned in this post that for the 121s I plan to work with 4 of the Murphy Models locos.  That is, Black, Supertrain, IR Orange and IE Livery.  

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Billycan said:

Thanks for your reply JB and for reminding me about the IE Livery.  I should have mentioned in this post that for the 121s I plan to work with 4 of the Murphy Models locos.  That is, Black, Supertrain, IR Orange and IE Livery.  

You’ve a great scope for variety there, Billycan. With those four, you’ve covered 1963-2003 - forty years!