Officials to bypass Stormont deadlock to publish review of island's rail network

[spudfan]

Not happening yet but hopefully there is something in the offing. I particularly like the bit about scrapping some of the greenways and getting more support for freight. There is also the snippet about a rail line from Letterkenny to Derry. Been mooted for years but it is nice to see these things put down on paper. Hope this paper does not get filed away with the other bits of pro rail reports.

Officials to bypass Stormont deadlock to publish review of island's rail network (msn.com)

Edited April 10, 2023 by spudfan

[Branchline121]

It's good to see the possibility of more rail reopenings, so hopefully that happens (and the northernmost MGWR line in the east reopens!)

Maybe this is impossible to answer, but what was the line with the highest ridership to close?

 

[Patrick Davey]

It is interesting to speculate on the route and operation of any future line from Derry to Letterkenny.  Presumably as this would be a brand new line, it would take a southerly route out of Derry rather than follow a longer northerly route as the Swilly line did.

Also, as the talk is about 'reconnecting' Donegal to the rail network, would this line somehow connect to NIR metals at Waterside, presumably via a new (and expensive!) bridge..... OR would it exist in isolation, in the style of The Waterford and Tramore Railway.....

Plus.... who would actually own it....and work it........?

Have plans been drawn up I wonder........

[Mayner]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:04 PM, Branchline121 said:

It's good to see the possibility of more rail reopenings, so hopefully that happens (and the northernmost MGWR line in the east reopens!)

Maybe this is impossible to answer, but what was the line with the highest ridership to close?

 

Most likely Portadown -Derry and Belfast-Comber

Passenger traffic on the Derry Road appears to have held up well until closure with, long trains and relatively frequent passenger service by Irish standards.

Belfast-Comber appears to have been a busy commuter line with heavy passenger traffic.

Most closed CIE lines had sparse services (1-2 trains daily) and carried light traffic.

[StevieB]

Let’s not forget that most of the Derry Road between Strabane and Londonderry was actually in the ROI rather than NI and so was part of the CIE network. How did that work?

Stephen

[airfixfan]

Those GNR stations in County Donegal were staffed by CIE after 1958

[StevieB]

Presumably all the service trains were provided by UTA. How did they divi up the costs and takings, an accountant’s heaven?

Stephen

[Noel]

Yes it would be great to see these reopened rather than more daft greenways:

• Foynes
• Waterford-Wexford
• Midleton (Cork) - Youghal
• Athenry-Claremorris 
• . . . and perhaps even one day Sligo Claremorris??

Strange as it might sound, a little birdie suggested that Youghal chamber of commerce actually voted against the 9km rail line link to Cork being reopened as it would invite anti-social behaviour from Cork City out to Youghal at weekends. In Any event its not their call. The commuter traffic from Youghal to Cork city every morning is substantial. In the era of urgent climate action would it not make more sense to run cleaner trains rather than cars? Hopefully common sense will prevail. Its encouraging to see that Ballybrophy line linking Nenagh and Limerick had a major update this fast few years. It had been on the vulnerable list. Hopefully brexit might bring more traffic to the Waterford-Limerick cross country line (ie tomorrow's Tailte rail tour), especially when linked back to Rosslare port.

The countries two principle greenways 'Westport' and 'Dungarvan' are truly excellent with absolutely stunning scenic views (ie: sea, cliffs, mountains, rivers, viaducts, tunnels). By Comparison others have hardly any visual scenery to see except mile after mile of midland boring hedgerows and bogs. I have enjoyed both the Westport and Dungarvan trails. Superb hospitality infrastructure along the routes. But peddling along the Dungarvan line all I can hear in my head is baby GM notching and scenes from Joe St Ledge films of the line (eg IRRS videos). Happy days its all looking promising.

 

[airfixfan]

2 hours ago, StevieB said:

Presumably all the service trains were provided by UTA. How did they divi up the costs and takings, an accountant’s heaven?

Stephen

That's another reason all the intermeddiate stations in Donegal.had such a sparse service after 1958 except on Saturday!

[Branchline121]

On 14/4/2023 at 12:00 AM, Patrick Davey said:

It is interesting to speculate on the route and operation of any future line from Derry to Letterkenny.  Presumably as this would be a brand new line, it would take a southerly route out of Derry rather than follow a longer northerly route as the Swilly line did.

Also, as the talk is about 'reconnecting' Donegal to the rail network, would this line somehow connect to NIR metals at Waterside, presumably via a new (and expensive!) bridge..... OR would it exist in isolation, in the style of The Waterford and Tramore Railway.....

Plus.... who would actually own it....and work it........?

Have plans been drawn up I wonder........

The old GNRI station used to connect up to Waterside via the lower deck of the Craigavon Bridge, but seen as that is nowadays a road, I don't know how it would play out.

[Galteemore]

7 hours ago, Branchline121 said:

The old GNRI station used to connect up to Waterside via the lower deck of the Craigavon Bridge, but seen as that is nowadays a road, I don't know how it would play out.

That was only used for transferring wagons via rope haulage and turntables afaik, rather than being a proper loco-worked line. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Galteemore

[StevieB]

The trouble with strategies is that they are high level overviews only. Reconnecting Letterkenny to the railway network in Ireland comes into that category, a very good idea but how do you achieve it? In this day and age, rebuilding old lines is far more likely than new build.

Stephen

[Auto-Train Original]

I honestly can't see the Derry to Letterkenny thing as just talk.

The Derry Road is the only game in town for serious reopening and would technically, provide rail service to 'Donegal'.

[Westcorkrailway]

15 minutes ago, Auto-Train Original said:

I honestly can't see the Derry to Letterkenny thing as just talk.

The Derry Road is the only game in town for serious reopening and would technically, provide rail service to 'Donegal'.

Unless it was a new branch of the derry road? 

[Auto-Train Original]

On 19/4/2023 at 1:13 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Unless it was a new branch of the derry road? 

yes that is more sensible than a direct link to Derry. Most passengers would be going south from Letterkenny anyway.

 

[Branchline121]

Seems they’re planning to get it out this month according to https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/17/atlantic-railway-spine-from-ballina-to-rosslare-and-higher-speed-intercity-travel-proposed-in-rail-review/, although the question is whether it will actually go through? Hopefully. There’s talk about reopening Athenry-Claremorris, South Wexford, Derry Road, and lines through Monaghan, Cavan (hopefully Kingscourt), and a new line in Donegal. Not much about upgrades to infrastructure (electrification, doubling, or signalling) but that may be because of the article cherrypicking the reports about new lines and not just improvements to existing track.

[leslie10646]

Oh to live to be a hundred - I need steam over some of the proposed reopenings.

INCLUDING Strabane to Derry - I chickened out of a run there in December 1964 - I did the rest of the line with S Class, moguls and tank engines.

It should never have closed.

[jhb171achill]

Call me an oul cynic; but I'll believe ANY reopening when I see it. They've been prattling on about all manner of reopenings, and freight hubs and the like for decades.

Successive governments, of ALL political parties north and south have not looked forward to plan anything for their grandchildren probably ever. It's all about what gets them the next election; and idle talk and soundbites do that just fine.

Edited July 18, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Darrman]

Certainly I'd like to see it happen, but knowing this country, I won't hold my breath.

I do wonder what the idea for Cavan and Monaghan is though. Since they didn't give hint as to what towns the line might pass through I can only speculate.

Legend:

Yellow: Electrified/proposed to be under Dart+
Orange: Operational
Brown: Navan Branch - goods only
Blue: Proposed Navan railway/my guess on the Cavan/Monaghan railway
Green: Greenwayed
Black: Closed

Red dot: Operational station
Green dot: Projected locations (Navan) / my guesses (Cavan/Monaghan)
White dot: Closed station

I based my crayon-drawing speculation on the 1906 railway map. I can't think of any other route that covers both Cavan and Monaghan but the GNR from Dundalk to Clones, before turning south to Cavan town and then the MGWR on to Mullingar. Realignments to avoid town centres and the six border crossings in a handful of miles would be necessary - I placed stations in villages with at least 1,000 population on the new line. 

I do wonder what the fate of the Navan Branch will be - with Tara Mines "temporarily" closed and passenger plans using the MGWR line to Navan, it doesn't appear to have any further use currently. I can't see Irish Rail deciding to introduce Navan-Drogheda shuttles - nobody would go from Navan to Dublin via Drogheda if the new railway is built, but on the other side of the coin, I can't see the new railway being built any time soon. Hopefully they at least release the draft soon - politics means the final report probably won't be released for a long time, if ever.

[DoctorPan]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Call me an oul cynic; but I'll believe ANY reopening when I see it. They've been prattling on about all manner of reopenings, and freight hubs and the like for decades.

Successive governments, of ALL political parties north and south have not looked forward to plan anything for their grandchildren probably ever. It's all about what gets them the next election; and idle talk and soundbites do that just fine.

While you are totally justified in your cynicism Jonathan as someone who works in the industry, this is different. The entire industry has changed. Prior to 2022, there was one major company that offered a rail deisgn team in Ireland besides Irish Rail. There's at least now 12 firms offering rail services with Irish teams, (hell I was poached to a rivial company to help set up their team) and Irish Rail hasn't stopped hiring civil engineers since 2020, at the moment I think theres nearly 100 vaccenices on the website. One or two firms deciding to gamble on Irish expansion, I'd wouldn't be so confident but the expansion of firms and Irish Rail suggest that these projects will be delivered and the loss of institution knowledge that occured since the 2000s won't be repeated again.

 

Plus from a finanical side of things, we're about to be fined daily for not reaching carbon targets so increases in railfreight and decarbonastion of exisitng railways suddenly make a lot more finanical sense. Thirdly the management side of Irish Rail have woken up to the fact that Rail Freight means money into their pockets that they can spend themselves instead of having to pay their NTA masters.

 

Oh and Fourthly, having spoken to contacts in DoT, Ryan ran his term in the understanding that he's only going to get a one term chance to implement his policies as the Greens would suffer the fate of all junior partners and be wiped out in the next election, hence his quite hands on approach to a lot of things, including his battles to get project planning revamped in the government. He is reportably furious at how long it has taken to roll out the network section of Bus Connects Dublin, let alone the infrastructure side of things- and that's before we get to BC Cork, Galway and Waterford and the DART + projects.

Edited July 19, 2023 by DoctorPan

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, Darrman said:

Certainly I'd like to see it happen, but knowing this country, I won't hold my breath.

I do wonder what the idea for Cavan and Monaghan is though. Since they didn't give hint as to what towns the line might pass through I can only speculate.

Legend:

Yellow: Electrified/proposed to be under Dart+
Orange: Operational
Brown: Navan Branch - goods only
Blue: Proposed Navan railway/my guess on the Cavan/Monaghan railway
Green: Greenwayed
Black: Closed

Red dot: Operational station
Green dot: Projected locations (Navan) / my guesses (Cavan/Monaghan)
White dot: Closed station

I based my crayon-drawing speculation on the 1906 railway map. I can't think of any other route that covers both Cavan and Monaghan but the GNR from Dundalk to Clones, before turning south to Cavan town and then the MGWR on to Mullingar. Realignments to avoid town centres and the six border crossings in a handful of miles would be necessary - I placed stations in villages with at least 1,000 population on the new line. 

I do wonder what the fate of the Navan Branch will be - with Tara Mines "temporarily" closed and passenger plans using the MGWR line to Navan, it doesn't appear to have any further use currently. I can't see Irish Rail deciding to introduce Navan-Drogheda shuttles - nobody would go from Navan to Dublin via Drogheda if the new railway is built, but on the other side of the coin, I can't see the new railway being built any time soon. Hopefully they at least release the draft soon - politics means the final report probably won't be released for a long time, if ever.

It would make more sense from an engineering and financial perspective to build a railway to serve Cavan. Monaghan or Donegal for that matter on an entirely new (more direct) alignment, than to attempt to re-open indirect routes that were abandoned over 60 years ago. 

It would be necessary to go through the planning process and obtain powers of compulsory purchase to acquire the right of way regardless of whether its intended to re-open an abandoned route or build a line on an entirely new route. The powers to build and operate a railway were extinguished when the lines were abandoned during the 50s and 60s and the right of way disposed of to adjoining landowners. The Government/NTA have to buy back Pace-Navan trackbed from the landowners before work can start on re-opening to Navan.

Personally I think the re-opening of lines in the Border/Midlands Region unlikely to happen, relatively low population and the challenge of the Irish and UK Governments co-funding such a project, much simpler to provide subsidies for electric cars.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

While you are totally justified in your cynicism Jonathan as someone who works in the industry, this is different. The entire industry has changed. Prior to 2022, there was one major company that offered a rail deisgn team in Ireland besides Irish Rail. There's at least now 12 firms offering rail services with Irish teams, (hell I was poached to a rivial company to help set up their team) and Irish Rail hasn't stopped hiring civil engineers since 2020, at the moment I think theres nearly 100 vaccenices on the website. One or two firms deciding to gamble on Irish expansion, I'd wouldn't be so confident but the expansion of firms and Irish Rail suggest that these projects will be delivered and the loss of institution knowledge that occured since the 2000s won't be repeated again.

 

Plus from a finanical side of things, we're about to be fined daily for not reaching carbon targets so increases in railfreight and decarbonastion of exisitng railways suddenly make a lot more finanical sense. Thirdly the management side of Irish Rail have woken up to the fact that Rail Freight means money into their pockets that they can spend themselves instead of having to pay their NTA masters.

 

Oh and Fourthly, having spoken to contacts in DoT, Ryan ran his term in the understanding that he's only going to get a one term chance to implement his policies as the Greens would suffer the fate of all junior partners and be wiped out in the next election, hence his quite hands on approach to a lot of things, including his battles to get project planning revamped in the government. He is reportably furious at how long it has taken to roll out the network section of Bus Connects Dublin, let alone the infrastructure side of things- and that's before we get to BC Cork, Galway and Waterford and the DART + projects.

That’s very reassuring, DoctorPan, good stuff!

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, Mayner said:

It would make more sense from an engineering and financial perspective to build a railway to serve Cavan. Monaghan or Donegal for that matter on an entirely new (more direct) alignment, than to attempt to re-open indirect routes that were abandoned over 60 years ago. 

It would be necessary to go through the planning process and obtain powers of compulsory purchase to acquire the right of way regardless of whether its intended to re-open an abandoned route or build a line on an entirely new route. The powers to build and operate a railway were extinguished when the lines were abandoned during the 50s and 60s and the right of way disposed of to adjoining landowners. The Government/NTA have to buy back Pace-Navan trackbed from the landowners before work can start on re-opening to Navan.

Personally I think the re-opening of lines in the Border/Midlands Region unlikely to happen, relatively low population and the challenge of the Irish and UK Governments co-funding such a project, much simpler to provide subsidies for electric cars.

Indeed.

Several of the proposed "Re"-openings would almost certainly need to be on new alignments at least in part. Any attempt at anything resembling the Derry Road would need to face very major diversions in and around Portadown itself, Dungannon, and especially Omagh and Strabane. The UTA & Stormont Government did a very efficient job in ensuring maximum difficulty in resurrecting anything.

ANY type of link with Letterkenny would have to be a completely new route. The tortuous route between Strabane and Letterkenny, apart from being narrow gauge, probably was twice the mileage of a direct route. A new line would have to cross the Foyle via a new bridge, and head down the old GN line a short distance before turning inland. A Derry-Letterkenny route via Strabane wouldn't even begin to make sense, even if the CDR line from Strabane to Letterkenny HAD been straight.

Both administrations should pass laws that if there ever comes a day when any existing railway infrastructure has its use discontinued, the right of way remains with the state, and remains protected; this to include station sites. Yes, Dublin port, we're looking at you.

[Signal Post]

Sean Moncrieff on Newstalk did a piece on this very topic yesterday and decided to interview someone who knows what he is talking about, namely railway historian and writer Jonathan Beaumont (aka @jhb171achill of this parish).

https://www.goloudplayer.com/episodes/the-history-of-irish-railways-N2IyMDYzZWMyODA3MjVhN2VhYjZhNzk5ZmVjOWQyZG

An informative talk and I suspect that Jonathan's modesty precluded him posting the link here himself.

[leslie10646]

Get the Swiss in, they’d build a Strabane - Letterkenny line as an underground Neubaustrecke and Bob’s uncle! Strabane to Letterkenny in 15 minutes ……

Switzerland has railways everywhere, hourly, connecting services - all serving a population just twice that of Ireland (and a lot of tourists). What price catenary over Barnesmore?

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Get the Swiss in, they’d build a Strabane - Letterkenny line as an underground Neubaustrecke and Bob’s uncle! Strabane to Letterkenny in 15 minutes ……

Switzerland has railways everywhere, hourly, connecting services - all serving a population just twice that of Ireland (and a lot of tourists). What price catenary over Barnesmore?

Now THAT would be something. But the good folks of Barnesmore don't speak Swiss................

[Branchline121]

Good to see there’s a future in sight for Irish Rail, even if it doesn’t include the Kingscourt line… I do wonder though, with the EU’s first railway directive having been adopted I imagine we might see companies like DB Cargo operating services around the country, although I imagine Irish Rail would issue a gnarly operating fee.

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, Branchline121 said:

Good to see there’s a future in sight for Irish Rail, even if it doesn’t include the Kingscourt line… I do wonder though, with the EU’s first railway directive having been adopted I imagine we might see companies like DB Cargo operating services around the country, although I imagine Irish Rail would issue a gnarly operating fee.

IE implemented the directive by opening up access to the rail network about 15 years ago, but apart from the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland no one appears to have been interested. https://www.crr.ie/economic-regulation/access-to-the-rail-network/. There was talk in the early 2000s of a UK "Open Access" operator entering the Irish Market to operate a rail borne distribution service using rail for "Line Haul" work with road delivery and collection, the business failed to take off in the UK or Ireland.

The lack of heavy industry like steel mills, motor manufacture, large rail served quarries, and large coal/bio-fueled power stations in Ireland means there is little in the way of heavy profitable freight flows for rail in Ireland. Importing Bio-fuel (sawmill waste) through Scottish ports to burn in Power Stations in the North of England and transporting stone from Somerset to London by rail has not exactly got a lower carbon footprint than ESB burning oil and coal in its coastal power stations or Roadstone supplying stone by road to Irish cities from locally located quarries.

DB Cargo and other UK 'Open Operator" success is based on serving heavy industry of a type that does not exist in Ireland and the UK Government subsidising rail access charges.

Kingscourt is unlikely to be a runner for Gypsum traffic unless Cement Limited or Gyproc paid to extend the line from its current terminus to the mines near Carrickmacross and invested in a modern fleet or high capacity wagons.

[airfixfan]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Now THAT would be something. But the good folks of Barnesmore don't speak Swiss................

Nor do the Swiss!

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, Mayner said:

IE implemented the directive by opening up access to the rail network about 15 years ago, but apart from the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland no one appears to have been interested. https://www.crr.ie/economic-regulation/access-to-the-rail-network/. There was talk in the early 2000s of a UK "Open Access" operator entering the Irish Market to operate a rail borne distribution service using rail for "Line Haul" work with road delivery and collection, the business failed to take off in the UK or Ireland.

The lack of heavy industry like steel mills, motor manufacture, large rail served quarries, and large coal/bio-fueled power stations in Ireland means there is little in the way of heavy profitable freight flows for rail in Ireland. Importing Bio-fuel (sawmill waste) through Scottish ports to burn in Power Stations in the North of England and transporting stone from Somerset to London by rail has not exactly got a lower carbon footprint than ESB burning oil and coal in its coastal power stations or Roadstone supplying stone by road to Irish cities from locally located quarries.

DB Cargo and other UK 'Open Operator" success is based on serving heavy industry of a type that does not exist in Ireland and the UK Government subsidising rail access charges.

Kingscourt is unlikely to be a runner for Gypsum traffic unless Cement Limited or Gyproc paid to extend the line from its current terminus to the mines near Carrickmacross and invested in a modern fleet or high capacity wagons.

This, indeed, is the harsh reality.

[leslie10646]

13 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Nor do the Swiss!

Well done Jim, sorting out Beaumont’s linguistic failings!
 

JB, while I doubt if too many Barnesmore residents speak Swiss German, French or Italian, they might have a dig at official Swiss language No. 4 Romansch - if you studied Latin at school, you’d have a go. certainly the parish priests could have a go at it.

My suggested Strabane - Letterkenny tunnel wouldn’t take the Swiss long, having come through the 57kms of the new Gotthard Base tunnel today (20 minutes, top speed 189kph).

[Westcorkrailway]

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.gov.ie%2F264977%2F84a63257-d41d-4d13-804c-6e1142c4c629.pdf&fbclid=IwAR3wLIC7KPmGZUelTVJB15iGEwoFge7LKihQktv4JpXDcT7DmG11KfW5nTg_aem_ARyiwTxPawu-5fawC2Ng4747EV5kwYwbi1WK4wni4E_Hl06p-lrpiuoglcumFGt4_0E#page=null

[airfixfan]

Strabane to Derry straight forward as over 90% of former trackbed undeveloped beside River Foyle 

[Branchline121]

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.gov.ie%2F264977%2F84a63257-d41d-4d13-804c-6e1142c4c629.pdf&fbclid=IwAR3wLIC7KPmGZUelTVJB15iGEwoFge7LKihQktv4JpXDcT7DmG11KfW5nTg_aem_ARyiwTxPawu-5fawC2Ng4747EV5kwYwbi1WK4wni4E_Hl06p-lrpiuoglcumFGt4_0E#page=null

I can see why the Kingscourt branch line was excluded — low population, no connectivity, even less of a demand, but I’m still going to be disappointed; at least Dublin is getting more suburban lines, and the north is getting a respectable network too. If they can actually stick to this (unlike Transport 21, although I guess they did open the Midleton line) and have this: that would be great.

[Flying Snail]

It's nice to see a positive report, but we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. This is a (still only a draft) 'strategic review' that makes recommendations, there's been no decision yet to implement any of it.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Flying Snail