We Got A Flat - Announcing the Bulleid LB and PWD Flat Wagons

[Westcorkrailway]

Photo Posted on IRM Facebook:

Our latest announcement around the CIE Bulleid LB flat wagons have certainly struck a chord with modellers, with the pre-orders flying in fast!

To get the juices flowing, check out this little piece of prototype inspiration thanks to our friends at Irish Railway Record Society from Albert Quay in Cork, showing the varied traction that these wagons operated with during their careers, which were not just limited to diesel traction!

 

I will say I am not sure why both 90 and 552  are in Albert quay months after the West Cork closure. Interesting none the less. I can’t believe I never thought to check the IRRS archive for photos of these. 

 

one thing I found in the archive is below. What wagons are these? And are those snails???

 

 

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

one thing I found in the archive is below. What wagons are these? And are those snails???

 

 

Look like Carriage Trucks possibly ex-MGWR originally built to carry horse drawn carriages. Possibly used for delivery of cars by Passenger or Mail Train

Classified as non-passenger Coaching Stock capable of running in passenger trains with carriage style suspension and vaccum brakes. Heavy outside framing was a common design feature of most pre-amalgamation Carriage Trucks, the handbrake wheel was a feature of MGWR non-passenger stock, other companies used a handbrake lever.

Possible CIE removed the side planking leaving a panel for the snail logo.

Would have been painted green rather than grey in CIE days.

[Ironroad]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:43 PM, Ironroad said:

Are these the pre ISO containers (from Parkside/Peco) that Fran has indicated were carried by these flat wagons?   If so were they private owner  or were any owned by CIE and in what liveries etc.?

In a thread titled Irish/CIE Coal Wagons, Mayner posted a picture (Aug 17 2020) of CIE open 5 plank wagons carrying British Leyland containers of this type dating from about 1970. So is it possible that British Rail owned containers of this type were also  seen on Irish Rails (as produced by Bachmann)?

    

In  a partial answer to my own question,  I came across the following picture taken from a U Tube video. In the top right corner there is an open corrugated wagon with a British Rail BD container sitting in it.  But were these containers also carried on the LB flats, did CIE own any of these? and other than British Leyland were any other private owner BD containers carried. Oh and before anyone says it, while the video is titled The Wheels of Commerce 1961, the frame I'm referring to is obviously a much later date.

 

[MOGUL]

2 hours ago, Ironroad said:

In  a partial answer to my own question,  I came across the following picture taken from a U Tube video. In the top right corner there is an open corrugated wagon with a British Rail BD container sitting in it.  But were these containers also carried on the LB flats, did CIE own any of these? and other than British Leyland were any other private owner BD containers carried. Oh and before anyone says it, while the video is titled The Wheels of Commerce 1961, the frame I'm referring to is obviously a much later date.

 

One of the IRRS journals had a feature on the Waterford-Rosslare line with pics of BD containers in open wagons.. I have also seen pics of some BD wagons with a label saying they were carrying car parts for BMC, likely for assembly of knock down kits.. I have yet to find pics of BD containers on flat wagons, only later ISO type 20fts on 20ft skeletal flats.. Maybe it was felt they couldn't be sufficiently secured on a flat wagon(no twistlocks/Corner castings)..

Will try find that article when I have a chance..

CIE did have later aluminium non-ISO containers, again I have seen pics but don't have them handy right now.. Not sure if they had BD/timber bodied ones, the GNR(I) certainly did as modelled by @leslie10646

 

 

[WRENNEIRE]

 

 

 

Inchicore

[jhb171achill]

17 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

 

 

 

Inchicore

Wonder when those first appeared and finally disappeared?

There must have been quite a few as there was a time they seemed to be everywhere….

[Mayner]

18 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

 

 

 

Inchicore

The aluminium container appear to have been introduced in the early 60s possibly replaced(as rail containers) by CIE ISO containers late 60s/early 70s. 

May have been intended primarily for traffic to Donegal on the "Derry Vacuum" through Strabane and Waterside following the closure of the Derry Road. There are 1960s photos of what look like this type of container of the Derry Vacuum in both Colm Flannigan's Diesel Dawn (MPD hauled) and Tom Ferris Irish Railways in colour (WT hauled

The use of aluminium may have been influenced by the GNR which apparently used aluminium in lorry bodies and containers. 

CIE does not appear to have had container wagons as such during the 40s & 50s while the GNR built specialist container wagons for both general container traffic and bread traffic within Northern-Ireland from the 1940s onwards.

CIE introduced 235- 20'-12T-11'wb Vacuum fitted Flats intended for container traffic the early 60  including 3 Guinness Containers----------The 3 Guinness Containers had to be staggered on the GNR Conflats which were to short to allow the containers to be carried in line, possibly a factor in increasing the "standard" Irish wagon length from 16'11" to 20' over headstocks during the 1960s .

The 20'-12T flats appear to have been re-classified as Ballast Wagons during the early 70s, I found one 24566 dumped at Liffey Junction in 83-84.  These wagons had a handbrake wheel at one end, broken off in the photo of 24566

LB Flats and containers.  The apparent absence of photos of LB flats carrying containers may be due to their intended use as general purpose flats and the small volume of container traffic carried before CIE absorbed the GNR lines in the Republic. 

CIE appear to have built approximately 160 flat wagons between 1947 and 1963. 23200-23279 built between 1947-47 are likely to have been on similar design to GSWR and MGWR wagons built during the WW1 era or possibly single bolster flats intended for timber traffic. A single bolster wagon was stored at the Point Depot during the early 80s, but I didn't tale a photo at the time!

In comparison the GNR had 70 "Conflats" in service for general and Guinness container traffic, 141 Bread Container and 117 Flat/Low sided wagons in service by the mid-50.

It was probably easier for the CIE traffic people to allocate an open for container traffic than use a Flat!

Containers.

The South Wexford train in the Oliver Doyle IRRS article is a weekend special transporting meat in BR containers from Clover Meats Waterford to Rosslare, Harbour. On weekdays Clover Meats output was shipped directly on the BR Waterford-Milford Haven? freight service which dis not sail on the weekend.

During the 1950-60s export meat for the UK is likely to have been shipped to the ports in BR containers and then railed to various destinations in the UK, at the time BR controlling many of the shipping services to the UK.

Meat in containers became an important traffic in the 60s with factories in Rathkeale, Dromod and Roscrea sending out meat by rail, there was a note in Herman Shermans 'Day at the Junction' IRRS paper of a  AEC Railcars hauling container wagons on the  Limerick-Waterford Passenger during the late 60s.

The photo of the BR BMC Auto Parts containers in the Irish Standard open wagons appears to have been taken on the Ballina Branch during the early 70s possibly parts for Dealers and Motor Factors in the West rather than an Assembly Plant. 

Private Owner Containers.

Lyons Tea was regularly shipped in flat wagons in BR style containers during the 1960s, used to see a single Lyons container coupled close to an E Class making up a goods on the Kingsbridge Headshunt from the top deck of the 23 Bus on trips to town.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mayner

[Ironroad]

Many thanks to John for taking the time to provide such an amazingly detailed response to the questions I was asking.   

My objective was to establish legitimacy for using available models of British Rail containers as loads on Irish wagons and that looks to be the case, albeit not on the LB flats. However I got more than I bargained for.

The pictures already posted of standard BD  type containers would seem to prove that these were to be seen on Irish Rails with both British Rail logos and with BLMC (British Leyland) labels.  However while their use for the transportation of meat probably suggests there were significant numbers of these containers to be seen,  those used for this traffic were probably not of the standard type. British Rail had two variants for meat traffic, the BM container which was ventilated & in Crimson Lake, Maroon, & Bauxite liveries depending on period, and the FM which was insulated had a plywood body and white livery Both had different end doors to the BD.  Source; https://igg.org.uk/rail/5-unit/unitload1.htm

Since one question invariably leads to another it would be interesting to know if both BM and FM containers were used for Irish meat traffic.  

Since I'm not aware of models of the BM and FM variants I'll probably content myself with a few of the BD type.  One in Lyons Tea colours would be nice and perhaps a simple repaint job assuming the lettering can be found - may I ask what is the origin of the one in your picture John? Thanks

 

 

[murphaph]

Any pics of these different BR container variants for those of us with no clue about them?

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Many thanks to John for taking the time to provide such an amazingly detailed response to the questions I was asking.   

My objective was to establish legitimacy for using available models of British Rail containers as loads on Irish wagons and that looks to be the case, albeit not on the LB flats. However I got more than I bargained for.

The pictures already posted of standard BD  type containers would seem to prove that these were to be seen on Irish Rails with both British Rail logos and with BLMC (British Leyland) labels.  However while their use for the transportation of meat probably suggests there were significant numbers of these containers to be seen,  those used for this traffic were probably not of the standard type. British Rail had two variants for meat traffic, the BM container which was ventilated & in Crimson Lake, Maroon, & Bauxite liveries depending on period, and the FM which was insulated had a plywood body and white livery Both had different end doors to the BD.  Source; https://igg.org.uk/rail/5-unit/unitload1.htm

Since one question invariably leads to another it would be interesting to know if both BM and FM containers were used for Irish meat traffic.  

Since I'm not aware of models of the BM and FM variants I'll probably content myself with a few of the BD type.  One in Lyons Tea colours would be nice and perhaps a simple repaint job assuming the lettering can be found - may I ask what is the origin of the one in your picture John? Thanks

 

 

Lyons Tea container Peco card kit.  https://railwaymodels.uk/product-peco-r-66jl-lyons-tea-container

Phil   https://igg.org.uk/rail/5-unit/unitload1.htm provides an overview of UK Pre-ISO rail containers also used by the GNR, UTA and County Donegal.

Type B were the most common that appeared in Ireland  

Type B containers in 'Irish Standard" open wagons wooden under framed version (same as SSM kit)

Aluminium container on LL (early 1960s) flat. Possibly industrial alcohol from Ceimici Teoranta Kilcar County Donegal plant shipped by rail from Derry

Brian Flannigan's Flickr site is a great source of photos of Irish wagons and containers during the transition from loose coupled to Liner Train Operation https://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/

 

[Thomas Nolan]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:51 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

 

 

 

Inchicore

Still exists on site as of this month

[Ironroad]

14 hours ago, murphaph said:

Any pics of these different BR container variants for those of us with no clue about them?

I don't have pictures but these sketches may help, copied from https://igg.org.uk/rail/5-unit/unitload1.htm

[MOGUL]

9 hours ago, Thomas Nolan said:

Still exists on site as of this month

There’s one or two in yards in Stoneybatter also, given the high property values in that area they are likely on borrowed time

[leslie10646]

Stepping back through PW history, I oreivously did the following wagons. The first is a BR conflat in an approximation of GNR lettering fro their flats (I've done a couple of variations). A Dapol commision, which I'm considering a rerun of.

then later we did a flat with locators for the beer kegs - I have photos (not mine to show here) which show the type which seems to have been running in the early 1960s .

[MOGUL]

Spotted this pic of the CIE creosoting plant in the parting shot by Norman Johnston, it was taken in 1970 so predates the PWD flats but does show a similar wagon (likely a predecessor) awaiting loading with a fresh load of hot stick stick pine.. I would imagine the PWD flats were regularly loaded here @Warbonnet, sleeper loads on the cards?
 

Also of note is the extra broad gauge track for the overhead crane

Edited December 18, 2023 by MOGUL

[jhb171achill]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:02 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Photo Posted on IRM Facebook:

Our latest announcement around the CIE Bulleid LB flat wagons have certainly struck a chord with modellers, with the pre-orders flying in fast!

To get the juices flowing, check out this little piece of prototype inspiration thanks to our friends at Irish Railway Record Society from Albert Quay in Cork, showing the varied traction that these wagons operated with during their careers, which were not just limited to diesel traction!

 

I will say I am not sure why both 90 and 552  are in Albert quay months after the West Cork closure. Interesting none the less. I can’t believe I never thought to check the IRRS archive for photos of these. 

 

one thing I found in the archive is below. What wagons are these? And are those snails???

 

 

Bad photo, but they appear to be carriage trucks; and yes, snails on them.

[DiveController]

Can anyone shed some light on the nomenclature used by CIE for freight wagons?

What does LB mean (actually say LP on that photo, typo I'm sure)

And why a H-van? etc.

 

[jhb171achill]

They had a letter system just to show different types; the letters don't actually stand for anything. I don't know the origin of a two-letter code, though, like "LB".

Similar to the way our neighbours across the pond used oddball names of fish (seacow, etc) to designate different types.

Edited December 19, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

On 19/12/2023 at 5:14 AM, MOGUL said:

Spotted this pic of the CIE creosoting plant in the parting shot by Norman Johnston, it was taken in 1970 so predates the PWD flats but does show a similar wagon (likely a predecessor) awaiting loading with a fresh load of hot stick stick pine.. I would imagine the PWD flats were regularly loaded here @Warbonnet, sleeper loads on the cards?
 

Also of note is the extra broad gauge track for the overhead crane

Interesting one Mogul possibly another example of CIEs practice of rebuilding redundant wagons for PW use

The Flat in the photo appears to be another example of CIEs practice of converting redundant traffic wagons for PW purposes. The number on the end appears to be numbered in the 244xx series. Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE and NIR (1979) indicates that Ballast Wagons 24401-2415 were converted for 1953 built cattle wagons in 1964.

I haven't seen a photo of these particular wagons, traditionally GSWR/GSR/CIE Ballast Wagons were two plank dropside wagons with fixed ends, sometimes with end stanchions. Its possible the sides were removed from wagons used to carry sleepers. Sides and ends "Ballast Wagon" conversions carried out in the 70s 

The ballast wagons in the Ratio LNWR PW Wagon Pack were a reasonably close approximation of the GSWR/GSR/CIE two plank Ballast Wagon complete with Irish style brake gear, though shorter and on a wooden underframe. The Bolster Wagons in the set looked reasonably close to the "Irish Standard" version of the Flat Wagon.

Assembled many years ago this wagon has lost its brake lever, CIE Snail and stencil lettering was by Blackham Transfers. Transfers were rub-on with little scope for adjustment once in place.

Fixed ends with extended posts, Irish wagons tended to use a T angle

Edited December 20, 2023 by Mayner

[Mayner]

A mystery solved, there is a 1969 Tom Wall photo of 24401-24515 series Ballast Wagon 24514 in the IRRS Flickr album https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/51907052281/in/album-72157661623942928/  The photo is copyright and the download option is disabled.

The wagon is a 2 plank dropside with tapered steel end stanchions, the traditional Irish wooden underframe betrays its origin as a cattle wagon.

Interestingly the body (sides and ends) are painted red on a grey underframe, the wheel logo is positioned near the centre of the body.

There is also a photo of an older version of the 'Ballast Wagon" loaded with sleepers, sides removed and offcuts of rail used as stanchions,

Possibly a new wagon for Leslie, all my wagons run on the steel versions of the "Standard' underframe.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Mayner

[skinner75]

Even after resetting my Flickr password, I am getting a 403 error - no permission to view the page. Hey ho...

[leslie10646]

To reply to both the above.

John, interesting wagon. It  would have to be a new kit and that is no longer possible  since Michael's retirement - or at least if I was to get him to do a new one, I'd be after a wagon with potentially better sales! Like a horsebox?

That said, I can supply the chassis easily enough, if it is a 1948 cattle wagon.

Mr Skinner. I presume that you are a member of the IRRS? I understood that the archive in question was for members only. If you are a member, then contact Ciaran Cooney to get a new link?

Edited December 20, 2023 by leslie10646

[skinner75]

Ah, thanks Leslie - I've fired off a mail now to get access, as I am a member of the IRRS.

In the mail, I have also mentioned that the IRRS are free to use any of the pics I have from previous ITG tours - same to folk on here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/renniks75/albums/

Edited December 20, 2023 by skinner75

[Flying Snail]

1 hour ago, skinner75 said:

Ah, thanks Leslie - I've fired off a mail now to get access, as I am a member of the IRRS.

In the mail, I have also mentioned that the IRRS are free to use any of the pics I have from previous ITG tours - same to folk on here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/renniks75/albums/

Some nice pics there - thanks for sharing!

[DiveController]

On 20/12/2023 at 4:12 AM, Mayner said:

A mystery solved, there is a 1969 Tom Wall photo of 24401-24515 series Ballast Wagon 24514 in the IRRS Flickr album https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/51907052281/in/album-72157661623942928/  The photo is copyright and the download option is disabled.

The wagon is a 2 plank dropside with tapered steel end stanchions, the traditional Irish wooden underframe betrays its origin as a cattle wagon.

Interestingly the body (sides and ends) are painted red on a grey underframe, the wheel logo is positioned near the centre of the body.

There is also a photo of an older version of the 'Ballast Wagon" loaded with sleepers, sides removed and offcuts of rail used as stanchions,

Possibly a new wagon for Leslie, all my wagons run on the steel versions of the "Standard' underframe.

I konw

I know the photo you’re  referring to, the color scheme seeming quite out of place with any other opens or flats even as a PWD

[Mayner]

On 22/12/2023 at 12:21 PM, DiveController said:

I konw

I know the photo you’re  referring to, the color scheme seeming quite out of place with any other opens or flats even as a PWD

The red scheme for PW wagons appears to have been rare possibly at the time few people were taking colour photos of wagons. 

There are a number of colour photos of 'red' PW wagons in the Wagon collection on the IRRS Flickr site, including a freshly repainted ex-GN 6w Ballast Wagon complete with wheel logo and a couple of more workday photos including GSWR/GSR/CIE Dropside Ballast with wheel logo and older style of Ballast Hoppers.

The different colour scheme may have been intended to distinguish PW from revenue stock, the GSR apparently painted narrow gauge C&L Ballast Ballast wagons yellow/brown during the 1930s.

The IRRS Flickr site is a real eye opener with colour photos of pre-Amalgamation wagons in service into the late 60s including ex-Midland and West Cork Open Wagons (Irish Standard Open) and a MGWR Covered Wagon (similar to GNR) in brown with wheel logo).

I guess I will have to add some of these wagons to my collection.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:The IRRS Flickr site is a real eye opener with colour photos of pre-Amalgamation wagons in service into the late 60s including ex-Midland and West Cork Open Wagons (Irish Standard Open) and a MGWR Covered Wagon (similar to GNR) in brown with wheel logo).

 

Indeed; apart from the well known pair of GSWR Plough Vans which lasted well into Irish Rail days, there was still a MGWR bogie flat in use in the mid 1970s. I saw it at North Wall one afternoon….

[flange lubricator]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

The IRRS Flickr site is a real eye opener with colour photos of pre-Amalgamation wagons in service into the late 60s including ex-Midland and West Cork Open Wagons (Irish Standard Open) and a MGWR Covered Wagon (similar to GNR) in brown with wheel logo).

I guess I will have to add some of these wagons to my collection.

The IRRS Flickr site is an invaluable resource for the railway modeller with many  unseen pictures of rolling stock available to inspire anyone modelling the Irish Scene . 

Edited December 24, 2023 by flange lubricator