CIE Carriage Registers

[Mol_PMB]

Research for my recent (and future) posts on the AEC Railcar trailers has led me to the CIE Carriage Registers. These list all the items of coaching stock in service at the date they were issued.

Many thanks to @flange lubricator for copying every page of his version of the 1969 register for me, and giving me a hard copy at Downpatrick recently. That 1969 document had a few pages missing, probably removed by whoever at CIE owned the document when the coaches listed thereon were withdrawn - they were also missing from the version Mark had.

Then @seagoebox contacted me with an offer to help with the missing pages. It turned out that he had a complete CIE Carriage Register, but it was an earlier document from 1961. Many thanks to Michael for photographing every page of that document and sending them to me!

In both cases, the documents have been maintained as a 'live document' for some years after their original publication, withdrawn carriages being crossed out while some conversions are referenced. New carriages have been added with hand-written annotations to some existing pages, and whole new pages have been added to record new and converted vehicles. Some pages listing withdrawn vehicles have been removed, however.

As a first step in sharing this information, I have combined the scans/photos of each page of the registers into a pdf document - one for 1961 and the other for 1969. I have submitted these into the 'Resources' section where they are awaiting approval by the moderator. This will give everyone access to the original source information. 

My next stage is to put all the information into a spreadsheet format so that it is more easily searched and is consistent in format where possible. However, that will involve some element of interpretation, and perhaps some corrections to apparent errors in the original listing. I am also making a list focusing on the renumberings and conversions which occurred in this period - a surprisingly complex story in some cases.

Attached is an initial version of the spreadsheet for the 1969 register. It attempts to broadly replicate the format of the original document, with each carriage type described in a separate list. I have also collated all the pages into one 'master list' at the end.

Over the next few days I'll do the same for the 1961 listing.

I have an ambition to then combine that data with the Pender&Richards, Doyle&Hirsch and IRT&T stock listings, as well as info on the inherited GSWR and GSR carriages (and other sources where possible) to create a complete listing of the CIE steam-heated carriages from 1961 onwards. That may be a big job, but it's the sort of thing my OCD likes to do.

CIE_carriage_stock_register.xlsx

[Niles]

Excellent resource, well done.

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Niles said:

Excellent resource, well done.

Thanks! And thanks to our moderator for approving the pdf uploads in the resources section - so you can now go there and download the originals should you wish.

[Mol_PMB]

Incidentally, I have finally found out the CIE meaning of 'Hooded' as in the tin vans sometimes referred to as 'Hooded vans'.

It means 'gangwayed'. This becomes clear when looking at the summary tables in the 1961 carriage register. The tin vans were probably the first large group of 30' vans with gangways, which may be why the name was applied.

 

I continue to work on the spreadsheets, and I'm also trawling my old IRRS journals for more snippets of carriage fleet info. 

 

[BSGSV]

On 31/8/2025 at 2:20 PM, Niles said:

Excellent resource, well done.

Hear, hear! Amd many thanks to @flange lubricator and @seagoebox too.  Thank you for all your work.

[Mol_PMB]

I have now completed the Excel spreadsheet of the 1961 CIE carriage register - this is attached to this post. The pdf of the original pages is in the Resources section.

A few interesting things I found:

• The secondary stock still included plenty of 6-wheel coaches when the list was published in 1961, although most wouldn't last much longer.
• Also listed in the secondary stock are some of the former Drumm trains, now loco-hauled. They are numbered in the 250x series, which helps to explain why the former SLNCR railcar ended up being numbered 2509 (and their railbus 2508) - they follow the Drumm car numbers.
• Also, one of the Drumm cars is listed as through-wired for railcar operation. This is plausible but new to me.
• The listing includes camping coaches, but not vehicles numbered in the A series.
• Specific carriages and railcars were allocated to 'Named Trains' - I wonder what was different about these vehicles? Perhaps they were consistently in the new livery or had a higher standard of internal fittings?
• Several vehicles are marked as 'Declassified' and can be used for classes other than their original design. Some have been downgraded, but others are seconds which can be used as firsts if needed.

My next step is to combine the 1961 and 1969 registers and data from other sources into one master list. That is quite a big job. My desk is currently piled high with IRRS journals and books with carriage information! Plus of course the useful lists and references provided here on the forum. Many thanks to everyone who is helping with this.

CIE_carriage_stock_register_1961.xlsx

[Rob R]

My interpretation of the "non bogie secondary stock" listed in the 1961 register is that most of it was ex- M&GWR.

38 vehicles, just 91, 321 and 905 not "Midland".

Were Midland 6 wheelers any better than GSWR 6 wheelers or was just the numbers game with more of them to start with?

 

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Rob R said:

My interpretation of the "non bogie secondary stock" listed in the 1961 register is that most of it was ex- M&GWR.

38 vehicles, just 91, 321 and 905 not "Midland".

Were Midland 6 wheelers any better than GSWR 6 wheelers or was just the numbers game with more of them to start with?

 

Your interpretation of the data is correct.

I've not studied the older vehicles in detail, but my understanding is that the MGWR 6-wheelers were considered 'better' than the GSWR 6-wheelers. I think this was partly related to passenger comfort - for example many of the GSWR thirds had 6 cramped compartments whereas the MGWR thirds had 5 more spacious compartments. I'm not sure whether construction quality, condition/maintenance or electric/gas lighting might also have been considered? 

The GSWR had also produced a lot more bogie coaches than the MGWR and so their 6-wheelers may have been older or less well maintained than the MGWR ones. A good number of the GSWR 6-wheelers were converted to carry turf in the 1940s fuel shortages, so perhaps a smaller proportion survived into CIE days? 

It's a pity in some ways that the 4mm scale kits for Irish 6-wheel coaches are for the GSWR types, when the MGWR vehicles would be more useful to those modelling the 1950s and 1960s.

Hopefully someone with better knowledge of the older vehicles will be along soon to put me right.