CIE Carriage Registers

[Mol_PMB]

Research for my recent (and future) posts on the AEC Railcar trailers has led me to the CIE Carriage Registers. These list all the items of coaching stock in service at the date they were issued.

Many thanks to @flange lubricator for copying every page of his version of the 1969 register for me, and giving me a hard copy at Downpatrick recently. That 1969 document had a few pages missing, probably removed by whoever at CIE owned the document when the coaches listed thereon were withdrawn - they were also missing from the version Mark had.

Then @seagoebox contacted me with an offer to help with the missing pages. It turned out that he had a complete CIE Carriage Register, but it was an earlier document from 1961. Many thanks to Michael for photographing every page of that document and sending them to me!

In both cases, the documents have been maintained as a 'live document' for some years after their original publication, withdrawn carriages being crossed out while some conversions are referenced. New carriages have been added with hand-written annotations to some existing pages, and whole new pages have been added to record new and converted vehicles. Some pages listing withdrawn vehicles have been removed, however.

As a first step in sharing this information, I have combined the scans/photos of each page of the registers into a pdf document - one for 1961 and the other for 1969. I have submitted these into the 'Resources' section where they are awaiting approval by the moderator. This will give everyone access to the original source information. 

My next stage is to put all the information into a spreadsheet format so that it is more easily searched and is consistent in format where possible. However, that will involve some element of interpretation, and perhaps some corrections to apparent errors in the original listing. I am also making a list focusing on the renumberings and conversions which occurred in this period - a surprisingly complex story in some cases.

Attached is an initial version of the spreadsheet for the 1969 register. It attempts to broadly replicate the format of the original document, with each carriage type described in a separate list. I have also collated all the pages into one 'master list' at the end.

Over the next few days I'll do the same for the 1961 listing.

I have an ambition to then combine that data with the Pender&Richards, Doyle&Hirsch and IRT&T stock listings, as well as info on the inherited GSWR and GSR carriages (and other sources where possible) to create a complete listing of the CIE steam-heated carriages from 1961 onwards. That may be a big job, but it's the sort of thing my OCD likes to do.

CIE_carriage_stock_register.xlsx

[Niles]

Excellent resource, well done.

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Niles said:

Excellent resource, well done.

Thanks! And thanks to our moderator for approving the pdf uploads in the resources section - so you can now go there and download the originals should you wish.

[Mol_PMB]

Incidentally, I have finally found out the CIE meaning of 'Hooded' as in the tin vans sometimes referred to as 'Hooded vans'.

It means 'gangwayed'. This becomes clear when looking at the summary tables in the 1961 carriage register. The tin vans were probably the first large group of 30' vans with gangways, which may be why the name was applied.

 

I continue to work on the spreadsheets, and I'm also trawling my old IRRS journals for more snippets of carriage fleet info. 

 

[BSGSV]

On 31/8/2025 at 2:20 PM, Niles said:

Excellent resource, well done.

Hear, hear! Amd many thanks to @flange lubricator and @seagoebox too.  Thank you for all your work.

[Mol_PMB]

I have now completed the Excel spreadsheet of the 1961 CIE carriage register - this is attached to this post. The pdf of the original pages is in the Resources section.

A few interesting things I found:

• The secondary stock still included plenty of 6-wheel coaches when the list was published in 1961, although most wouldn't last much longer.
• Also listed in the secondary stock are some of the former Drumm trains, now loco-hauled. They are numbered in the 250x series, which helps to explain why the former SLNCR railcar ended up being numbered 2509 (and their railbus 2508) - they follow the Drumm car numbers.
• Also, one of the Drumm cars is listed as through-wired for railcar operation. This is plausible but new to me.
• The listing includes camping coaches, but not vehicles numbered in the A series.
• Specific carriages and railcars were allocated to 'Named Trains' - I wonder what was different about these vehicles? Perhaps they were consistently in the new livery or had a higher standard of internal fittings?
• Several vehicles are marked as 'Declassified' and can be used for classes other than their original design. Some have been downgraded, but others are seconds which can be used as firsts if needed.

My next step is to combine the 1961 and 1969 registers and data from other sources into one master list. That is quite a big job. My desk is currently piled high with IRRS journals and books with carriage information! Plus of course the useful lists and references provided here on the forum. Many thanks to everyone who is helping with this.

CIE_carriage_stock_register_1961.xlsx

[Rob R]

My interpretation of the "non bogie secondary stock" listed in the 1961 register is that most of it was ex- M&GWR.

38 vehicles, just 91, 321 and 905 not "Midland".

Were Midland 6 wheelers any better than GSWR 6 wheelers or was just the numbers game with more of them to start with?

 

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Rob R said:

My interpretation of the "non bogie secondary stock" listed in the 1961 register is that most of it was ex- M&GWR.

38 vehicles, just 91, 321 and 905 not "Midland".

Were Midland 6 wheelers any better than GSWR 6 wheelers or was just the numbers game with more of them to start with?

 

Your interpretation of the data is correct.

I've not studied the older vehicles in detail, but my understanding is that the MGWR 6-wheelers were considered 'better' than the GSWR 6-wheelers. I think this was partly related to passenger comfort - for example many of the GSWR thirds had 6 cramped compartments whereas the MGWR thirds had 5 more spacious compartments. I'm not sure whether construction quality, condition/maintenance or electric/gas lighting might also have been considered? 

The GSWR had also produced a lot more bogie coaches than the MGWR and so their 6-wheelers may have been older or less well maintained than the MGWR ones. A good number of the GSWR 6-wheelers were converted to carry turf in the 1940s fuel shortages, so perhaps a smaller proportion survived into CIE days? 

It's a pity in some ways that the 4mm scale kits for Irish 6-wheel coaches are for the GSWR types, when the MGWR vehicles would be more useful to those modelling the 1950s and 1960s.

Hopefully someone with better knowledge of the older vehicles will be along soon to put me right.

[BSGSV]

9 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

• Also listed in the secondary stock are some of the former Drumm trains, now loco-hauled. They are numbered in the 250x series, which helps to explain why the former SLNCR railcar ended up being numbered 2509 (and their railbus 2508) - they follow the Drumm car numbers.
• Also, one of the Drumm cars is listed as through-wired for railcar operation. This is plausible but new to me.
• Specific carriages and railcars were allocated to 'Named Trains'

2508 was an ex-DUTC single decker converted to a railbus for the Cashel branch.

One of the GSR Brake-3rds was wired for Drumm trains, and I seem to recall a Drumm being wired for railcars but not successful.

The "Named Trains" would probably have had the more recently shopped carriages. They also had carriage nameboards, which I suspect nobody would have been anxious to change around between carriages on a regular basis. I have the impression that utilisation of stock at this time seems to have been fairly low, with mainline train sets making just one round trip a day. 

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, that's great, many thanks for the extra info. I had misinterpreted the note against 2508, by association with the adjacent 2509. So easy to make assumptions without realising it, which is why I uploaded the original scans as well as my spreadsheet interpretations.

You're absolutely right, here is 2508:

[Mol_PMB]

Just a quick update. I am not far off completing my first draft of the combined CIE carriage register spreadsheet which I will upload here in the next few days.

The scope I have set myself is to include all steam-heated, vacuum-braked carriages in service with CIE from 1961 until the final withdrawal of the Cravens in 2006.

It's been a lot of work to collate and cross-reference data from about 50 different sources including two editions of the CIE carriage register and many entries in journals and books. 

Some entries are simple, some are complicated where carriages were rebuilt, renumbered and reclassified several times during their life.

 

Already I have ideas of how to improve it, such as adding hyperlinks to connect the entries where vehicles have been rebuilt/renumbered, and links or references to published photos of each carriage. That will take even longer, so I'm planning to publish the simple version in the meantime.

An area I am presently weak on is the carriages inherited from the GNR, and to a lesser extent the MGWR and the DSER. The listing would definitely benefit from the knowledge of a GNR carriage expert.

I hope this will prove a useful reference.

Cheers,

Paul

[flange lubricator]

That is a mammoth task you have taken on and a brilliant reference for everyone to use . 
 

well done Paul 

Edited 4 hours ago by flange lubricator

[airfixfan]

59 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Just a quick update. I am not far off completing my first draft of the combined CIE carriage register spreadsheet which I will upload here in the next few days.

The scope I have set myself is to include all steam-heated, vacuum-braked carriages in service with CIE from 1961 until the final withdrawal of the Cravens in 2006.

It's been a lot of work to collate and cross-reference data from about 50 different sources including two editions of the CIE carriage register and many entries in journals and books. 

Some entries are simple, some are complicated where carriages were rebuilt, renumbered and reclassified several times during their life.

 

Already I have ideas of how to improve it, such as adding hyperlinks to connect the entries where vehicles have been rebuilt/renumbered, and links or references to published photos of each carriage. That will take even longer, so I'm planning to publish the simple version in the meantime.

An area I am presently weak on is the carriages inherited from the GNR, and to a lesser extent the MGWR and the DSER. The listing would definitely benefit from the knowledge of a GNR carriage expert.

I hope this will prove a useful reference.

Cheers,

Paul

Ask JHB?

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Just a quick update. I am not far off completing my first draft of the combined CIE carriage register spreadsheet which I will upload here in the next few days.

The scope I have set myself is to include all steam-heated, vacuum-braked carriages in service with CIE from 1961 until the final withdrawal of the Cravens in 2006.

It's been a lot of work to collate and cross-reference data from about 50 different sources including two editions of the CIE carriage register and many entries in journals and books. 

Some entries are simple, some are complicated where carriages were rebuilt, renumbered and reclassified several times during their life.

 

Already I have ideas of how to improve it, such as adding hyperlinks to connect the entries where vehicles have been rebuilt/renumbered, and links or references to published photos of each carriage. That will take even longer, so I'm planning to publish the simple version in the meantime.

An area I am presently weak on is the carriages inherited from the GNR, and to a lesser extent the MGWR and the DSER. The listing would definitely benefit from the knowledge of a GNR carriage expert.

I hope this will prove a useful reference.

Cheers,

Paul

@Paul 34Fhas been very helpful to me on GN coaches 

[jhb171achill]

46 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Ask JHB?

I am afraid I do not know any source for this beyond details as shown in Ernie Shepherd's MGWR history and the IRRS-published GSR carriage lists. These give details of withdrawal dates for carriages, but one thing it doesn't give is where a coach was wiothdrawn from PUBLIC service, say, in 1959, but used as a PW department tool van or staff coach for some years afterwards.

Perhaps Seagoebox of this parish might be able to elaborate on the latter?

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

....Ernie Shepherd's MGWR history and the IRRS-published GSR carriage lists. These give details of withdrawal dates for carriages, but one thing it doesn't give is where a coach was withdrawn from PUBLIC service, say, in 1959, but used as a PW department tool van or staff coach for some years afterwards....

Were such records actually kept in the first place? Or was the change of use just done ad-hoc?

[jhb171achill]

25 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Were such records actually kept in the first place? Or was the change of use just done ad-hoc?

A good question. I'm unaware of th existence, either now or in the past, of any single definitive list which would give such details, but coaches taken out of public use but retained in traffic for internal or departmental use, were re-numbered in a completely different series, with an "A" suffix, so there should have been something. I would not be confident that of such a thing has survived, its date accuracy would be 100%, because you could have a coach set aside for withdrawal, and actually derelict before official withdrawal, and maybe earmarked for scrap but at the last minute resurrected "sure, that one will do!" as a PW van or somethinbg, with just the seats ripped out.

Numbers were unrecognisable. So, suppose you've two ex-MGWR carriages,numbered 36 and 37 by the Midland, then 36M and 37M by the GSR & CIE, these could well become 239A and 442A as depertmental vehicles.

All in all, not an easy one to pin down. We can just go by whatever individual examples we know of. 

[jhb171achill]

To answer a few of the questions above.... but first, the list suggests six-wheeler 62M was scrapped in 1964. It actually still exists - that's the one at Whitehead.

Yes, ex-Midland six-wheelers were far more numerous at the end of the six-wheel era (the last passenger-carrying ones of this type were withdrawn from public service in 1963).

They were considered to be better built and more comfortable - both. Both Inchicore and Broadstone used the very best high quality timber, so build quality was not an issue. Many ex-GNR coaches, though, especially made after 1935, were of decidedly inferior timber. That's one of the reasons many older GNR types survived well into UTA times.

Yet, if you look at six-wheel passenger brakes, GSWR types there were more numerous - doubtless because passenger comfort wasn't an issue.

The Hattons Genesis range were chosen as they closely resemble several "house styles" the GSWR used. In GSR or CIE livery they fit the bill perfectly - and though the MGWR types outnumbered them vastly, there WERE some ex-GSWR six-wheelers in traffic up to the very early 1960s, i.e. pretty much the end of the "6 wheel era".

So, at the end, a typical train of six-wheelers, or mostly of six-wheelers, as might have been used on Youghal summer excursions, but pretty much nowhere else, as the last of the type tended to be sent as secondary stock to Cork - would have had mostly MGWR passenger vehicles and an ex-GSWR passenger brake.

Two important takeaway points for modellers.

1. There is not one British design of coach with models made of it, either in RTR or kit form, which resembles closely in design ANYTHING that ran here. The Genesis yokes are a generic design, and happen to reasonably resemble some GSWR types (which is why they were chosen) buit for accuracy, there's really nothing British that even closely fits any Irish line, with the exception of a few LMS types that fit as LMSNCC / UTA equivalents. So, for the era we're talking about, the Genesis stuff was well worth having. An LNER, Great Western or Southern Railway coach in an Irish livery just doesn't cut it. 3D print may well solve this difficulty. In particular, and relevant to the above, MGWR design was so unique that not a solitary thing in Brexitland comes any closer to anything Irish than an ICR looks like a Festiniog Fairlie.

2. On the subject of six-wheelers, we'll have noted that only one type was offered by Hattons in black'n'tan. This raises one point of historical interest, and one of operational interest. 

(a) Only about six full vans survived the complete withdrawal of all remaining operational six-wheelers in 1963. They were largely used to carry mail bags on the Galway line for a few years more. Several were withdrawn in 1964/5, so it's exceptionally unlikely they were repainted black'n'tan, but at least three were. I have seen pictures of these being hauled by 121s, and in a train of varying types of laminates as late as 1967, but not afterwards. A single one was only officially withdrawn in 1970, but a photo of it a year earlier has it looking very woebegone - they were certainbly go ne before the forst Dutch and BR vans entered service. 

(b) Following on from the above, it is thus incorrect to run a model of a black and tan six-wheel full brake with any green six-wheelers, as the few that got the new livery only did so AFTER the last of the passenger-carrying ones were withdrawn!