Dundalk, Newry & Greenore Railway

[Colin R]

Hi all.

Yet another hare to start running, I have been reading DSM Barries book on the DN&GR, now while the locos are still available from the GEM successors and Worsley work do most of the ex LNWR 6 wheeled coaches, I am at a lost to find anything about the Bogie Composite coaches they used on the Belfast Boat Express.

I understand they where 54ft but that does not make any sense as far as the LNWR is concerned since they where only building 50ft coaches at the time so to build something which was longer does not make any sense, so I am wondering if anyone may have that rare photo of these coaches while the DN&GR was still operating.

As far as I know there is not a kit for them so it looks like a butcher job on some Ratio coaches.

I have had a look on the net but so far have not come across any photos of them.

 

Regards

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

[snapper]

Irish Broad gauge carriages a pictorial introduction, Desmond Coakham, page 87

Quote

The three bogie coaches, Nos 24-26 of 1899/1900, built for the through boat trains from Belfast owed more in their layout to GNR influence in that they had lavatories for all three classes and a guards compartment at one end. Their dimensions  were 50ft by 8Ft 6in though they were gas lit, doubtless much to GNR displeasure

It also mentions their later careers having already been mentioned (possibly in a different section of the book) but I can't seem to find it.

[jhb171achill]

8ft 6 in width?

Built to British, rather than Irish, loading gauge? Unlike their six-wheelers, or indeed - as far as I'm aware - a solitary railway vehicle built new for Irish use prior to the Mk 2s for the Enterprise in 1970!

 

(I said "to my knowledge").....!

[Colin R]

1 hour ago, snapper said:

Irish Broad gauge carriages a pictorial introduction, Desmond Coakham, page 87

It also mentions their later careers having already been mentioned (possibly in a different section of the book) but I can't seem to find it.

Should have given this book a look before I asked, but there is a photo on Page 62 of the type of coach I am looking for, but I don't think it is a tri composite, I can only assume that they became another GNR(I) coach group K27?

 

Colin

[Patrick Davey]

On 10/1/2018 at 8:26 PM, Colin R said:

the locos are still available from the GEM successors

Have you more details of this Colin?

[Irishswissernie]

RM Arnold's Golden Years of the GN Vol 2 has some information on the Belfast Boat Express. It would appear that the train ceased running after the accidental sinking of the LNWR Passenger steamer 'Connemara' when it collided with the Clanrye Steamship Co 'Retriever' at the mouth of Carlingford Lough on 3 November 1916. Arnold seems to imply that the GNR provided the motive power from Greenore, probably a PP or U or similar small 4-4-0 as nothing larger was permitted. Express due in 1913 at Edward Street, Newry 6.42am  a GNR Breakfast car was included in the consist and arrival at GVS 7.45am.

I have the GNRI Working Timetabl;es for 1917 together with additional working notices etc and there is accordingly no mention of any boat express's or through coaches off the DN&GR to Belfast or Derry.

Ernie

[Colin R]

5 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

Have you more details of this Colin?

Hi Patrick

You need to contact Lytchettmanor models on the following link

http://lytchettmanor.co.uk.websitebuilder.prositehosting.co.uk/lytchett-manor/news-archive

He does not have the display on the web site at the moment, but if you contact him he will let you know how much the kit will be.

Colin

 

 

[Andy Cundick]

Its worth bearing in mind that the Greenore engines  were in reality saddle tank versions of the  LNWR "DX"goods with 5'2" wheels rather than the Special tank 4'6" wheels.London Road do a Special tank kit which far better than the old GEM kit and can also supply the proper size splashers from their DX kit,an almost finished one has been spotted at Courtmacsherry recently.Andy.

[WRENNEIRE]

Anything like this?

 

[Andy Cundick]

Exactly like that,Andy.

[Colin R]

Well that looks like the next kit then, I have to also admit that the DX looks the part as well.

 

[leslie10646]

Yet another hare to start running, I have been reading DSM Barries book on the DN&GR, now while the locos are still available from the GEM successors and Worsley work do most of the ex LNWR 6 wheeled coaches, I am at a lost to find anything about the Bogie Composite coaches they used on the Belfast Boat Express.

I understand they where 54ft but that does not make any sense as far as the LNWR is concerned since they where only building 50ft coaches at the time so to build something which was longer does not make any sense, so I am wondering if anyone may have that rare photo of these coaches while the DN&GR was still operating.

If you have the original of DSM Barrie's book, there's a photo of a painting of the Belfast Boat Express. I'll scan it when I'm back home where the book is.

Well, these aren't the coaches in the painting in DSM Barrie's book, but they're close - in the painting they are being hauled by a Class PP - so my No.42 fits the bill. The coaches were built by Jol, owner of London Road Models (see David's reply). They are LNWR "English" coaches, but all became Irish coaches when the GNR(I) bought them from BR in 1948 or so. I had the opportunity to buy them at Scaleforum recently and thought it would be nice to recreate the painting on my layout! Actually, I've always loved the LNWR coach livery, so that was the original attraction. 

This is similar to the painting, but an attempt at a side on view (not easy among the struts in my loft!).

Although each of these is identifiable as a GN coach Class, I'm not going to repaint them in Mahogany!!!!

Edited October 11, 2018 by leslie10646

[WRENNEIRE]

Micro Rail did some LNWR coaches Leslie but they were 6 wheelers

 

 

[GNRi1959]

Leslie, the coaches are of no interest to me but I have some nice pictures of GN PP Class No.42 at Omagh on an IRRS Special. Is this a scratch build or kit built model of yours? Looks fantastic.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by GNRi1959

[leslie10646]

Ah, Tony, I was on that train!!!! My first rail tour in 1961, I believe! This looks like us waiting to come off the Markets Branch at Omagh.

The model is built from the Rowlands kit (forgotten the guys first name or his trading name) - now available from Des of SSM.

It IS a nice model and runs very well with 4 bogies or so - I took it off a train of Richard Ellis-Hobbs' GN coaches to set up this "photo shoot".

David, thanks for the heads-up on the LNWR six wheelers. There is a rake being made by Richard McLachlan for a DNGR layout based, happily enough, in the Dundalk area. I'm owed one of those six wheel full brakes, because, one was at Portadown roundhouse, presumably in some use as a tool van, or whatever.

Edited October 12, 2018 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

For a DNGR layout, those six wheelers are absolutely essential, as they made up the consist of virtually every single train. The boat train was short lived, and the more usual use of one of their few bogies was to strengthen a train of 2 or 3 six wheelers.

With locos readily adaptable, and beautiful coastal scenery, the DNGR would make an amazing model. GNR goods stock from the Dept. of Provincial Wagons, plus certain classes of GNR tank loco (the SSM one, maybe) would complete the picture.

[Andy Cundick]

Worsley do the 6wheelers ,off the top of my head i believe that the panelling is slightly different to the LNW ones,Andy.

[Broithe]

This has just turned up on a Facebook group that I got roped into.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/109619289726001/permalink/277947209559874/

 

"Greenore Ireland.

View of the yard, with the quays and goods shed on the left and the station area on the right. The rear of a LNWR bracket signal can be seen in the centre whilst a DN&G saddle tank is to be seen shunting in the centre background.

Photograph Courtesy of Mr J Ryan LNWRS reference SOC1403"

[Patrick Davey]

Wow...............

[Patrick Davey]

Not too many layouts based on the DNGR - I remember seeing one on display in Carlingford once, possibly entitled 'Ravensdale Viaduct'.  Nice subject, the DNGR.

[RichL]

A late visitor to this topic, but hopefully better late than never. I was curious about the DN&G bogie stock and found this thread.

In the Coakham book, the other reference to the DN&G bogie coaches is on page 70. These coaches went to the NCC in 1933, not the GNR. According to Coakham they were immediately converted to brake vans and numbered 401-403. One was destroyed in WW2. The others survived into UTA service.

The painting of the boat train may be wrong if the carriages depicted are based on ex-LNWR stock in the possession of the GNR.

[Galteemore]

Is this the painting in question? If it is I know that the artist - Raymond Piper - was given strict instructions by the commissioner of the artwork  as to the exact composition of the train and toured Ulster in the early 50s sketching the individual vehicles and then composing the painting. I am fortunate enough to have one of the sketches (of the loco, drawn at Newry shed) on my office wall.

The painting was commissioned by Sir John Harcourt, Lord Mayor of Belfast, for presentation to British Railways. Sir John had a soft spot for the old Belfast-London via Greenore route, having used it pre WW1. Sir John died c 1967 but his son is happily still with us, indeed he was the first chairman of the RPSI in 1964! The painting hung at Euston but is now in the NRM collection, York.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

Must dig out my UTA NCC Coach diagram book out tomorrow to check those DNGR coaches

 

[RichL]

4 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Is this the painting in question? If it is I know that the artist - Raymond Piper - was given strict instructions by the commissioner of the artwork  as to the exact composition of the train and toured Ulster in the early 50s sketching the individual vehicles and then composing the painting. I am fortunate enough to have one of the sketches (of the loco, drawn at Newry shed) on my office wall.

The painting was commissioned by Sir John Harcourt, Lord Mayor of Belfast, for presentation to British Railways. Sir John had a soft spot for the old Belfast-London via Greenore route, having used it pre WW1. Sir John died c 1967 but his son is happily still with us, indeed he was the first chairman of the RPSI in 1964! The painting hung at Euston but is now in the NRM collection, York.

My worry is that if the coaches were converted to brake vans as soon as the NCC got them Piper would not have had much to go on.

3 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Must dig out my UTA NCC Coach diagram book out tomorrow to check those DNGR coaches

 

That would be great - we might find out more about them!

[RichL]

A friend has kindly let me borrow a few books on the LNWR, some of which are informative re the DN&G stock.

Most informative though is HMRS Journal Vol 14 no 7 p215 which gives details of the bogie coaches.

50ft 0in x 8ft 6in Lavatory Brake Composites

Guard/Lavatory/1/2/Lavatory/3/3/Lavatory/3/3

Gas Lighting

B129 a/c Drawing No 4380 Built 1899

Nos 23, 24 and 25.

In 1933 these were sold to the NCC and converted into brake vans. Two were still extant in 1957.

Having compared the number of compartments with various drawings in several publications I struggle to see how you could fit all those compartments and lavatories into a carriage of that length. Also, the number of 3rd class compartments seems large when Barrie states that there were only 24 3rd class seats. A typical 3rd class compartment with lavatory access seems to be 10 seats. Overall, it creates as many puzzles as answers.

The HMRS article gives a full description of all the DN&G stock as well as a few drawings, but not one of the bogie coaches.

In 'The LNWR Recalled' is a short article about Greenore in 1908. GNR loco No 74 Rostrevor was shedded there to operate the Belfast Boat Train,

Edited July 18, 2020 by RichL
Typo

[airfixfan]

According to the UTA NCC Carriage diagram book these were class V12. NCC 401-403 were ex DNGR 24-26 and were 50ft long and 9ft 9 wide after rebuilding in 1933. Built at Wolverton 1899/1900 and 403 destroyed by Belfast Blitz 1941 and 401/2 later became 605/6 and seem to have gone by early 1960s.

[RichL]

Thanks, that's useful.

There is actually a photo of one in Coakham's Irish Broad Gauge Carriages book that I missed before - page 73 second image from the top. Difficult to imagine what it looked like before!

[Dhu Varren]

I think you will find that the 9ft 9in width refers to the width over the Guards Lookout Duckets. The coach body width remained at 8ft 6in.

[RichL]

It would make sense for the NCC to retain the original body framing as LNWR stock was renowned for being very solidly built.

[airfixfan]

33 minutes ago, Dhu Varren said:

I think you will find that the 9ft 9in width refers to the width over the Guards Lookout Duckets. The coach body width remained at 8ft 6in.

Correct

Edited July 18, 2020 by airfixfan

[airfixfan]

See this NNC diagram of rebuild

[RichL]

Thanks, that confirms a few details. As an observation, the panelling is probably new but the position of the doors might give a clue about the position of some of the original doors. The ducket end in particular looks like it might be based on the original. The small intermediate windows look too small to be original though, based on the photo in Coakham's book p73 - different to your diagram.

As it's not exactly going to be an action-packed weekend I may play around with LNWR carriage diagrams in Photoshop to see if I can work out what the original may have looked like.

Edited July 18, 2020 by RichL
typo

[RichL]

Didn't take long....

Here's the best I can get of the boat train painting by Piper - red spots are doors and white spots lavatories

Here's a quick attempt to do this using David Jenkinson's drawings of 50ft stock as a base, with left to right 3 x 3rds, a 2nd and a 1st, with a guard's compartment on the end. LNWR designs were very standardised, so we can be moderately confident about the overall look of the drawing. This is the only version that fits well with a 50ft body length. You can roughly imagine some doors and windows lining up with the NCC diagram below, assuming the diagram is not exactly to scale.

Only snag is that it doesn't fit the description in the HMRS journal completely. According to that, there should be another 3rd class compartment on the left. There was no way I could fit one in, even with a couple of half-compartments, so I suspect their description is slightly wrong.

Maybe the painting was based on official records, as the general arrangement painted seems to make sense. There is no guard's ducket in the painting though, so not sure if that should be there or not. A minor, but obvious error is that Piper has put brake end windows in the wrong end of the coach in his painting.

Anyway, no guarantees about complete accuracy with any information, or my interpretation. Good news is that the Ratio (now Parkside) LNWR underframe is perfect for the job, including the 8ft bogies.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by RichL
correction

[Colin R]

Hi do you mean Parkside Models? as that is part of Peco.

I understand that the coach sides are once again available as seperate items, so you can buy just one full kit and purchase extra sides to kit bash.

regards

Colin Rainsbury

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Colin R

[Dhu Varren]

53 minutes ago, RichL said:

 

Here's a quick attempt to do this using David Jenkinson's drawings of 50ft stock as a base, with left to right 3 x 3rds, a 2nd and a 1st, with a guard's compartment on the end. 

 

If it is of any help, in the IRRS journal for Autumn 1964, in 'Coaching Stock of the NCC', these coaches are described as seating 5 1st class , 8 2nd class and 24 3rd class passengers. There was a lavatory to each compartment, but no corridor. Apart from the 1st class, I just can't figure out what the seating arrangements could have been