Turf vans

[David Holman]

 A small one for the cognoscenti among you. Am interested in building one or more of the 6w coaches that were converted to carry turf, mainly by removing the roof and boarding up doors and windows. The Waterford Limerick and Western book shows many of them were their coaches originally.

 The questions therefore are, how long were they used for and what livery would they have been? Hopefully will make for an interesting project, including how to simulate the load!

[Broithe]

I wonder if you could slide the boards up as the level went down, then fling them out through the windows, if the glass was gone?

There might be the possibility of the doors still opening, though it would be an 'interesting' job to operate the catch with that lot behind it...

[Broithe]

 

[Broithe]

 

[Old Blarney]

Edited August 24, 2020 by Old Blarney
Copied from "Goods Traffic on CIE"

[Mayner]

The Turf Trains appear to have run to Dublin and possibly other cities when imported coal was unavailable for domestic and industrial use as a result of WW2  during "The Emergency" possibly late 1940 until coal supplies returned to near normal after the ending of hostilities.

Turf was transported from bogs in the West and Midlands to Liffey Junction with the Phoenix Park converted to a vast fuel depot. The unemployed were enlisted to cut turf one of my Uncle's a dapper city gentleman successfully avoided the draft possibly by finding a job or medical reasons.

A Ballina- Belmullet  Line would have been a good candidate for turf traffic from bogs in the Bangor Erris and Bellacorrick area to Dublin during the Emergency or possibly between Bangor Erris-Bellacorick if the power station came on line in the late 1940s.

Bogs in the Bangor Erris area were used to supply turf to the Bellacorrick Power Station from the mid-1960s on-wards  https://www.mayo-ireland.ie/en/towns-villages/bangor/bangor-activities-bellacorrick-station.html with development work commencing on the bogs in the early 1950s.

The late Jack O'Neill wrote about his first experience of fast main line running as a passed fireman on a double headed turf train behind 656 and 660 from Mullingar to Liffey Junction in a "Decade of Stream". The Turf Trains were given the best available coal and ran at high speeds given priority over all trains except passenger and mails. Jack O'Neill described the trip as one of the most enjoyable of his career marred only by a fire breaking out on the train as they passed Clonsilla with 4 wagons ablaze when the reached Liffey Junction where the firebrigade dealt with the problem.

Turf trains were unloaded on two long sidings served by a wide concrete roadway at Liffey Junction on the site of the current Broombridge LUAS light rail terminus and Depot. The sidings were disconnected and removed following the closure of Liffey Junction as a blockpost and re-alignment of the main running lines during the 1990s

Edited August 24, 2020 by Mayner

[Buz]

Hi David Holman

Can't help with the coaches that's certainly different and an odd bod that's caught my attention will be interested to know how you do the coach and what you use.

But the load might be able to be created with a block of foam cut to fit a steel nail in the middle to facilitate removal with a magnet and covered with sprue rubble painted to taste.

Sprue rubble basically roughly chopped up plastic kit sprue a trick often used by war-gamer's to get blast rubble for their bombed out buildings it works and can look really good dependent on how finished.

regards John

[Old Blarney]

I note the text accompanying this article " Goods Traffic on CIE"  states these coaches were in GSR livery. This would have been the case prior to January, 1st, 1945. I doubt CIÉ would have passed a paint brush over these coaches  when they were using them!  I do remember the huge piles of Turf stockpiled in the Phoenix Park and, somewhere at the very back of my mind the road vehicles carrying Turf to Dublin. Many of these Lorries were former US Army vehicles. The Railway Coaches, I cannot be certain, but, faded, very fades maroon  is my recollection. The boarded-up windows and doors! I do not remember whether or not these were covered with material from dismantled railway stock,  be they Goods or former passenger carrying vehicles. From the picture above there is planked material inside the window spacing, so, perhaps Grey wight be the colour there? All memories from when I was a very young child visiting my Grandparents' home, Liffey Bank House, Island Bridge. From here, I could see the trains crossing the Liffey Bridge to travel under the Phoenix Park. Dates for reference are from around September, 1945, when I was three and into the fifties when Liffey Bank was demolished.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Old Blarney

[David Holman]

Wow, fabulous stuff - thanks everyone! Looks like the project is on. As I have given Belmullet a distillery, the idea is that a coach or two of turf from Bangor Ferris bogs will be used to take fuel there. So, either a single coach, with a removable load, or one full, one empty to likewise create the fantasy.

 Am thinking that a plasticard and plastic strip body on an Alphagraphix chassis should do the job.

[Broithe]

Another Father Browne picture.

[Broithe]

And this one - http://edwindavison.com/collections/shopexd.asp?id=18183 - is the one I originally mentioned as seeing in the book from Easons all those years ago...

[Noel]

6 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

Such a shame, John Wayne may have travelled in one of those

 

[Old Blarney]

Noel,

"Such a shame, John Wayne may have travelled in one of those" - The Quiet Man is a 1952 American romantic comedy-drama film directed by John Ford.

Are you having a Senior moment or perhaps come off at a Water Jump?  My daughter had an horrific accident years ago at a Water Jump and even now, cannot remember having competed on that day.

Wishing you well.

David.

 

 

[Old Blarney]

Strange Coaches -  "Silver Princess"

By accident - I found this image in The Father Brown Collection. Have I found a photograph of The Budd Car in use with CIÉ?

 

This unusual coach (by UK standards) was built in 1947 by the Budd Company of America, and took to the rails in Britian, and for a time Ireland, to demonstrate constructional features new to British practice. Named "Silver Princess", it was 63ft long. 9ft 2ins wide and weighed 29 tons, was of all-steel construction and distinguished by corrugated side and roof panels. The outer skin was of stainless steel and the coach was originally unpainted. As built it was composite with first class in side compartments and third class in an open saloon with twin reclining and rotating seats.

 

It ran experimentally on both the LMS and LNER and, with 5ft 3ins bogies, on the CIE in Ireland. Later it was allocated to the London Midland Region of BR and upgraded to full first. Still later, the first class compartments were replaced by a lounge bar. The coach was given standard BR carmine & cream livery, presumably when alloced to the LMR and the only insignia carried while in this livery was M7585M and figure 1's on all doors. There were plain flat sections on the corrugated lower sides intended to accommodate insignia. The doors were not corrugated.

 

Bogies were standard LMS 9ft welded type while corridor connections were of the standard British type (not pullman) but with pointed tops. There were seven roof vents of a unique flat type. The body may have been self-supporting although there does appear to be some trussing under the centre of the coach ala BR Mk. I style, however, this may have been purely a support for the dynamo, battery boxes and ancillary fittings.

Info and observations from 'Railway Carriage Album' by G M Kitchenside (IA 1966)

Edited August 24, 2020 by Old Blarney

[leslie10646]

I'm sure Trains, Coal and Turf by Peter Rigney must have something on this, but not being where my library is, I can't confirm.

Lord Blarney, if CIE was short of coaches in the early 1950s, they might have converted them back to original use after The Emergency, so Noel could be right after all?

Boy, this Bushmiils is great stuff .......   and not a taste of turf about it

[Old Blarney]

McA, 

Good to know you are alive. Any comment on the "Silver Princess"?

[leslie10646]

28 minutes ago, Old Blarney said:

McA, 

Good to know you are alive. Any comment on the "Silver Princess"?

MiLord

I was aware of this beast, but cannot add to your piece.

It doesn't appear in the index to the IRRS Journal, so I can't point people to a piece in that hallowed organ of knowledge.

Too early for the Railfans' News.

I wonder is that where The Blessed Oliver got his daft idea of unpainted coaches from?

Noel would have had fun weathering a model of it?

[David Holman]

Needless to say, Turf, Coal and Trains is available on Amazon. Several copies, second hand from a tenner and new from twenty quid. Hopefully have mine by the weekend. Thanks again everyone.

[K801]

6 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

Strange Coaches -  "Silver Princess"

By accident - I found this image in The Father Brown Collection. Have I found a photograph of The Budd Car in use with CIÉ?

 

This unusual coach (by UK standards) was built in 1947 by the Budd Company of America, and took to the rails in Britian, and for a time Ireland, to demonstrate constructional features new to British practice. Named "Silver Princess", it was 63ft long. 9ft 2ins wide and weighed 29 tons, was of all-steel construction and distinguished by corrugated side and roof panels. The outer skin was of stainless steel and the coach was originally unpainted. As built it was composite with first class in side compartments and third class in an open saloon with twin reclining and rotating seats.

 

It ran experimentally on both the LMS and LNER and, with 5ft 3ins bogies, on the CIE in Ireland. Later it was allocated to the London Midland Region of BR and upgraded to full first. Still later, the first class compartments were replaced by a lounge bar. The coach was given standard BR carmine & cream livery, presumably when alloced to the LMR and the only insignia carried while in this livery was M7585M and figure 1's on all doors. There were plain flat sections on the corrugated lower sides intended to accommodate insignia. The doors were not corrugated.

 

Bogies were standard LMS 9ft welded type while corridor connections were of the standard British type (not pullman) but with pointed tops. There were seven roof vents of a unique flat type. The body may have been self-supporting although there does appear to be some trussing under the centre of the coach ala BR Mk. I style, however, this may have been purely a support for the dynamo, battery boxes and ancillary fittings.

Info and observations from 'Railway Carriage Album' by G M Kitchenside (IA 1966)

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, K801 said:

I was just looking for that brochure, which I have somewhere! Obviously, I've already posted it here before! 

And yes, I suspect that's exactly where Bullied got his crazy idea for churning out diesel locos and coaches (AND, of course, the corrugated wagons!) in plain bare metal.........

Edited August 25, 2020 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

16 hours ago, David Holman said:

 A small one for the cognoscenti among you. Am interested in building one or more of the 6w coaches that were converted to carry turf, mainly by removing the roof and boarding up doors and windows. The Waterford Limerick and Western book shows many of them were their coaches originally.

 The questions therefore are, how long were they used for and what livery would they have been? Hopefully will make for an interesting project, including how to simulate the load!

These "wagons" were converted from withdrawn six-wheel coaches (no bogies). Doors were locked shut, and door handles removed for the most part, though the odd one might still have one! Some had random planking filling up doorways, some had wooden boards inside windows, some outside - the pics show that these were scrap vehicles resurrected IF the brakes could be made to work.

They were used from the mid-1940s to the late '40s.

Most were of GSWR designs - certainly all that I can make out in the above picture are of that origin, though I know I've seen Midland stock in this state somewhere else. Really, no two were alike.

In some cases, the footboards have been roughly hacked off, leaving broken or twisted brackets, in others the brackets are gone. Some have mostly coach panelling, some have most planks instead. Many have part of a side made up by several old doors strung alongside each other - look at the picture above and see how many "3"s there are along the side of some - the number "3" indicating third class, on that type of carriage was carried ONLY on doors.

Livery - very very badly worn GSR "maroon"; by this stage, a faded, peeling or streaked salmony-pink colour, very heavily weathered with brake dust. Thus a brown shade to the weathering. The planked bits are likely to be either unpainted, or a rough coat of wagon grey. None were actually PAINTED in any livery - they were basically taken off scrap lines, on which some of them had sat for some time.

9 hours ago, Broithe said:

Another Father Browne picture.

This one's a GSWR brake or brake third. Double doors - but replaced with two passenger doors - hence the "3" on each, and the erstwhile guard's lookout ducket removed and planked over. Still has its door handles!  Footstep brackets hacked off.

[David Holman]

Away last week, so only just got to look up Shepherd's book on the WLW. Appendix D on coaches lists at least five 6 wheelers converted to turf wagons, all five compartment thirds that were broken up in 1955.

 Clearly not enough to cover the needs of the Emergency, but looks like I can justify at least one on Belmullet in its 1950s phase. The information on this thread also highlights just how creative the railways had to be in those difficult times. 

Thanks again!

[Irishswissernie]

They must have been a b****r to unload especially as you got down to the dregs heaving the turds er turves up and over the sides but then men were men in those days not like today when the only exercise your muscles get is in the gym or changing gear.

[Buz]

18 hours ago, David Holman said:

Wow, fabulous stuff - thanks everyone! Looks like the project is on. As I have given Belmullet a distillery, the idea is that a coach or two of turf from Bangor Ferris bogs will be used to take fuel there. So, either a single coach, with a removable load, or one full, one empty to likewise create the fantasy.

 Am thinking that a plasticard and plastic strip body on an Alphagraphix chassis should do the job.

I would respectfully suggest that given the fighting water production and perhaps possibly medical alcohol production?? the distillery could do both on different production lines.

That perhaps three turf wagons err coaches Oh whatever, would be a better number given peat's lower calorific value to other fuels.

My personal opinion is odd numbers seem to look better, and a distillery is I would have thought likely to want a constant flow of fuel as well as a few port barrels, bottles and ingredients in-wards and fighting water and medical alcohol out wards.

What was done with the production rubbish and ash could that be an outward freight for producing something else?

regards John

 

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

I wonder if you could slide the boards up as the level went down, then fling them out through the windows, if the glass was gone?

There might be the possibility of the doors still opening, though it would be an 'interesting' job to operate the catch with that lot behind it...

I would imagine they would have been unloaded firstly by climbing up on top, when fully loaded, then firing them out through the doors when they've dug down to that level to enable them to open. 

I think the windows would need to be boarded up, they would be shattered in a short time anyhow.

Edited August 25, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Broithe]

10 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I think the windows would need to be boarded up, they would be shattered in a short time anyhow.

I wonder if the glass was already gone, I don't see a hint of a reflection in any of the pictures.

[David Holman]

Interestingly that odd numbers of coaches seem to look better. Certainly three always seems better than two or four to me.

 Will have to have a think about how many vans I could make. The initial idea was for a single turf van, together with three other four wheel wagons or vans, plus a Sligo brake, as essentially that is all the room I have in the fiddle yard. However, three might be better. More thought required!

[Galteemore]

And the Sligo van would be quite prototypical. Turf trains ran from Dromahair - the loads were brought in by Leitrim Co Council lorries. The destination was Dundalk via GNR but no reason a few loads could’nt have gone west via Collooney South and the WLWR....

[Broithe]

8 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Interestingly that odd numbers of coaches seem to look better. Certainly three always seems better than two or four to me.

 Will have to have a think about how many vans I could make. The initial idea was for a single turf van, together with three other four wheel wagons or vans, plus a Sligo brake, as essentially that is all the room I have in the fiddle yard. However, three might be better. More thought required!

An 'interesting' feature of cartoon characters is that they usually have a thumb and three fingers, as four fingers just looks like 'too many'.

A friend of mine has lost her ring finger to cancer, but it's hardly noticeable to the viewer.

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

I wonder if the glass was already gone, I don't see a hint of a reflection in any of the pictures.

Maybe removed and stored for use in coaches in service.

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, David Holman said:

Interestingly that odd numbers of coaches seem to look better. Certainly three always seems better than two or four to me.

 Will have to have a think about how many vans I could make. The initial idea was for a single turf van, together with three other four wheel wagons or vans, plus a Sligo brake, as essentially that is all the room I have in the fiddle yard. However, three might be better. More thought required!

They ran in what nowadays would be called a “block train”, but artistic licence might allow a four-coach set? The brake van was a standard 6-wheel passenger brake.

The “3”s on the doors relate to the GSR’s livery which includes the passenger class 1 or 3 (2nd long gone by then) on doors.

7 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Maybe removed and stored for use in coaches in service.

Probably non existent in many cases as the coaches were scrappers. I think they had already been withdrawn.

8 hours ago, Galteemore said:

And the Sligo van would be quite prototypical. Turf trains ran from Dromahair - the loads were brought in by Leitrim Co Council.......

This was in normal open wagons - but - layout “artistic licence”.

10 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

They must have been a b****r to unload especially as you got down to the dregs heaving the turds er turves up and over the sides but then men were men in those days......

Very much so. The sides were all boarded up, doors and all. It’s possible an odd foot still worked, but they were loaded and unloaded by a squad of men flinging the turf pieces over the sides! Labour was cheap then.....

On 8/24/2020 at 11:12 AM, Old Blarney said:

I note the text accompanying this article " Goods Traffic on CIE"  states these coaches were in GSR livery. This would have been the case prior to January, 1st, 1945.
 

correct.
 

I doubt CIÉ would have passed a paint brush over these coaches  when they were using them!  

 

Correct - they didn’t. Scrap coaches botched together for a very temporary use only.

 

 

 

The Railway Coaches, I cannot be certain, but, faded maroon  is my recollection.
 

Yes, old GSR livery as above.

 

 The boarded-up windows and doors! I do not remember whether or not these were covered with material from dismantled railway stock,  be they Goods or former passenger carrying vehicles. From the picture above there is planked material inside the window spacing, so, perhaps Grey wight be the colour there? 

Yes, any old grey paint - or just about anything. Some with bare planks too probably.

Re. the few W & L vehicles, that’s true, and there were almost certainly a few DSER examples, but GSWR stock formed the bulk.

To run on a layout, in reality you’d need a set of them to be realistic - even 3 or 4, plus a van.

Turf in small quantities just went in normal open wagons.

Edited August 25, 2020 by jhb171achill

[David Holman]

Great stuff all round. Thanks JB.

[Irishswissernie]

A copy of Trains, Coal & Turf landed on the door mat today and the method of un-loading is shown in Plate 1. The coach shown  has a set of double doors no doubt part of a Guards compartment still 'openable' 

This is part of the photo. The photo credit is "courtesy of Gerry Beesley"

[Irishswissernie]

Working my way through the Casserley negs I acquired at the auction last Saturday and came across this one of a conversion to a Turf Van on the narrow gauge

[airfixfan]

Thanks the CDR had a small number of former coaches converted into turf Van's. This was former passenger brake 26 converted in 1939. At a time of fuel shortages more coaches had been converted and a special turf siding installed at Strabane. Most of the turf came from the Glenties branch.

[David Holman]

Remarkable what keeps turning up.