Feast or Famine - Passenger Stock for A's and 121's

[jhb171achill]

Indeed - yes, the livery mix is indeed good news - if, say, you’ve two types of carriage, but one of each green and black’n’tan, there’s 4 carriages in a train that aren’t the same!

[Buz]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - yes, the livery mix is indeed good news - if, say, you’ve two types of carriage, but one of each green and black’n’tan, there’s 4 carriages in a train that aren’t the same!

Obviously the railway is only  part way through the repainting process works for me

The rider being that the two liveries followed one after the other

Four coaches I might need a longer platform

Well I mixed blood and custard and crimson coaches also but in separate trains teak and war time brown coaches to get the trains even a BR W full brake on a Pullman train as a luggage van on previous English layouts

So I see no reason I should not do the same but different on an Irish layout, but I assume NIR and CIE should never be seen in the same train

regards John

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Buz said:

Obviously the railway is only  part way through the repainting process works for me

The rider being that the two liveries followed one after the other

Four coaches I might need a longer platform

Well I mixed blood and custard and crimson coaches also but in separate trains teak and war time brown coaches to get the trains even a BR W full brake on a Pullman train as a luggage van on previous English layouts

So I see no reason I should not do the same but different on an Irish layout, but I assume NIR and CIE should never be seen in the same train

regards John

Exactly - any time any railway changes livery, unless they only have a solitary vehicle there will be a period when the old runs alongside the new. The period within whicvh the older dark green mixed with silver and the lighter green was 1955-63, and the period where the later green mixed with black'n'tan was 1962-67 or 68.

B121, B141 and B181 class locos were variously in black'n'tan or "supertrain" all through 1972-approx.1980.

For a grey 121, obviously initially when hew there is nothing BUT green, but towards the time when the last one was repainted in black'n'tan, green coaches were still about, but very few and far between.

Your British "blood & custard" coaches would have run alongside a handful in pre-BR liveries, plus later, full BR maroon plus regional liveries (Western region brown & cream and Southern green).

[patrick]

The South Waterford Line is primarily intended as operating model railway which captures the atmosphere of CIE in 1974. While I am delighted to be able to acquire the superb models made available from MM and IRM I will gleefully use any model which passes the two foot rule if it will help me achieve my goal without scratch building. Example, a passenger train  composed of a MM Craven, an Irish Freight Models laminate brake and a Park Royal all flanked by a Silver Fox tin van and heating van. No two vehicles  are alike and in my opinion a good representation of a typical passenger train on a secondary line from the early to mid seventies. While the SF and IFM models are nowhere up to the standard of the MM Craven in the big pictre of things the whole train is a far better representation than the solid train of Cravens I ran before the other models were aquired.

Edited September 8, 2020 by patrick

[DJ Dangerous]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - yes, the livery mix is indeed good news - if, say, you’ve two types of carriage, but one of each green and black’n’tan, there’s 4 carriages in a train that aren’t the same!

So that summarises quite concisely what modellers could realistically hope for, while at the same time a manufacturer could aim to launch two different coach models in two different liveries without having too much cash tied up for too long?

[patrick]

A laminate a tin van and a Park Royal would go a long way considering the longevity of the prototypes and different paint schemes they sported. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by patrick

[mphoey]

4 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So that summarises quite concisely what modellers could realistically hope for, while at the same time a manufacturer could aim to launch two different coach models in two different liveries without having too much cash tied up for too long?

plus with the way previous coaches have sold if they release the right ones they will sell but i still think the first one who does a van is a winner

[DJ Dangerous]

I think that the downside to the van is that there'd only be one per rake, whereas with the other coaches, you could have four, six, eight or whatever per rake, yet the manufacturer would only need two different moulds to shift those eight coaches.

So with a van, one sale per rake per mould, and with the coaches, four sales per rake per mould.

Not knocking the vans in any way, i understand the importance of them, just looking at it from a practical point of view.

A van might end up costing €150 whereas the coaches might only cost €60. All guess-work, yes, but probably close enough to the mark.

[Robert Shrives]

7 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I think that the downside to the van is that there'd only be one per rake, whereas with the other coaches, you could have four, six, eight or whatever per rake, yet the manufacturer would only need two different moulds to shift those eight coaches.

So with a van, one sale per rake per mould, and with the coaches, four sales per rake per mould.

Not knocking the vans in any way, i understand the importance of them, just looking at it from a practical point of view.

A van might end up costing €150 whereas the coaches might only cost €60. All guess-work, yes, but probably close enough to the mark.

Summarises the IRM issue with the GSV weed spray coach- essential to the model scene  but un economic for the business model. Unless the Angel investor with no interest in returns happy to give over E100K we can wish all we like for rtr but a kit or a kit commission is where you will need to visit- even a 3D print will not be that much different on the rails for a price.. 

Robert      

[murphaph]

I believe the mkI GSV would be a lot more viable than the spray van, which is a one off on the network whereas every Cravens rake, no matter how short, would need a GSV to be prototypical.

More viable doesn't necessarily mean viable of course but I'd buy half a dozen!

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Wanted: Extremely Patient Angel Investor with a few hundred grand for tin vans and GSV's...

[BosKonay]

20 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Wanted: Extremely Patient Angel Investor with a few hundred grand for tin vans and GSV's...

Perhaps it’s something a crowdfunding type model may work for but we’ve our hands exceedingly full for the next year or two

[DJ Dangerous]

Just now, BosKonay said:

Perhaps it’s something a crowdfunding type model may work for but we’ve our hands exceedingly full for the next year or two

Yeah, that B&I ferry must be a huge project.

[leslie10646]

Patrick said: Example, a passenger train  composed of a MM Craven, an Irish Freight Models laminate brake and a Park Royal all flanked by a Silver Fox tin van and heating van. No two vehicles  are alike -

Hit the nail on the head, Patrick. Nice train, by the way.

Even in late steam/early diesel days secondary trains were often the inevitable tin van, a modern bogie coach and an ancient one! To model that, you either scratch / kit build, or accept "the two foot rule coaches "available. Except you are modelling main line in sixties onwards, uniformity was NOT the order of the day in virtually any part of Ireland.

 

[Mayner]

Even long distance Intercity services from Heuston to Tralee & Westport made up of conventional stock could include quite a mix of coaching stock until replaced by MK3 & MK2D rolling stock in the mid 1980s.

A typical Heuston-Tralee or Westport service would included a mixture of Craven, Park Royal and Laminate stock, a Buffet Car and BR van regularly loading up to 8-10  coaches regular formations on the Connolly Sligo & Rosslare services tended to shorter 5-6 coaches including Buffet & Van. Formations were strengthened off with older stock borrowed from Dublin Suburban services at weekends and for peak Summer and Christmas/New Year traffic.

CIE had a habit of reducing train frequency, running longer trains and sometimes combining trains for different destinations during periodic economy drives.  Midland Section trains sometimes loaded to 12-14 coaches on a number of occasions when Dublin-Galway-Westport-Sligo services were combined into a single train with Dublin-Galway trains detaching through coaches for Sligo at Mullingar and Westport at Athlone combined trains last operated for a short period during the 1970s oil crisis. Knock specials regularly loaded to 12-14 coaches of conventional stock  into the mid 1980s.

[DiveController]

2 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Perhaps it’s something a crowdfunding type model may work for but we’ve our hands exceedingly full for the next year or two

I think you have your answer regarding weed sprays and BR MK1 GSV, lads

[murphaph]

That's a reasonable position IMO. There's other stuff to make that is more viable than a GSV right now and that helps to continue to grow the market in the meantime. As the market grows, the more niche vehicles become more viable.

Though I would reiterate that the weedspray van will always be significantly less viable than any GSV. MM has already released EGVs and restaurant/buffet cars so such 'one per rake' vehicles are quite possibly viable already, notwithstanding the fact that IRM have other priorities and a finite amount of time to manage projects. It's a bit of an anomaly that the Cravens didn't have a GSV but that's presumably down to the lack of a Cravens GSV in the prototype. Trains using a mkI GSV can be much shorter than anything using a mkIId EGV and still be prototypical so a mkI GSV should be more viable than a mkIId EGV.

[mphoey]

18 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Yeah, that B&I ferry must be a huge project.

theres a lovely 1/1250 scale irish ferries model available at the moment plus this guy does card kits of all the irish ferrie b&i stena boats 

http://modelferries.com/

[DiveController]

15 hours ago, murphaph said:

That's a reasonable position IMO. There's other stuff to make that is more viable than a GSV right now and that helps to continue to grow the market in the meantime. As the market grows, the more niche vehicles become more viable.

Though I would reiterate that the weedspray van will always be significantly less viable than any GSV. MM has already released EGVs and restaurant/buffet cars so such 'one per rake' vehicles are quite possibly viable already, notwithstanding the fact that IRM have other priorities and a finite amount of time to manage projects. It's a bit of an anomaly that the Cravens didn't have a GSV but that's presumably down to the lack of a Cravens GSV in the prototype. Trains using a mkI GSV can be much shorter than anything using a mkIId EGV and still be prototypical so a mkI GSV should be more viable than a mkIId EGV.

Having the new project manager should help lighten the load a little

[Buz]

Hi all

I had a rather mad thought last night.

Four and six wheeled coaches fly off the shelf's mostly into the hands of children for their train set, or to the much older inner child.

Given that 4 and 6 wheeled coaches seem to have lasted for much longer in Ireland than other places.

Would it be worth producing a definitely Irish twin pack of brake  coach and coach in  four or six wheel coach's that has reasonable  but less breakable detail.

That would appeal to both the adult modeller and stand up reasonably well to a child a tough ask I know.

Given it would also have to go round 14 5/8" curves to suit the child market as well as be just good enough that the adults will want them as well.

I see it as being a twin pack thing as no one ever seems to do the brake coach for these small coaches.

Could it be done cheap enough to be a viable very long term thing that pays for it's self and then some and maybe a bit more just for good measure, while still producing a reasonable likeness to real 4 & or 6 wheel Irish coaches??.

OK thanks for the tea I will get my coat on the way out

regards John

[DoctorPan]

I mean there's the new Hatton's Gensis project which would give decent foundation for to be resprayed into Irish colours. 

 

 

[DiveController]

I say stick with the catering vehicles

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303931

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Do any 1950's Laminate coaches exist in good condition today, for survey purposes?

[mphoey]

7 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Do any 1950's Laminate coaches exist in good condition today, for survey purposes?

1463 is still around with the RPSI

[DJ Dangerous]

4 minutes ago, mphoey said:

1463 is still around with the RPSI

So there is hope, for one day!

[mphoey]

if anyone ever wants details on what stock the RPSI has  heres a very useful link

https://steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection

[Niles]

There's also Laminate 1460 at Kiltimagh museum, and another (1468 I think) in Sligo Folk Park.

Then converted brake 3rd 1918 at Downpatrick.

[MD220]

Downpatrick also has Laminate buffet 2419 and Generator/brake/open 3223.

[DiveController]

11 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Do any 1950's Laminate coaches exist in good condition today, for survey purposes?

The RPSI heritage set alone has a couple of Park Royals (c. 1955), a 1449 series CIE built open second (pre-)laminate (1958), and buffet car 2421 (1956) all sitting on 61'6 chassis. 1916 is not one of the original 1950s built brakes but was converted in the '70s. Originally it was a a 2162 series suburban composites (1956), the external and internal structure of which is well known and wouldn't take a lot to reverse engineer the conversion to its original composite condition. 

Some earlier Bredin designed GSR-built coaches also exist in preservation from the Cork-Dublin expresses or the Cork-Rosslare boat trains but these are on 57', 60' or 66' chassis some on 6 wheel bogies which will not see the light of day, although they may be some hope for the former group due to the longevity as primary and secondary stock.

[jhb171achill]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:37 AM, Buz said:

If not it becomes which liveries ran together as liveries changed so if green ran with orange and black single stripe then that can be done to get a train.

As long as the whole dogs breakfast looks a believable possibility I am happy.

Thanks for confirming a steam generator car is an absolute must I have that at least in motion.

Which means the core for RTR coaches could come down to literally two a composite and steam generator,  one branch line complete train OK its a train set train. But I have seen pictures of a real similar sized trains, and if it can be done cost effectively even better.

regards John

 

Yes, indeed - SO many rural trains in the 60s were 2 or 3 coaches and a van - sometimes just one.

Trawling two photo collections last week (for a reason!), I found a Limerick - Ballina train with a 121 hauling nothing more than a single laminate and a tin van! Usually, though, that service was 2 or 3 + van.

I was on that service with 2 + van, Loughrea with a solitary coach - the unique one on that line which had no need for a van as they plugged it into the mains at night in Loughrea, having fitted it with storage heaters, and 3 laminates with tin van Rosslare - Limerick.

Just before the railcars arrived in Limerick, I went down to poke about in Ireland’s last city terminus with proper trains. I watched as the Nenagh train was backed into the platform, then the Rosslare one, awaiting their couple of passengers each....both sets were a BR van and just one Craven.

Edited September 14, 2020 by jhb171achill

[DJ Dangerous]

12 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

both sets were a BR van and just one Craven.

A "BR van" means a GSV built from a former BR Mk1 BCK or BSK?

[jhb171achill]

Just now, DJ Dangerous said:

A "BR van" means a GSV built from a former BR Mk1 BCK or BSK?

Yes - and there were several variations of these, but all BR Mk 1 outline, hence narrower and noticeably lower than Irish-built stock attached to them!

[DiveController]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes - and there were several variations of these, but all BR Mk 1 outline, hence narrower and noticeably lower than Irish-built stock attached to them!

And therein lies the problem with trying to convert narrow 9"0 or 9'6" english stock in pseudo irish stock. While there are brass etched sides etc that can be used, they're applied to stock that has the wrong end profile.

The Irish stock was unique in that respect, taller with a stocky square and wider end profile.  Some were very noticeably wider at 10'2 or more, wider at the level of the cantrail and operating on broad gauge track, wherein lies another modeling problem ...

Edited September 15, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

Indeed - too true!

[Mayner]

There is always the option of following the late David Jenkinson's example in "Carriage Modelling made easy" and scratchbuilding the models that are not produced as rtr models or kits.

David Holman's MGWR brake and convertible wagons are excellent examples, using simple techniques.