Running your IRM A class with what stock

[Billycan]

Indeed JB, have to hand it to MM and IRM for the great range of liveries they cover.  So many modellers' preferences catered for.

Creating a 121 chart is not a major issue.  There are 3 columns in the chart and 2 are already in place, so provided I'm not breaching anyone's copyright in the loco images, it's just a matter of assigning the different liveries to the rolling stock - deleting a livery if it doesn't apply.  For example, I guess 'IE Livery' would not have pulled Single-stripe Cravens.  That kind of thing.  And then I guess some of the liveries might never have been associated with certain duties.  I'm totally reliant on folks on here to share that kind of information and I'm happy to share the graphics.  Getting there.

[Blaine]

For this I'm going to go with Black and Tan onwards. I've also added MK2A/Mk3 stock as 121's are 'Suitable for hauling Air Braked Trains'

Never seen a pair of 121's on the Taras either, mainly as a pair were too long for the traverser at Alexandra Road. Waiting for a photo if it did happen. Real 'badly stuck' stuff

 

Livery Key - there was no 'Supertrain with IR Logo' for the 121's unless I can be photographically proved wrong.....

Black and Tan 1963-1975

Supertrain 1972-1988

IR 1987-1997

IE 1995-2008

 

Single-stripe Cravens... Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR

Twin-stripe cravens... Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR, IE

ST Mk2D's... Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR, IE

IR/IE MK2A's...IR,IE - rare 

IR Mk2D's... Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

IE MK2D's Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

IR Mk3 / PushPull IR,IE

IE MK3 / PushPull IR,IE

CIE Ballast wagons... Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

IR Ballast Wagons... Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

Gypsums...Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

Blue Tara's... N/A - Prove me wrong with a photo

Red Tara's... N/A Prove me wrong with a photo

Orange Bubbles...Black and Tan, Supertrain

Grey Bubbles...Black and Tan, Supertrain

Ivory Bubbles with CIE... Supertrain, IR,IE

Irish Cement Ivory Bubbles...Supertrain, IR,IE

Bogie Cements...Supertrain, IR,IE

Bogie Shale - Air Braked...Supertrain, IR

42' Container Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

Fertilizer Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

Guinness Keg Liners...Black and Tan, Supertrain, IR,IE

Ammonia NET  Supertrain, IR

Ammonia IFI  IR,IE

Edited May 19, 2021 by Blaine

[jhb171achill]

On 21/4/2021 at 10:51 PM, Blaine said:

Supertrain with IR logos and IR. Ammonia started in 1978

At an absolute stretch, a 141 in black'n'tan MIGHT (hypothetically, anyway) have been seen with these things, but i don't think an "A". I took a film of the trial run of them passing Kildare one summer day, yes, I believe 1978. During the same week on a runabout ticket, I think I still saw maybe only one or two locos not yet "supertrained", but they were 141s. But I never saw a black'n'tan loco after that. Either that, or I'm mixing it up with summer '77; at which time no ammonias.

Edited May 6, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Billycan]

The second Compatibility Chart, this time for the 121-Class loco from Murphy Models.  The period spanned by these charts includes 5 modelled liveries.  Murphy Model's 121-Class locos covers 4 of them and IRM's A-Class loco also covers 4 of them but the companies don't model the same 4 liveries.  This is now indicated in the charts.  Livery descriptions are not consistent across manufacturers, so on these charts 'Black' and 'Black and Tan' are the same livery and 'IR Orange' and 'IR' are the same livery.  The grey and orange bubbles have been shuffled so that the grey ones come first in the listing.  That now applies on both charts.

In the background of this little project there has been great cooperation with details and permissions coming from a number of modeller's and contributors of this parish.  If I name them I'll surely forget someone.  So, you know who you are and the ease with which you cooperated made my job that much simpler, so many thanks for that.

As with the last chart, any comments, suggestions or correction edits that enhance the charts are welcome and I'll happily make them

 

A-Class Liveries 12 May 2021.pdf.121-Class Liveries 12 May 2021.pdf

[Dempsey]

That is excellent work. Very informative 

[Noel]

Excellent Just a suggestion but bulleids, h-vans, laminates, tin vans and park royals might make it onto those lists especially bullied open beet van and h vans the most numerous rolling stock on Irish rails since the 1940s. Double beets also worthy of inclusion.

Excellent Just a suggestion but bulleids, h-vans, laminates, tin vans and park royals might make it onto those lists especially bullied open beet van and h vans the most numerous rolling stock on Irish rails since the 1940s. Double beets also worthy of inclusion. Ps and cattle wagons

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Excellent Just a suggestion but bulleids, h-vans, laminates, tin vans and park royals might make it onto those lists especially bullied open beet van and h vans the most numerous rolling stock on Irish rails since the 1940s. Double beets also worthy of inclusion.

Excellent Just a suggestion but bulleids, h-vans, laminates, tin vans and park royals might make it onto those lists especially bullied open beet van and h vans the most numerous rolling stock on Irish rails since the 1940s. Double beets also worthy of inclusion. Ps and cattle wagons

I'm sure that IRM have them all on their roadmap for the distant future.

[Mayner]

On 7/5/2021 at 3:09 AM, jhb171achill said:

At an absolute stretch, a 141 in black'n'tan MIGHT (hypothetically, anyway) have been seen with these things, but i don't think an "A". I took a film of the trial run of them passing Kildare one summer day, yes, I believe 1978. During the same week on a runabout ticket, I think I still saw maybe only one or two locos not yet "supertrained", but they were 141s. 

At the time only one or two Bo Bos (not sure 141 or 181) were fitted to work the air braked LHB bogie cement wagons. 

The A Class were unable to haul the bogie cements as they were vacuum braked only, there was a rumour that some 001 Class were to be fitted using equipment salvaged from the B101 Sulzers an number of Sulzers were moved from the Sound Barrier into the Works for assessment. I sheltered from a sudden downpour in the engine room of B106 during a Works visit in the late 70s.

Going back to Noels point on wagons the A and later 001 classed basically hauled everything that ran on the CIE/IE rail system apart from air braked stock such as the LHB Bulk Cement Wagons, Shale Wagons and MK3 coaching stock.

Traditional freight (fitted and unfitted) rolling stock would have included anything that was capable of moving from their introduction in 1955 to the ending of loose coupled goods working in the mid 1980s (Sugar Beet, Dundalk-Adelaide freights, Civil Engineers), while most pre-amalgamation freight stock was out of service by 1960 some GSWR and GSR wagons (particularly vans and opens) continued in regular use into the early 1970s, some receiving the wheel logo and red oxide. GNR stock was added to the mix in 1958 although most opens and vans had gone by 1970s, the distinctive  ex-GNR 16T bagged and bulk cement wagons built in the 1950s continued in service until replaced by the  Pallet Cement Wagons in 76-77 and the final batch of Bubbles in the early 70s. Although CIE introduced the wheel logo in the early 1960s and began to paint wagons red oxide in the early 70s, wagons were only repainted when absolutely necessary (following overhaul, corrosion treatment or damage repair) and retained grey paint and sometimes 1950s snail logo and lettering until scrapped during the late 70s early 80s

Edited May 14, 2021 by Mayner

[Georgeconna]

Wow Fab Chart there Billy.

[jhb171achill]

From the P Dillon / C Fry collection, I’ve fished out a few guess which I’ll post over the coming days to illustrate the “A” (and, for good measure, the B101s) in the 1958-64 period. I do jig have to hand exact dates for each individual one.

These are cropped to show maximum detail on the loco and what “goes with them”.

I hope this is of interest.

Firstly; A7.

 

The copyright for ALL of these that I will post in the coming days belongs to Hassard Stacpoole or Patricia Dillon.

[jhb171achill]

In response to a question, the stock in the train above is typical of the period; this train containing green laminates, a Park Royal, and (out of sight) at least one Bredin, more laminates of several types and what looked like a dirty silver tin van at the rear. I focussed in on the loco, as I will in the coming days.

Today's picture, sticking with the "A" class, this at Mallow. The light green paint on the line along the side, and the "snail", have worn off - many photos show this line weathering badly, even when the main body colour was still smart enough. Mail van attached, still in "silver".

Modeller's details: Water column on left, still very dirty / weathered green. Note the roof of the TPO. It looks black. It is important to note that like domes on blue GNR engines, or red Donegal engines, although these often LOOKED black, this was 100% dirt, and in all three cases were NEVER actually painted black. Similarly, silver coaching stock and locos never had black bogies - always also silver - but covered in gunge, gunk, oil and brake dust.

Silver (unpainted) stock, despite being new, would on occasion still be steam hauled. Good luck with a clean roof on that one!

This pic is the Kerry mail, so it will have about three passenger-carrying coaches behind it, plus one or two - or being a mail train maybe more - tin vans.

More tomorrow.

Edited May 15, 2021 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Not the greatest original pic to work with, but the pic shows then-newish laminates with a green “A” + stripe.

Unusually, coaches 2, 3 & (out of view) 4 are the same type, so this is possibly a special train intended to impress someone.....

Recent comments elsewhere about accurate weathering may be interested in where the oil stains were on these Crossley beasts.

Additional comments - now that I see this pic in a larger screen, the carriages carry the name boards used on the principal expresses, which I think dates it to the early 60s. As this train passes, Inchicore Works is probably performing its Unboxing Dance with brand new 121s, ready-fitted with kadees, 21mm gauge axles and sound chips.

Edited May 16, 2021 by jhb171achill

[connollystn]

@jhb171achill - Very useful photographs. The one thing they highlight is the lack of RTR models to go with the early liveried CIE locomotives. The variety of coaching stock in trains from that era would surely make for very interesting layouts for  modellers.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, EXACTLY.

I've been banging on about this for years (as those in the model railway trade who know me will testify)!

Naturally, many of these items may not ever be commercially viable, so self-build for much of it will remain the only show in town - at least for a very long time.

I am hoping at some stage to produce as complete a list as I can of appropriate "off-the-shelf" and kits which would be suitable for a 1955-65 period, interest in which is obviously growing, and not before time, as this period had the single greatest variety of stuff on wheels in all of Irish railway history; brand new stock AND locos operating alongside some items 70 and 80 years old - and everything in between. I would add some "off the shelf" British stuff which with a repaint would just about pass a "2-foot rule" for those on lesser budgets, or less concerned about absolute technical accuracy. For example, some of the "bought" SECR coaches (one anyway) would have a passing resemblance to a certain class of MGWR bogie, at least one example of which survived the grey & green era to get a clean coat of black'n'tan. I think it survived to about 1965.

With "bought" six-wheelers now appearing, and at a reasonable price, that's one ticked off. JM Design and Silverfox do kits of tin vans, though a RTR one is needed. A wooden bogie - ideally GSWR origin (of 1910-20 design) is another must.

Many another thing too, of course, VERY many - goods stock of all types included - would be needed.

[murrayec]

4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Not the greatest original pic to work with, ......

 

Sharpened and adjusted

[jhb171achill]

Out on the main line, A25.  The photographer seems to have either followed this train, or been on it, yet in a position to take a shot like this en route.

in typical style, the first three carriages are of three different types.....

Edited May 17, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

Interesting one A25 is fitted with deflectors apparently to reduce wind turbulence around the snatchers while exchanging ETS staff at speed.

The coaches appear to be relatively new Laminates a large number of which (over 60) were introduced in 1958-59 and would have allowed reasonably uniform rakes to be made up for the Cork Expresses and other prestigious trains until they became due for heavy repairs.

The leading coach is a 1909-1913 main line Brake Second a type that was usually marshalled at the South end of Main Line trains, presumably there is an older CIE "Bredin" style Buffet Car and a 1st Class Coach or Composite marshalled towards the rear of the train coupled to a 4w Heating and Luggage Van.

[murrayec]

[jhb171achill]

Obviously when quite new, 1955.

But look to the left; an 1890s GSWR 6-wheeled first class saloon, possibly now downgraded, with a much newer bogie behind it. Such was the contrast readily and regularly available.

[jhb171achill]

I've identified that six-wheeler I posted earlier.

Obviously of GSWR parentage, it is no. 601, one of a pair  of 3rd class saloons built in 1896, and withdrawn in 1957. The other was withdrawn in early 1955, just before the "A" class entered traffic, apparently.

It had a toilet, which makes me think it was probably originally a first, but my GSWR notes do not confirm this. Internally it had two 18-seat compartments, each with a bench seat along the end,  and side benches (note the window layout).They were seperated by a vestibule, on one side of which was the toilet, a wash hand basin on the other.

There were all manner of oddities like this well into the 1960s, though only of bogie variety after March 1963, when the last passenger-carrying six-wheelers in traffic were withdrawn in Cork, boy.

If anyone buys the Hattons six-wheelers, note that while most British six-wheelers seem to have only one footstep, two were fitted to almost every single Irish six-wheeler, on all company's lines.

Edited May 19, 2021 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

A36 rattles and coughs along the main line somewhere with a mail train. 

Reasonably new CIE TPO still in silver (yes, INCLUDING that filthy roof AND ends!), followed by a GSR bogie mail van, as far as I can make out, and Bredins and laminates. I think I saw another black and white pic of this train - if it’s the same one, a wooden bogie and several tin vans took up the rear.

Edited May 19, 2021 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

A “silver” laminate, a short-lived idea in the late 60s. And THIS is a cleanish one. The entire chassis, ends and roof are caked in a mix of general grime, brake dust and drizzle, and the only reason the sides aren’t is carriage washes.

The odd one survived like this until about 1965, going directly to black’n’tan. Most were repainted green after a short time.

 

[murrayec]

[BSGSV]

19 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Nice one gents. I think that's the first photo I've seen of those 10 suburban compos before they got converted to brake standards.

[jhb171achill]

You’ll also note the usual eclectic mix: on the left, an equally newish Park Royal, to the right an elderly GSWR coach, by then some fifty years old.

Edited May 20, 2021 by jhb171achill

[DiveController]

10 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Nice one gents. I think that's the first photo I've seen of those 10 suburban compos before they got converted to brake standards.

Is that a 2162-71 series? Very much needed to follow the early As in silver and green liveries.  

 

@jhb171achillIncidentally what did a 1960s carriage wash consist of? Bucket of water and a yard brush from a platform?

Edited May 20, 2021 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

21 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Is that a 2162-71 series? Very much needed to follow the early As in silver and green liveries.  

 

@jhb171achillIncidentally what did a 1960s carriage wash consist of? Bucket of water and a yard brush from a platform?

Yes, agreed regarding RTR passenger coach! Offered in "silver-muck", green and black'n'tan.....

What did they wash them with? It would be tempting to say buckets of mud! yes, yard brushes and water, mostly...  I'm not sure when the first carriage washing plants were installed, but I don't think they were to be seen 1955-60........

[jhb171achill]

Moving from “A”s, let’s hope for a 101 in the future!

 

[Rosslare Ranger]

On 16/5/2021 at 2:40 PM, jhb171achill said:

Yes, EXACTLY.

I've been banging on about this for years (as those in the model railway trade who know me will testify)!

Naturally, many of these items may not ever be commercially viable, so self-build for much of it will remain the only show in town - at least for a very long time.

I am hoping at some stage to produce as complete a list as I can of appropriate "off-the-shelf" and kits which would be suitable for a 1955-65 period, interest in which is obviously growing, and not before time, as this period had the single greatest variety of stuff on wheels in all of Irish railway history; brand new stock AND locos operating alongside some items 70 and 80 years old - and everything in between. I would add some "off the shelf" British stuff which with a repaint would just about pass a "2-foot rule" for those on lesser budgets, or less concerned about absolute technical accuracy. For example, some of the "bought" SECR coaches (one anyway) would have a passing resemblance to a certain class of MGWR bogie, at least one example of which survived the grey & green era to get a clean coat of black'n'tan. I think it survived to about 1965.

With "bought" six-wheelers now appearing, and at a reasonable price, that's one ticked off. JM Design and Silverfox do kits of tin vans, though a RTR one is needed. A wooden bogie - ideally GSWR origin (of 1910-20 design) is another must.

Many another thing too, of course, VERY many - goods stock of all types included - would be needed.

Would anyone have a RAL or BS code for this green, or know where it is possible to get reasonably priced.

[BSGSV]

12 hours ago, DiveController said:

Is that a 2162-71 series?

That's them. 40 first, 36 seconds.

[Noel]

IMHO we also need long rakes of 2 axle Beet wagons (Bulleid Open) and 2 axle H-Vans to run behind the A classes.  

[DiveController]

4 minutes ago, Noel said:

IMHO we also need long rakes of 2 axle Beet wagons (Bulleid Open) and 2 axle H-Vans to run behind the A classes.  

Agree plus pallet vans and a whole host of other stuff, but there is a serious lack of appropriate coaching stock from 1950s that lasted right thru into the 1980s

[DiveController]

Duplicate deleted 

Edited May 21, 2021 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

More realistic rendition of post-1955 green.

In background, a "silver" "E" on the left, and on the right a wooden GSWR bogie and what I think is the end of a Bredin.

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by jhb171achill

[connollystn]

@jhb171achill- Great photographs of the 101s - haven't seen images of these locomotive with this quality and clarity. Anyway, don't be jumping the gun, there's nothing RTR to operate with the early As and so, before we start talking about the 101s, we need a few Park Royals and the like before then. Having seen the IRM As in green I'm certainly considering looking at the early CIE diesels - the advantage being the rolling stock is shorter and you can fit more on a layout.