Murphy Models new 201 and Mk3 coaches

[Wexford70]

7 minutes ago, railfan222 said:

Hi all,

 

Does anyone know when the new Murphy Models 201s and Mark 3s are going to be coming out?

Regards Kian.

Was in Mark's Models on Saturday and they said October or after.

But that these will be after a new run of Craven's and MK1s.

[Sean]

1 hour ago, Wexford70 said:

But that these will be after a new run of Craven's and MK1s.

yesssssss. 

 

the only things missing off my wish list at the moment are RTR 141 and 071, was too young to appreciate or obtain the earlier runs.

[murphaph]

Mk1's? As in GSV's?

[BosKonay]

14 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Mk1's? As in GSV's?

Presume he means mk2’s. 

[hexagon789]

11 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

Presume he means mk2’s. 

Either that or they are taking on Bachmann and Hornby's offerings

[jhb171achill]

New Cravens?? Wow - excellent.

[murphaph]

I'll take a rake of Cravens with new numbers, especially welcome would be the original livery ones.

9 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Presume he means mk2’s. 

Oh yeah probably. I'm more interested in these than the Cravens to be honest. They're IR too which suits me better.

Timing wise it sounds like we might be forking out a lot in the last quarter on coaches from both sides of the border

[murphaph]

Quick question about the Cravens. Were they ever hauled in a scheduled train by steam traction or only later by preserved steam on specials? They came in right at the end of steam so I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing any photos of such but it's not my area of expertise (nothing is lol).

[leslie10646]

16 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Quick question about the Cravens. Were they ever hauled in a scheduled train by steam traction or only later by preserved steam on specials? They came in right at the end of steam so I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing any photos of such but it's not my area of expertise (nothing is lol).

I've had a look through Lance King's photographs in the IRRS collection and I cannot see any photos of steam hauling Cravens coaches pre 1965 (end of steam on the Dubliin -Belfast semi-fasts). "Laminates" yes, but not Cravens.

[murphaph]

Thanks Leslie. Appreciate the effort

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Quick question about the Cravens. Were they ever hauled in a scheduled train by steam traction or only later by preserved steam on specials? They came in right at the end of steam so I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing any photos of such but it's not my area of expertise (nothing is lol).

No, never.

The first Cravens went into traffic several months after the last steam locos had stopped operating.

Similarly, they never ran with a train containing six-wheelers, as these disappeared from traffic the same time as steam, March 1963; the very first Cravens were late 1963, others 1964 and up to 1967.

For steam, the following carriages are suitable, in order of age: 

1.  Six-wheelers (by late 50s, MGWR & GSWR types - WLWR & DSER ones seem to have almost totally gone). Four six-wheeled full brakes remained, all of GSWR origin, and gained the black'n'tan livery; the last two surviving until the late 1960s.

2.  Wooden bogies - by late 50s almost all of GSWR origin - a handful of MGWR and one or two DSER and WLWR.

3.  Bredins - 1930s GSR

4.  Early 1950s CIE - essentially Bredin design

5.  Park Royals

6.  Ex-GNR coaches of various types appeared on CIE from very late 1958.

7.  Laminates

8.  "Tin Vans" - four wheeled only - luggage vans and heating vans (the 6-wheeled heating vans appeared in 1965). Bogie generator vans are late 1960s (Dutch) and early 1970s (BR) onwards.

For the DIESEL era:

The "A", "B101", "C" and "B121" classes all ran with the above stock in green when new, but obviously "graduated" to more modern stock later. The 141s started life alongside the Cravens, but also would have hauled all of the above bar the passenger-carrying six-wheelers. Likewise the 181s. By the time the 071s appeared, Mk 2s had appeared, and of the above, only Cravens, Park Royals and laminates remained. The very last Bredins were withdrawn shortly before the 071s went into traffic.

The quirky one, of course; the "G" class. One hauled a MGWR six-wheeled passenger brake on the Foynes line for a few weeks, and several members of the class hauled "laminate"-based 1904 and 1910 (separately) on the Loughrea branch between 1963 and 1975!

[murphaph]

Invaluable info as always JB. Thanks a lot!

[Bob229]

Looking forward to the Cravens,  Mk3 and 201 Locos by the end of the year, better start saving 

[Wexford70]

21 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Presume he means mk2’s. 

Yes apologies MK 2s

 

[Westcorkrailway]

9 minutes ago, Wexford70 said:

Yes apologies MK 2s

 

I thought it would by mk3’s and 201s first and then cravens. I didn’t realise this plan had switched altogether 

[murphaph]

I don't think the mk3's were ever due first. There's no tooling for them yet.

 

[BosKonay]

4 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I don't think the mk3's were ever due first. There's no tooling for them yet.

 

Not wishing to speak for Mr.  Murphy but with timelines as they are in China at the moment, we shared fully finished tooling samples of the Mark 2b coaches last August and we should have them in stock by this August. 

[Rush and Lusk]

Thanks for that nice update BosKonay !

[railfan222]

2 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Not wishing to speak for Mr.  Murphy but with timelines as they are in China at the moment, we shared fully finished tooling samples of the Mark 2b coaches last August and we should have them in stock by this August. 

Are IRM supporting Murphy Models with the production of the 201s and Mark 3s? Any any cad designs for the new 201s in at any stage? If so It would be nice to see them.

 

I am really really a fan of the 201s. I like their noise they make whenever the driver opens up the notch controller.

 

Regards Kian. 

[murphaph]

I don't think BosKonay way saying what you think he was saying Kian 

I think he was just highlighting how long we can expect to wait for models coming out of China to go on sale (in general), ie a year from having the tooling to being available to purchase....and new tooling was/is required for the Mk3s.

Not wishing to speak for BosKonay that is 

[BosKonay]

Heh. Correct. I was simply giving the ballpark that at best you are looking at a year from engineering samples to delivery. And that’s if you can nail down factory slots. So once you’ve seen physical samples you can assume anything is about a year or so away. 

[WRENNEIRE]

Power shortages in China
Chinese New Year coming up soon
Lack of workers
Price of raw material & shipping going up by the day
No trains or flights allowed over Ukraine atm
The list goes on
And you wonder why things are delayed!

[murphaph]

2 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Power shortages in China
Chinese New Year coming up soon
Lack of workers
Price of raw material & shipping going up by the day
No trains or flights allowed over Ukraine atm
The list goes on
And you wonder why things are delayed!

All valid points and I wonder are some or all of these contributing to some manufacturers' decisions to repatriate at least some of their manufacturing to Europe. Märklin (to Hungary) have and I believe Dapol (to the UK) also. It'll be an interesting trend to watch over the coming years. Perhaps a cluster of contract manufacturers will open up around the Märklin site in Hungary, for example, as expertise is gained locally and ex-Märklin engineers decide they can set up their own operations for the contract market. I'm guessing that's what happened in Guangdong.

[Warbonnet]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

All valid points and I wonder are some or all of these contributing to some manufacturers' decisions to repatriate at least some of their manufacturing to Europe. Märklin (to Hungary) have and I believe Dapol (to the UK) also. It'll be an interesting trend to watch over the coming years. Perhaps a cluster of contract manufacturers will open up around the Märklin site in Hungary, for example, as expertise is gained locally and ex-Märklin engineers decide they can set up their own operations for the contract market. I'm guessing that's what happened in Guangdong.

The Dapol manufacturing in the UK is for very simple items, not OO gauge locomotives for instance. Marklin is reflected in price and comparative lack of separately applied parts. 

Should we bring our standard (IRM) models to European manufacturing, either minimum wage would need to be around €2 per hour, or RRP of a loco around €800 (If produced in a Western Europe developed economy). It's as simple as that. And that's before kitting out a factory, training a legion of workers, and them demonstrating the patience and skill required. Eastern Europe is still too unproven as an entity for the level of detail demanded in our markets. Not to mention politically volatile situation in Eastern Europe as we speak.  

It's not going to happen unless we want a serious erosion of our living standards, or we are happy to pay 4 times the price we currently do for an A Class. 

[murphaph]

I wasn't really thinking about IRM setting up its own factory in fairness  I was really just wondering aloud will more large European manufacturers follow the Märklin path and could that in time create the environment whereby a cluster of skilled contract manufacturing could spring up as it did in China. From what I understand of the Märklin operation, they tend to do the heavily mechanised stuff like injection moulding and casting in Germany and then ship those components to Hungary for finishing and assembly due to lower labour costs. I think they do assemble their normal h0 scale rolling stock in Hungary. I guess the other factor is that Chinese wages are rising too and as the wealth gap between China and (initially Eastern) Europe closes, the fundamentals that current practices are based on can certainly change. 

 

[Warbonnet]

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I wasn't really thinking about IRM setting up its own factory in fairness  I was really just wondering aloud will more large European manufacturers follow the Märklin path and could that in time create the environment whereby a cluster of skilled contract manufacturing could spring up as it did in China. From what I understand of the Märklin operation, they tend to do the heavily mechanised stuff like injection moulding and casting in Germany and then ship those components to Hungary for finishing and assembly due to lower labour costs. I think they do assemble their normal h0 scale rolling stock in Hungary. I guess the other factor is that Chinese wages are rising too and as the wealth gap between China and (initially Eastern) Europe closes, the fundamentals that current practices are based on can certainly change. 

 

Nor was I Phil, those are general points for any manufacturer who would be looking at it. Just substitute A Class (merely an example) for a 201, Class 66, Class 47, French, Swiss, etc)

If production in China is no longer viable it will move to a new economy, but I really cannot see that being Eastern Europe, considering that many of these nations have joined or wish to join the EU and improve their own living standards.

[murphaph]

It's a much broader topic than model railways for sure. I guess we already see places like Vietnam and even North Korea replacing some of the low end stuff that the Chinese used to do. The Chinese took on the stuff the Taiwanese used to do and the Taiwanese took on the stuff the Japanese used to do. Who knows....maybe someday our models will be made in Afghanistan.

[DJ Dangerous]

Interesting thoughts on the whole Chinese manufacturing topic. At the end of the day, we as purchasers of these models have to accept that to continue receiving models of this standard, for these prices, without accepting a drastic drop in our own living standards, HAVE to take advantage of somebody, be it the Taiwanese, the Chinese, or whoever comes next...

And there will be a "next" at some stage.

China's economic conditions will eventually improve to the point where they lose that competitive edge, and manufacturing will move somewhere else.

Living in Las Canarias, I can tell you that €800 a month for a 40 plus hour week is considered normal to good. Minimum wage is something like €650 per month. Even at €800 a month for 40 odd hours, that's €185 per week, or around €4,50 per hour.

There's the downside of somebody having to invest heavily in setting up manufacturing, in training the staff and allowing them gain experience, but this is already happening in Spain. Fifteen years ago, all of the plastic bric a brac crap sold here was made in China. Now, it's all made up in Spain, where wages are even higher than Las Canarias.

Then there's the upside of production still being waaaaaay cheaper than it would be in a first world place like Ireland, and everything being a lot closer to home. No more of this "it's on the other side of the world" when there's a problem - it's less than four hours on a flight here nowadays.

I suspect that at some stage over the coming years, we're going to see legislation designed to protect European jobs, by making it harder and more expensive to use cheap labour from lower wage economies. It may not be a case of production moving to Afghanistan or India because it's cheaper, it may be Bulgaria or wherever because it's the cheapest place with access to sell those products, whatever they may be, in Europe.

The Chinese bubble will definitely burst over the coming years, I'm sure everybody can agree on that.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

All valid points and I wonder are some or all of these contributing to some manufacturers' decisions to repatriate at least some of their manufacturing to Europe. Märklin (to Hungary) have and I believe Dapol (to the UK) also. It'll be an interesting trend to watch over the coming years. Perhaps a cluster of contract manufacturers will open up around the Märklin site in Hungary, for example, as expertise is gained locally and ex-Märklin engineers decide they can set up their own operations for the contract market. I'm guessing that's what happened in Guangdong.

New Bachmann and Hornby factory in Athboy?

[Niles]

On 27/1/2022 at 10:27 AM, murphaph said:

Quick question about the Cravens. Were they ever hauled in a scheduled train by steam traction or only later by preserved steam on specials? They came in right at the end of steam so I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing any photos of such but it's not my area of expertise (nothing is lol).

I was researching Cravens for an article in Five Foot Three many years ago after we put the set back into traffic. I came across at least one source that noted them being in the formation of a steam-hauled cross border working in the mid 60s (behind a UTA Jeep to be specific). I seem to remember coming across another instance subsequent to the article being published, I must dig out my notes...

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Niles said:

I was researching Cravens for an article in Five Foot Three many years ago after we put the set back into traffic. I came across at least one source that noted them being in the formation of a steam-hauled cross border working in the mid 60s (behind a UTA Jeep to be specific). I seem to remember coming across another instance subsequent to the article being published, I must dig out my notes...

Ah! I was referring to CIE only.

If you want to include the north, it is possible that one might have been included in the consist of a train between Dundalk and Great Victoria Street, specifically - and hauled, again specifically - by a "Jeep" and in the company of laminates or ex-GNR coaches in CIE livery.

A word of caution though; more than once at that time I personally encountered confusion amongst our northern colleagues on the difference between laminates and Cravens.

I would not rule out such a thing happening, though - but certainly not in any circumstances - even shunting - on CIE lines with CIE engines.

[Niles]

6 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

A word of caution though; more than once at that time I personally encountered confusion amongst our northern colleagues on the difference between laminates and Cravens.

That's a good point actually, even now there's a bit of confusion out there between Park Royals and Laminates, despite being very different profile wise.

Even on preserved workings, I think I traced the first instance of the RPSI having one on a hired set to be part of the North Kerry tour (removed for some legs, annoyingly the most photographed ones) in the early 70s. This caused a lot of midnight oil to be consumed between Tony and myself back in the day, the aul 3am 'look at this!' emails... 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Niles

[Noel]

If we've learned one thing from all manufacturers its that new models will arrive only when they arrive, not when promised, but they invariably are always worth the wait. We have been utterly spoilt for choice these past 10 years between Murphy Models, Irish Railway Models, Silverfox models, Irish Freight Models, MIR, SSM, Provincial Wagons, OO Works, D&M, etc. 30 years ago there was not one single scale model of an Irish loco nor one piece of rolling stock. The world changed when Patrick Murphy teamed up with Bachmann to produce the 141/181 class baby GMs around 2007, and its been nothing but progress since. We have an abundance of quality Irish rolling stock and locos from 1955 to 2021. Thank Goodness nobody has yet contemplated producing toy 22k yo-yo DMUs (ie literally pointless train operations). 

[murphaph]

Would you really say no to an AEC 2600 set in B&T Noel?

[railfan222]

10 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Heh. Correct. I was simply giving the ballpark that at best you are looking at a year from engineering samples to delivery. And that’s if you can nail down factory slots. So once you’ve seen physical samples you can assume anything is about a year or so away. 

Is Boskonay one of the team members at IRM?

 

Will Paddy Murphy really be releasing models of Cravens again and the BR Van/GSV?

 

Regards Kian.