Where to get provincial wagon kits?

[Majesitc_Trains]

I have seen quite a few posts with CIE wagons from provincial wagons, and they look pretty good. I have 1950s era CIE locomotives (an A and 372) but I do not have any rolling stock for these, and was wondering where to get these wagons from? The website appears to be dead, is the company still operating elsewhere?

Thanks.

[leslie10646]

Hi Majestic
I have had a lot of fun with the website which I must close down.

You can my kits from me  by emailing me on

lesliemcallister@aol.co

I’m Interrailing at the moment, but back in UK on  1 September. Almost every kit in stock.

Glad that you thought that the kits produce good results!

Leslie

 

—————————

Email me on lesliemcalliister@aol.com and I’ll send pictures when back from Austria / Germany on 1 September.

Yes, I’ll be at Raheny but let me know your needs before - I have been known to sell out of some kits!

Leslie

[Broithe]

@leslie10646 will be along shortly to deal with your query.

[leslie10646]

Hi Majestic
I have had a lot of fun with the website which I must close down.

You can my kits from me  by emailing me on

lesliemcallister@aol.co

I’m Interrailing at the moment, but back in UK on  1 September. Almost every kit in stock.

Glad that you thought that the kits produce good results!

Leslie

 

[flange lubricator]

13 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Hi Majestic
I have had a lot of fun with the website which I must close down.

You can my kits from me  by emailing me on

lesliemcallister@aol.co

I’m Interrailing at the moment, but back in UK on  1 September. Almost every kit in stock.

Glad that you thought that the kits produce good results!

Leslie

 

Will you be at the show in Dublin in October Leslie .

[Patrick Davey]

Leslie what about even a Facebook page?

[Majesitc_Trains]

8 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Hi Majestic
I have had a lot of fun with the website which I must close down.

You can my kits from me  by emailing me on

lesliemcallister@aol.co

I’m Interrailing at the moment, but back in UK on  1 September. Almost every kit in stock.

Glad that you thought that the kits produce good results!

Leslie

 

Hi, I'm not too familiar with all the kits you have in the range, which ones do you make?

I noticed some Bullied Wagons and covered H wagons in some photos on another thread which look appealing, and do you have any brake van kits?

[NorthWallDocker]

If this might help in the interim, here is Leslie's list of models from 2020, subject to his current stock and any price changes:
 

CIE 1950 cattle wagon		@	£29.00
CIE 1950 cattle wagon FIVE pack		@	£140.00
CIE 1950 cattle wagon TEN pack		@	£275.00
GNR Y5 Passenger Van		@	£35.00
GSWR 10T Brake van		@	£33.00
UTA Brown Van		@	£29.00
CIE Sundries Container		@	£12.00
CIE 27xxx Container flat kit Flat		@	£20.00
CIE 27xxx Container flat with skeleton kit		@	£22.00
CIE 27xxx Container flat with Sundries Container kit		@	£30.00
CIE 27xxx Container skeleton flat with Sundries Container kit		@	£32.00
Beer Tubs		@	£9.00
CIE Bulleid Ballast Flat kit		@	£22.00
CIE Bulleid Corrugated sided Open kit		@	£23.00
CIE Bulleid 1953 "H" Van kit		@	£25.00
Double Beet Kit		@	£28.00
Double Beet Kit (Five Pack		@	£125.00
CIE Bulleid 1953 "H" Van RTR		@	£45.00
CIE Bulleid Corrugated sided RTR		@	£45.00
Beer Tubs		@	£9.00
GNR Cattle Wagon KIT		@	£25.00
SLNCR Cattle Wagon KIT		@	£25.00
GNR 9 ton van kit		@	£24.00
GNR 10 ton van Fitted		@	£25.00
GNR 10 ton van Unfitted		@	£24.00
Loco Coal Wagon KIT		@	£26.00
GNR or CIE Brake Van KIT		@	£29.00
Spoil Wagon kit		@	£27.00
John Milligen Coal No.58		@	£16.50
UTA Van No.2459		@	£13.50

 

 

[NorthWallDocker]

Also, to see saved copies of past Provincial Wagons web pages, try searching the "Wayback Machine" web crawler database at web.archive.org for "www.provincialwagons.com" and look at the second page of retrieved records captured 1 May 2019.  https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.provincialwagons.com*

 

[leslie10646]

9 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

Leslie what about even a Facebook page?

The Work of The Devil, Patrick, yon Faceless thing.

I’ll have a look!

[Colin R]

I am glads I found this, as I was wondering the worse, money being what it is right now, I am not sure if I can afford the wagons I need or want.

I would like to put together a 1950 period good train something in the 15 to 20 wagon length if that is possible. Would there have been a typical train formation of that period? 

If it helps I am thinking of something like a cross boarder type operation. 

Colin 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Colin R

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Colin R said:

I am glads I found this, as I was wondering the worse, money being what it is right now, I am not sure if I can afford the wagons I need or want.

I would like to put together a 1950 period good train something in the 15 to 20 wagon length if that is possible. Would there have been a typical train formation of that period? 

If it helps I am thinking of something like a cross boarder type operation. 

Colin 

Pretty typically, a cross-border goods train (which I saw every day 1960-70) was 35-40 wagons, the vast majority covered vans. At the dawn of the decade, a handful were UTA, but of ex-GN origin; I don't recall ever seeing a NCC or BCDR type on the GN main line but it's hypothetically possible. Most were CIE, either wooden or "H" vans, as time went on these dominated. Palvans appeared from the mid 60s. Grey "bubbles" appeared then too, in ones and twos scattered through the train. Guard's vans were inevitably standard CIE. All wagons, of course, were grey - the brown ones only appeared in the early seventies, but which time containerisation and bogie wagons weren't far away.

There were few open wagons and almost never flats; literally never "ordinary" tank wagons.

If you're going to go for a 20-wagon consist, may I recommend a typical formation might be one SSM CIE guards' van, ten Provoncial "H" vans, five Provincial GNR vans, one in GN livery, one UTA, and three with CIE logos. Very occasionally, for parcels, a CIE "Tin Van" was included. Also, two Provincial "Bullied" opens, one wooden open (anything repainted) and two grey bubbles.

 

[leslie10646]

Hi Colin

see Jon’s reply with which I agree but my GNR brake would been seen to 1965. 

Also see North Wall’s post above which is accurate - I can supply these kits by return.

I’ll be back for week or two next Wednesday, then I hope to be back Interrailing in Europe - at least the €9 tickets will be finished and people can get on trains again! 

Greetings from Aalen, Baden Wurtemburg - TORRENTIAL rain here tonight - makes home look like a desert!

Pray that it stops, please. I hope to have my first run with a Class 23 for 45 years tomorrow - I traveled behind fifty of them in 1970s. Super little 2-6-2s, built 1950s.

Leslie

The Site has just raised my “status” to Veteran!
 

I should think so - at 76 I must be one of the ten oldest contributors!
 

Thanks.

 

[Colin R]

Thanks Leslie I will be in touch and thanks Jon for the information about the cross boarder train sets. I take it for the longer length of train it would be more of H and GNR vans, Also what was a typical length of a cattle train special?

Colin

 

[leslie10646]

Ah, Colin - cattle specials!
 

i suspect anything from ten upwards?  JHB may have some ideas.

I have twenty GNR cattle wagons for the daily Enniskillen Shipper through Portadown Jct. And a few SLNCR ones.

Must set it up for a photo!

[jhb171achill]

21 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Ah, Colin - cattle specials!
 

i suspect anything from ten upwards?  JHB may have some ideas.

I have twenty GNR cattle wagons for the daily Enniskillen Shipper through Portadown Jct. And a few SLNCR ones.

Must set it up for a photo!

Yes, cattle will feature more and more on “Dugort Harbour”. I think I’ve about fifteen cattle wagons now, all Provincial; maybe a few more unmade.

The GNR goods vans that Leslie mentioned lasted into CIE & UTA days; one or two into NIR times but only on ballast trains.

However, their post-GNR lives were very different.

On the UTA, they dominated goods trains on the Derry Road and Warrenpoint branch until the closure in 1965 of both. They were seldom if ever seen on the former NCC lines, except in NIR times on ballast trains only.

Several went to CIE. However, unlike the UTA, CIE was heavily investing in new goods rolling stock, with the H vans and (after 1965) the palvan rapidly displacing older GNR goods stock, and standard CIE goods vans even more quickly replacing older GNR and GSWR goods brakes. Nonetheless, ex-GNR goods vans would have made sporadic appearances on cross-birder goods trains for a few years between 1958 and the early to mid 60s; after that, cross-birder stuff had standard cue vans, either planked (like the JM Design one) or sheeted like the SSM one.

With the UTA ending all internal goods trains in 1965 too, the only future for the two remaining GNR vans in the north was occasional use on ballast trains. Similarly, two old NCC ones.

It looks as if, due to displacement by more modern new CIE vans, the last in use on CIE were set aside some time between 1963 and 1965; one, at least, got a fresh coat of light grey paint and stencilled “flying snails” with, of course, an “N” after its original number. It was spotted on at least one occasion “down the country”; can’t remember details of the image, which is in the IRRS somewhere, but either on the Cork or Midland main lines.

Thus, there’s scope for a broad interpretation of Rule 1 there!

Edited August 30, 2022 by jhb171achill

[Colin R]

Thanks Jon for some reason or other and I have yet to go for a visit and that is the old Derry Road, may be it has a linked to the Donegal railway which is why I hope to model a little bit of it, just need to buy enough 21mm stock to operate some sort of typical day in the life of the Derry Road, set in the late 1940's to the early 1960's period.    

[jhb171achill]

On the subject of cattle wagons, and Provincial's products again........

The GNR cattle trucks that Leslie does would have made up the vast majority of the Enniskillen "Shipper" from there to Belfast's Maysfields cattle sidings, where Belfast Uncentral, or whatever wacko name they call it now, was eventually situated.

On the CIE system they would have been seen really only on ex-GN territory; Inchicore were churning out Provincial's CIE equivalents as quick as they could. However, the GNR vans lasted into UTA days on the Derry Road for a bit, and could conceivably have wandered after the GNR sections in the south became part of CIE. While such meanderings would have been short-lived, nonetheless they happened. Again, years ago and somewhere in the IRRS, I saw a picture of several in a CIE consist coming in off the Midland, probably off the Dublin & Meath branch via Clonsilla.

[DJ Dangerous]

On 22/8/2022 at 9:38 AM, leslie10646 said:

Hi Majestic
I have had a lot of fun with the website which I must close down.

You can my kits from me  by emailing me on

lesliemcallister@aol.co

I’m Interrailing at the moment, but back in UK on  1 September. Almost every kit in stock.

Glad that you thought that the kits produce good results!

Leslie

 

I think that there may be an "m" missing from your email address in some of your posts, @leslie10646

[leslie10646]

Hi Dange

Yes, there is

I'm

lesliemcallister@aol.com

Leslie

[Lambeg man]

On 27/8/2022 at 10:49 PM, Colin R said:

Also what was a typical length of a cattle train special?

While the GNR(B) ran the 'Enniskillen Shipper' on a daily basis up to the 1957 line closures, there is little photographic evidence of similar LENGTHY cattle specials in the succeeding years. By 1958 refrigeration was beginning to kick in, reducing the need for the mass movement of live beasts, Post 1957 the goodly cattle dealers operating in the West of Ireland would have consigned their cattle to Dublin rather than Belfast (if they used rail at all). I think I may be correct to say that no photographs of post 1958 cross-border goods trains show any cattle wagons in their consist. Neither do any 1960's photographers appear to have ever captured any lengthy cattle specials operating over UTA lines. I would be very pleased to be corrected on either statement!

However there is a photograph taken at the south end of Portadown goods yard (dated 22/10/1959) on the last page of Norman Johnston's second ULSTER IN THE 1950's book. It shows a late afternoon Railcar heading for Newry and passing what Norman described as a "Down cattle train heading for Belfast". Where it may have originated is not given. It could only have come from a fair either somewhere up the Derry Road or the Newry direction.

For what it is worth I have seven heavily modified ex-BR cattle wagons masquerading as GNR(I) types. Would love an excuse to use them on my 1960's 'Scarva' layout!

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

While the GNR(B) ran the 'Enniskillen Shipper' on a daily basis up to the 1957 line closures, there is little photographic evidence of similar LENGTHY cattle specials in the succeeding years. By 1958 refrigeration was beginning to kick in, reducing the need for the mass movement of live beasts, Post 1957 the goodly cattle dealers operating in the West of Ireland would have consigned their cattle to Dublin rather than Belfast (if they used rail at all). I think I may be correct to say that no photographs of post 1958 cross-border goods trains show any cattle wagons in their consist. Neither do any 1960's photographers appear to have ever captured any lengthy cattle specials operating over UTA lines. I would be very pleased to be corrected on either statement!

 

The point about refrigeration is an interesting one with a shift from exporting cattle 'on the hoof" to exporting frozen and chilled meat often by rail instead of cattle wagons meat was often transported in British Railways meat containers in open wagons, Oliver Doyle wrote about CIE operating special weekend goods trains to transport meat from the Clover Meats Waterford Plant to Rosslare Harbour, during weekdays the traffic was conveyed on British Railways Waterford-South Wales cargo services.

Although some long distance cattle traffic remained into the 70s, Loughrea, Cork and Tralee to meat works in the Dublin area and Roscrea live stock traffic on the CIE system declined significantly during the 1960s, with 115 cattle wagons built in 1953 converted into Ballast Wagons in 1964 

CIE appears to have captured the majority of the former SLNCR cattle traffic introduced a daily Sligo-North Wall shipper which also transported traffic from the Dromod meat processing plant. The UTA attempted to capture West of Ireland-Belfast traffic following the closure of the  SLNCR by sending cattle lorries to cattle fairs, there is a story of a UTA goods agent fumbling in his pocket and pulling out a set of rosary beads while negotiating with some West of Ireland cattle dealers who were probably more interested in 'luck shilling' to quench the deal rather than the UTA agents religious persuasion.

The MGWR WTT allowed 'cattle specials running through to be made up to 25 wagons including van. This would have been based on the 14' wagons the standard length for cattle wagons used by most Irish railways including the GNR(I) and MGWR.

 

[murphaph]

When was the meat factory on the Grand Canal in Dublin closed? That would have probably been rail served as well one would imagine. If I'm not mistaken it was built on the former DSER carriage works site.

[leslie10646]

10 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

While the GNR(B) ran the 'Enniskillen Shipper' on a daily basis up to the 1957 line closures, there is little photographic evidence of similar LENGTHY cattle specials in the succeeding years. By 1958 refrigeration was beginning to kick in, reducing the need for the mass movement of live beasts, Post 1957 the goodly cattle dealers operating in the West of Ireland would have consigned their cattle to Dublin rather than Belfast (if they used rail at all). I think I may be correct to say that no photographs of post 1958 cross-border goods trains show any cattle wagons in their consist. Neither do any 1960's photographers appear to have ever captured any lengthy cattle specials operating over UTA lines. I would be very pleased to be corrected on either statement!.

 

Mutter, mutter, what's wrong with my GNR Cattle wagons?

Like Mr LB, I can't think of too many photos of long cattle specials in the late 1950s / early 1960s. As I've previously commented on this forum, the CIE Weekly Notice used to have a couple of dozen PAGES of details of that week's arrangements for cattle specials. I think that the most I noted in the brilliant collection held by the IRRS was about FORTY pages. It usually went right down in detail to the name of the inspector attending the fair and how many drovers etc he would have with him.

Back to The Shipper.

This photo was given to me by the late Drew Donaldson when he searched for photos of the Centre of Universe for me. I believe that it shows a (short) Enniskillen Shipper drifting through Richhill behind GNR(I) P Class No.105. The wagons all appear to be standard GNR cattle wagons with a standard brake at the rear - all available from Provincial Wagons - you'll have to build your own Class P!

Richhill is having a moment in the spotlight, as the gates of Hillsborough Castle (all over TV today as King Charles visits The Province) were PINCHED in 1745 from Richhill Castle. There was much comment on this during the commentary on the royal visit.

Small world.

 

[Galteemore]

Interesting choice of motive power. A favourite of Drew’s. I understand there was some consternation among the pilgrims at Pettigo one day when Drew loudly announced his views on the impending train ‘(expletive) I’d love a P’……

[LARNE CABIN]

That's a great photo of Richhill, Leslie.

[leslie10646]

Yes, it is indeed!

Drew caught a lot of detail useful for attempting to model the place.

Looking at it again today as I posted it, I realised that there was an overbridge to the South of the station - a useful way of hiding the "Rest of the World" on the model?

I always knew about the bridge to the North - "Buntings Bridge" - still there - but the cutting has been filled in and  you'd be pushed to realise that there'd ever been a railway there.

[jhb171achill]

17 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

While the GNR(B) ran the 'Enniskillen Shipper' on a daily basis up to the 1957 line closures, there is little photographic evidence of similar LENGTHY cattle specials in the succeeding years. By 1958 refrigeration was beginning to kick in, reducing the need for the mass movement of live beasts, Post 1957 the goodly cattle dealers operating in the West of Ireland would have consigned their cattle to Dublin rather than Belfast (if they used rail at all). I think I may be correct to say that no photographs of post 1958 cross-border goods trains show any cattle wagons in their consist. Neither do any 1960's photographers appear to have ever captured any lengthy cattle specials operating over UTA lines. I would be very pleased to be corrected on either statement!

You're absolutely right on the dearth of photos - maybe it was whatever time of day they went through places east of the bann, where people had cars and cameras!

However, as jhbSenior would have attested, cattle wagons - mostly of older CIE (GSWR / MGWR) or Provincial GNR / SLNCR varieties, especially the latter - very definitely rattled over the derry Road and down the Lagan Valley; he saw the "Shipper" from his office on a daily basis. As I've posted here before, he was watching it shunting one evening in Enniskillen, and the loco hitched up to a Sligo Leitrim wagon. As it moved, off came the buffer beam of the wagon - it was in such a bad state. Unload the "beasts", find a GNR replacement, stare suspiciously at any other SLNCR wagon on the train, and away ye go.

[airfixfan]

Richill .today

[Lambeg man]

7 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

I believe that it shows a (short) Enniskillen Shipper drifting through Richhill behind GNR(I) P Class No.105.

The 'Enniskillen Shipper' appears to have been a regular working to take traffic offered to the GNR by companies to the west. The GNR weekly circulars are full of separate 'Fair' workings that generated other cattle trains bound for Maysfields. Your photo may be one these.

Another point is the date. The train is travelling towards Belfast on what would have the UP line on this section of the GNR. Both the UP and DOWN lines appear to be together as far as that bridge in the distance. Correct me if I am wrong, but was not the Richill-Armagh section singled in circa 1933? I would have expected to see apoint on the other side of the level crossing.

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

You're absolutely right on the dearth of photos - maybe it was whatever time of day they went through places east of the bann, where people had cars and cameras!

Surely all cattle specials irrespective of where they came from, had to be into Maysfields between 16.00 and 17.00 to allow time for the cattle to be unloaded and 'drovered' to Donegall Quay? Thus any specials would have run in daylight hours, no matter what time of year? Norman Johnston identifies the Railcar in the afore mentioned photograph as being the 16.25 ex-Portadown.

As to whether the UTA continued to service Fairs on the former GNR lines (where the station was still open) after 1958, perhaps someone with a 1959/1960 copy of the UTA (GN area) Weekly Circular could advise if specials were still being notified by then? 

[leslie10646]

LB

You're dead right about the singling beyond Richhill, after which part of the old "Up" road became a relief siding. There was a southern crossover before the singling, but I don't know how far out it was. So it would have been retained in any case, I assume wherever it had been located.

The cabin diagram (which is over the model of the station upstairs) gives no indication of how far away the crossover was - BUT it does show that there had been a siding there even in doubletrack days.

[leslie10646]

2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Richill .today

Not at all, it looks like this .......

The Shipper drifts through (a work in progress) Richhill this afternoon.

I tried to reproduce the Drew shot, but my PP wouldn't touch a seventeen wagon plus brakevan train. On the other hand Roderick's wee UG just romps along with it!

I hope that Galteemore LIKES the SLNCR interlopers.

Wagons by - ah, I've forgotten (it's an age thing!).

 

[Galteemore]

Lovely Leslie but ‘interlopers’? I think you mean mainstay of traffic ! 

[jhb171achill]

44 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

Surely all cattle specials irrespective of where they came from, had to be into Maysfields between 16.00 and 17.00 to allow time for the cattle to be unloaded and 'drovered' to Donegall Quay? Thus any specials would have run in daylight hours, no matter what time of year? Norman Johnston identifies the Railcar in the afore mentioned photograph as being the 16.25 ex-Portadown.

 

Possibly - but still a dearth of photos! You think of all the "spotters" along the Lagan Valley, and all the pictures of all stations Lisburn - Belfast, and not a picture in sight.

I remember seeing the remains of the cattle platform at Lisburn. I think someone told me one time that they would have "watered" the cattle there occasionally if the thing was running late........

[Galteemore]

Is a nice photo in a recent New Irish Lines of a cattle train on the main near Moira. 

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Is a nice photo in a recent New Irish Lines of a cattle train on the main near Moira. 

Quite possibly Charlie Friel is the man to go to for pictures of cattle specials anywhere on the GNR. There WERE quite a few. Senior used to talk about busy cattle days in Enniskillen and Clones too, and I believe the Oldcastle branch had busy enough cattle traffic at times.

As did the Banbridge lines.