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Dave Dawes
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Hello all.

I am having a think on the home/exhibition layout.

I love the idea of a small terminus with a harbour side. 

Did CIE have any fish type vans in the early 60s or would the fish traffic have gone via road?

Thanks as always 

Dave, Lancashire 

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1 hour ago, Dave Dawes said:

Hello all.

I am having a think on the home/exhibition layout.

I love the idea of a small terminus with a harbour side. 

 

Baltimore would be an interesting one in regards to this one. A small (enough!) terminus with a small extension out the pier (the most southerly bit of rail in Ireland) for fish traffic. Although it closed in 1961, has potential and I haven’t seen it done  

 

7EE6C503-A1DA-4DD4-86C2-0C70AC3FE992.jpeg.3abd706ac933da8b43902c1c46e026c3.jpeg

 

7C68D8DA-8753-468F-A993-458555FEBF2A.jpeg.35d9d51c6002fdee6f1b9ba8f5de6f99.jpeg

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Baltimore railway station building is in tact but now derelict. In Use until about 2016 or some time like that. A later CBSC red brick building like creagh and Bandon (high level)

5CD67842-8DEB-43EB-880C-80F51D867C1F.jpeg.65cd5704c95d3666aa3da72516c46a45.jpeg

the shed you see below was once an engine shed but sold to the yacht club. Original C&B rails ran out of this shed until 2004! I have a photo somehere of Baltimore station building with period posters and of course….fresh and pristine paintwork 


C1F029B4-4B68-46CA-B014-81D3D0BD1EEC.jpeg.e26ab87c3f06ca5ea1be7120ac5b7e19.jpeg

a Baltimore mixed train would be easy to make up. A unique running on the Baltimore line was timber for the boat building that went on next door (a tradition that continues today) I would add the timber and maybe a hattons 6 wheeler to the train, maybe a few less open wagons and different types of vans and it would be perfect 

C0F11AF0-99AC-44FD-8818-86200C420DE3.thumb.jpeg.1c4158798c3edf20365ff240eb0faf00.jpeg
 

for motive power there is few options. a great mix of GSWR, DSER and WWLR ran the branch before being taken over by C class locomotives entirly. AEC railcars went out there for the Baltimore regatta.  The A class were to heavy for the Illen river bridge so never ventured this far south 

 

Edited by Westcorkrailway
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3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Baltimore would be an interesting one in regards to this one. A small (enough!) terminus with a small extension out the pier (the most southerly bit of rail in Ireland) for fish traffic. Although it closed in 1961, has potential and I haven’t seen it done  

 

7EE6C503-A1DA-4DD4-86C2-0C70AC3FE992.jpeg.3abd706ac933da8b43902c1c46e026c3.jpeg

 

7C68D8DA-8753-468F-A993-458555FEBF2A.jpeg.35d9d51c6002fdee6f1b9ba8f5de6f99.jpeg

Lovely idea, just too long with the extension to the dock

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27 minutes ago, Dave Dawes said:

Lovely idea, just too long with the extension to the dock

On the CBSC…Courtmacsherry comes to mind, as does kinsale (closed 1931)  which both took fish traffic and would be shorter then the pier extension

 

@Andy Cundick has done a 7mm layout of courtmacsherry that’s ABSOLUTLY sublime  

 

mother then that. I’m not sure where else on CIE rails was fish traffic big….possibly valentia? Fenit?

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I actually remember shipping fish on CIE. In the days before fish farming, my grandfather regularly caught salmon on the River Bonet in Leitrim - valuable fish which were much in demand in the capital. Up until 57 it travelled to Dublin via SLNC- the railcar stopped at Lisgorman to collect, and it was weighed on the scales at Dromahair station to ensure the best weight was recorded. From 57 to c1980 it travelled by road to the railhead, wrapped in sacking and reeds, and was carried in the guards van of the Sligo Mail. I well recall one such trip, racing over the mountain to Sligo to catch the train. I suspect that much fish traffic was of similar nature. 

Edited by Galteemore
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3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Baltimore railway station building is in tact but now derelict. In Use until about 2016 or some time like that. A later CBSC red brick building like creagh and Bandon (high level)

5CD67842-8DEB-43EB-880C-80F51D867C1F.jpeg.65cd5704c95d3666aa3da72516c46a45.jpeg

the shed you see below was once an engine shed but sold to the yacht club. Original C&B rails ran out of this shed until 2004! I have a photo somehere of Baltimore station building with period posters and of course….fresh and pristine paintwork 


C1F029B4-4B68-46CA-B014-81D3D0BD1EEC.jpeg.e26ab87c3f06ca5ea1be7120ac5b7e19.jpeg

a Baltimore mixed train would be easy to make up. A unique running on the Baltimore line was timber for the boat building that went on next door (a tradition that continues today) I would add the timber and maybe a hattons 6 wheeler to the train, maybe a few less open wagons and different types of vans and it would be perfect 

C0F11AF0-99AC-44FD-8818-86200C420DE3.thumb.jpeg.1c4158798c3edf20365ff240eb0faf00.jpeg
 

for motive power there is few options. a great mix of GSWR, DSER and WWLR ran the branch before being taken over by C class locomotives entirly. AEC railcars went out there for the Baltimore regatta.  The A class were to heavy for the Illen river bridge so never ventured this far south 

 

AEC railcars were also the almost staple diet of the Cork - Bantry passenger service from about 1953 to closure. The C's worked the goods and the branches.

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

I actually remember shipping fish on CIE. In the days before fish farming, my grandfather regularly caught salmon on the River Bonet in Leitrim - valuable fish which were much in demand in the capital. Up until 57 it travelled to Dublin via SLNC- the railcar stopped at Lisgorman to collect, and it was weighed on the scales at Dromahair station to ensure the best weight was recorded. From 57 to c1980 it travelled by road to the railhead, wrapped in sacking and reeds, and was carried in the guards van of the Sligo Mail. I well recall one such trip, racing over the mountain to Sligo to catch the train. I suspect that much fish traffic was of similar nature. 

The Guard's Van must have been stinking by the time it got to Dublin!

7 hours ago, Dave Dawes said:

Hello all.

I am having a think on the home/exhibition layout.

I love the idea of a small terminus with a harbour side. 

Did CIE have any fish type vans in the early 60s or would the fish traffic have gone via road?

Thanks as always 

Dave, Lancashire 

They used old fish vans, dating back to pre-1925 (pre-GSR) days. They never built any of their own. Fish was handled at a number of places. Going back to GSR times, even more places (e.g. Achill and to a very small extent, Clifden). Latterly, West Cork & Valentia mostly. Possibly somewhere on the South Wexford?

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33 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

AEC railcars were also the almost staple diet of the Cork - Bantry passenger service from about 1953 to closure. The C's worked the goods and the branches.

The Guard's Van must have been stinking by the time it got to Dublin!

They used old fish vans, dating back to pre-1925 (pre-GSR) days. They never built any of their own. Fish was handled at a number of places. Going back to GSR times, even more places (e.g. Achill and to a very small extent, Clifden). Latterly, West Cork & Valentia mostly. Possibly somewhere on the South Wexford?

Schull was a station that took fish traffic (although in this case it would be in the wrong gauge for David to model) I’m sure most other narrow gauge railways like the west Clare, T&D and railways of Donegal had fish traffic? 
 

The only other place that could have had fish traffic is that place north of ballina….can’t think of the name 

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6 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Schull was a station that took fish traffic (although in this case it would be in the wrong gauge for David to model) I’m sure most other narrow gauge railways like the west Clare, T&D and railways of Donegal had fish traffic? 
 

The only other place that could have had fish traffic is that place north of ballina….can’t think of the name 

Killala. And yes, Schull too, and Killybegs had a pretty busy fish traffic, as did Ardglass, Co Down.

Dingle too - it had a pier siding like Killybegs, Schull and Ardglass did.

Edited by jhb171achill
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The Tralee & Dingle Light Railway had a harbor spur at Dingle.  Rolling stock in 00n3 is affordably available in kit form from Dundas Models (https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/category/512-dundas-models-00n3-rolling-stock-kits).  I don't know if the butter van(s) were used for fish too, but that's a book-research question.  You might feel inspiration from the Cheshire Model Railway Club's layout "Dingle":  https://www.narrowgaugenorth.org.uk/index.php/exhibitors/previous-years/97-dingle.

Reinforcing what others mentioned, Andy Cundick's exhibition layouts of Valentia and Courtmacsherry simply stun and inspire.  In the vicinity of Killybegs, Dr. Alan Gee has published many articles about his several Donegal 00n3 railway layouts and models.  Richard Ellis-Hobbs offers 00n3 3-D printed kits of Burtonport Extension Railway carriages on Shapeways (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/glr3dmodeldesign).  Mannin Models offers a 3-D printed locomotive body for Schull & Skibbereen locomotive 4, minus 12mm gauge chassis for 4-4-0.  If you wanted to "compromise" on gauge, someone is offering a S & S loco with 9mm chassis (2' 3" scale gauge) right now:  https://ngrm-online.com/index.php?/forums/topic/30677-update-to-mannin-models-skull-skibbereen-loco/.

You might also borrow from libraries some books about the harbor railways and harbors mentioned:  the Schull & Skibbereen, the Midland Great Western Railway, the Londonderry & Lough Swilly, the Letterkenny & Burtonport Extension Railway, and Fishguard & Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company.  Depending on size, the Dublin docks offer a lot of options, including a small Hiberd "Planet" switching locomotive, reproduced in 00 scale by Nonneminstre Models (http://www.nonneminstre.co.uk/4mm-standard-gauge.php)

Ordnance Survey maps offer site plans with railway structures and tracks that changed over time for the locales mentioned.

Have fun exploring and learning.

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Fish traffic from Valencia Harbour is likely to have been heavy into the late 50s, the 2:30pm Valencia Harbour-Tralee 'Perishable" connected with the Night Mail with a 3:50am arrival at Kingsbridge is likely to have carried urgent fish traffic for export and the Dublin Fish Market.

There was lobbying for Congested Board funding for a rail served fish pier at Valencia Harbour, but nothing happened apparently as a result of rivalry between Valencia and Kenmare interests.

Fish traffic from Valencia appears to have been mainly carried in Standard IRCH wooden bodied vans (similar to Provincial Wagons std GNR van), the standard vans with some louvred examples appear in the majority of photos of the the station.

MGWR Fish Vans:

The MGWR vans appear to have been used to carry both meat and fish traffic, their classification varied between Fish and Meat Vans at various stages under MGWR ownership.

The vans appear to have lasted into the late 1950s there is a FW Shuttleworth photo of the consist of Night Mail at Sligo which includes an ex-MGWR Fish Van and 6w TPO coupled to recently introduced Bulleid 4w vans, there is also a late 50s photo of a Fish Van at Manulla Junction. 

Photos in GSWR days which show single MGWR Fish Vans coupled next to the locomotive in Achill and Ballina Branch line passenger and mixed trains indicates that fish traffic originated at Achill Sound, Killala and Ballina. The consist of the Ballina Branch train was made up of a Fish Van and 3 w wheelers, the Achill Mixed a Fish Van, ex-MGWR bogie coach, 6w van, followed by a string of wagons.

The etched parts for the MGWR Fish Van is available to order, some of the castings may be available from Dart Castings/MJT

 

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Dart Castings/MJT had all the castings for @Mayner's kits available in the past six months, except the 2308S sprung buffers.  I believe John's parts list included:

3006     £2.90     MGWR fish van: GWR vacuum cylinders
2261     £4.50     MGWR leaf springs, oil axle boxes (4)
2261A     £4.60   (alternative) MGWR oil axle boxes (12)
2286     £7.20   (alternative) MGWR 4' 3" leaf springs (12)
2308     £4.40   (alternative) MGWR fish van: unsprung buffers (4)
2308S     £5.90     MGWR fish van: sprung buffers (4)
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