I am making my first ever layout i am trying to make harcourt street line im doing harcourt, viaduct at mill town nine arches, dundrum station and foxrock station.

[james1994]

my question is how do i measure the height of things to scale. so if i want to make harcourt street station for example how do i measure in scale. like how high should a building be compared to the road and so on. also im finding it hard to know how much space i would need in terms of width. 

[james1994]

i am very new to this hobby i am finding it very hard to make a layout i think im overthinking everything. i think for harcourt street station the station is above street level which is all good but how high should that be right would like 3 feet height be enough or would i need to be bit higher. way im measuring is using a 00 1.76 dublin bus model so to get the scale right. now from there the layout would go to milltown viaduct then from that the layout goes to dundrum after that foxrock. should i get the bare bones of it down first like wiring and track then add other things later 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

Best of luck lad, it's an ambitious project, you may be overthinking it slightly seeing as it's your first venture, the danger would be that you would give up if it gets too complicated, personally I would just have a go and see how it looks before setting anything in concrete.

[james1994]

that be roughly where harcourt street station would be in that area you see

[james1994]

thanks i may need to clear my head take breath try calm myself for sure @Gabhal Luimnigh i think maybe make one section first as i think im trying to think too big too fast lost in detail. im making this with my dad too as well. 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by james1994

[Sean]

every foot in real life translates into 4mm in oo scale,

dont be afraid to extrapolate your ideas down to fit into your available space, the art of compromise can take time to master and not everything has to be exactly as it is in real life.

[leslie10646]

49 minutes ago, james1994 said:

my question is how do i measure the height of things to scale. so if i want to make harcourt street station for example how do i measure in scale. like how high should a building be compared to the road and so on. also im finding it hard to know how much space i would need in terms of width. 

Hi James and welcome.

Harcourt Street station building is still there, so you can pop along and measure it?

The line was elevated indeed. But how high?

There is a photo of a loco which went through the end wall and finished almost in the street. It was a little loco, so maybe 20 feet long?

Work out the angle it's at and do the sums?  I never was any good at maths ........

[DJ Dangerous]

Mmmmmh, Quality Street, Heroes, and is that a tin of Jacob's Elites?

[Mayner]

Harcourt Street would be extremely ambitious for a first layout particularly if your planning to scratchbuild a model of the station building which would be a major project in itself.

Its probably best to consider what aspects of model railway do you enjoy the most before deciding on the type of layout and space available.

Harcourt St, Milltown Viaduct and Dundrum Station would take a lot of space, time and effort to build in OO, but would fit in half-three quarters the space in N.

The station while relatively compact in length (excluding the fitting between Albert Place and Hatch Street, the was almost as wide with the carriage sidings/goods yard fanning out half the distance between Harcourt Street and Earlsfort Terrace.

The late Desmond Coakham published an excellent article in the Harcourt St line in CIE days which includes photos and trackplan of Harcourt St.

Railway Byelines Annual No5 published Irwell Press 2002 who may be able to help.

[Horsetan]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

Harcourt Street would be extremely ambitious for a first layout....

Doesn't everyone start off with big plans?

[Flying Snail]

Welcome James,

Looks like you have a nice space for a railway - and I spy a few pieces of rolling stock already. That being said, I agree with the others that you'll need to think carefully about what will work best in the space you have. I would suggest laying out a track plan using paper and playing around with a bit to get a feel for whats possible in your space. Obviously N would give you more room than OO, but the down side is less RTR rolling stock is available (i.e. none). Also, you don't have stick slavishly to the measurements of the prototype - you can compress bits here and there and still retain the character of the item you're modelling.

I'd also recommend going on to youtube and subscribing to a few channels. As you've picked an urban theme you'll be building a lot of buildings - so here's a channel to get you started that you might find helpful for the scenics: https://www.youtube.com/@Chandwell. You can see on this forum how effectively Chandwell's techniques can be transferred to an Irish setting by taking a look at the work of people like @Kevin Sweeney and his Ballywillan and Kent projects. While those guys are modelling in N / 2mm, I think you'll be able to scale the same techniques up to 4mm pretty effectively if you choose to stick with OO.

Also, when researching track plans, the Ordnance Survey have an online archive of maps that will prove helpful: https://osi.ie/services/geohive/

[Kevin Sweeney]

The Harcourt Street station house was 362 feet long by 138 feet wide. In OO this building would have a footprint of 1.448 metres by .552 metres. That would be a tight enough squeeze in the space available. In OO it would need 2 metres to accommodate the full width of the station. You could half that with N scale, but there is no Irish rolling stock available in that scale.

Starting a modelling career by scratch building a big station like Harcourt Street would be incredibly ambitious, a bit like learning to fly in a fighter jet rather than a Cessna. Dundrum or Foxrock would be a more realistic project to learn the craft and a better fit for the space available.

If you want to try card modelling for making buildings, Scalescenes have some free download kits. I started my modelling career with the free Scalescenes coal office. I spent several years building Scalescenes kits before I moved on to scratch building. As a scratch builder i have developed many techniques of my own, but my basic method is still based on the Scalescenes method.

R024 Weighbridge/Coal Office - Scalescenes

I know you are anxious to get cracking and do some great modelling, but realistically you are at the beginning of a very long road, you face many steep learning curves in the years ahead. I love modelling because it is such a contrast from the instant gratification and speed of the modern world. All progress in modelling comes from slow, diligent, application, there are no quick wins. You can build a model of Harcourt Street, all that stand between you and that goal is acquiring the technical and artistic skills to do it. But that will take time. In my early years modelling I was always in a rush to see a finished product and would cut corners to speed things up, time has taught me the virtue of patience.

I would also endorse Flying Snails suggestion to check out the Chandwell Youtube channel. Michael at Chanwell is the man who sets the standards I aspire to achieving.

For some practical tips on surveying a building you want to model, check out the second half of this classic BBC Model World video.

 

 

 

[Noel]

Measure twice cut once was the best bit of advice I ever got. Best wishes on what sounds like a fascinating project. Enjoy it and don't rush it.

[Broithe]

7 minutes ago, Noel said:

Measure twice cut once was the best bit of advice I ever got. 

Only twice?

I found a redundant steel bench where I worked. It was clearly a bit too long for where I wanted it to go, but I wanted it to fit as snuggly as possible. The shed was clearly an Imperial construction, although I had extended it slightly. 

I was quite bilingual in both systems, so measured the space 'in English' - then I took the pencil note to work the next day, borrowed a tape and marked the bench with the section to be cut out - it was six-legged and I intended to remove the right amount from one side of the central legs, leaving it lop-sided, but the right size, after it was welded back together.

I looked at the cut-lines and it just didn't 'look right', so I repeated the exercise, over several days. But, whatever I did, it all came out the same and I had become more convinced that something was wrong. I didn't want to go through the whole cutting and rewelding thing only to find, as seemed obvious, that it wouldn't fit in the shed.

After multiple circuits of this procedure, I eventually realised that I was using two different forms of 'English measurements' - inches on one tape and feet + inches on the other, borrowed' tape - thus, I was reading my note of 96 inches as 9'6" and getting an extra 18".

 

[Billycan]

James,

You might think of your layout in terms of embankments and bridges over a streetscape.  In that case railway bridges are about 17ft-0in above road level and that defines an important height for you including the trackbed in Harcourt Street station.  If you are modelling with DCC Concepts or Tortoise your point motors will probably have to suit that height and you may have to increase the embankment height a little to accommodate them.  You'll need to consider this in conjunction with building the embankment faces and whether off-the-shelf kit of predefined height will work or whether you will need to scratch build. Consider building the embankments and bridges in sections, starting with an easy one, so that you can learn as you go.   If you keep the embankment sections short (max 6ft-0ins) with all of the electrics within them it becomes easy to lift one out if you need to do any work on it.  No ducking under the supporting bench structure or lying on you back to do work.  Think out the height of the line and your street levels from Harcourt Street to Foxrock.  It starts at embankment height and descends to street level, then passes over the Milltown arches and back to street level.  Maybe you could keep the trackbed horizontal and adjust the street levels between the different sections using the art of compromise as suggested by Seán.  Think about modelling the street scenes at bench level and rising to track level.

A track plan is an excellent suggestion.  Buy a roll of lining wallpaper (about €2 in Dealz) and download the track templates from the PECO site.  Create a track plan for your stations and other sections on the lining paper and you can easily orientate it in one piece to best fit your space. The PECO printable track templates code 100 should be at 

peco printable track templates code 100 - Search (bing.com)

For the width and length you need OSI maps.  Talk to your friendly librarian to see what might be available so that you can get accurate photocopies and then you can scale dimensions from those.

Remember to record everything as you go.  Photograph your work-in-progress and if working in DCC don't forget to document the addresses of all your point motors. 

If you can get trains running sooner rather than later all the better.

Harcourt Street is a great station to model with arches, bridges, turntables, sheds, sidings for holding your fleet, and buildings.  Take your time and enjoy the journey.

 

 

[David Holman]

Very much admire the ambition, but many a project has foundered because it all  took too long.

 Probably the biggest question to consider is - are you mainly a builder, or an operator? Galteemore and I were talking about this at a show on Saturday. We will happily play trains at exhibitions, but at home, it is all about making stuff. If operation is your thing, a big project like this will take a long time before you ever get to see things moving and even longer before it looks like you want.

 My advice is always to start small and make something you can finish in a reasonable time scale. When I was working full time, I could generally complete a single baseboard (bare wood to track laid, wired and scenics) in a year. Therefore, starting from scratch and using commercial buildings, stock and so on, a small layout could easily take 12 to 18 months.

If you are keen on a big project, aim to break it down into smaller pieces. Find a section of Harcourt Street that would make an interesting diorama and build that. It can then be incorporated into the big project but if interests wanes you haven't wasted any time while still gaining valuable experience.

Sermon over!

 As to measuring stuff, large scale maps can give a good idea of station site sizes, while your own stock will tell you what space you might need too.  For example, using feet and inches, a coach or main line loco will be 60ft = 10 inches, so loco and five will be 5ft long. Therefore you will need up to 20ft/6m, just to model a terminus to fiddle yard, because a train needs to run 3x it's own length to feel right.

 As for other dimensions, study photos (plenty on Google) and use people to get a rough idea of height, or indeed railway stock. A coach will be about 4m tall. Also, standard doorways are usually about 2m, though grander entrances will be higher.

 Overall though, this hobby is more about the journey than the destination. We finish a project and immediately want to start a new one! So, take your time, study what folk are doing here, if you can, join a local club and most of all enjoy the ride. Being creative is a great antidote to the stresses and strains of the modern world, even if it does get frustrating at times.

[BosKonay]

Welcome! Echoing previous posters and as someone who thought 'great, I have a big 33x13 space, I'll model Connolly and surrounds and RPSI sheds, and then maybe Kildare, or a cement depot and a viaduct, gotta have one of those, and and and and....

What ended up happening was 'bits' of it were built, but it never really got beyond a loop before frustration, time demands and 'where do I even begin' sink in, resulting in me likely losing the interest of my two eldest in the process. 

I now have a nice little 8x4 or so, with scenery, that my youngest participates in, while I dream of the 'big' layout maybe when I'm retired

Unless you have a significant budget and NO OTHER demands on your time, start small is my recommendation too

Hope that helps!

[james1994]

first part of layout been made is dundrum station so that is what im working on. doing it one section at a time. im gonna be using lot of jim odea collection photos to help me visualise how it will look and its size. there is very small siding there too. will be putting cantinarys on the layout too so to represent a what if it survived and never closed and became a dart line. so rolling stock im going for is range of stuff really wanna represent what was on the line but also what potentially may been on it like cravens and mk 2 bs and so on. i will be adding also signal point rodding to make it look realisic that comes later of course. see in the picture there is siding there. gonna also try do the old bridge at dundrum not sure what i will use to make it maybe plasic kit bashed or make it from hand with like brass or something like that. gonna use some picures here of what it look like today probably i thought will help visualise it

Holdings_ View of the tracks, Dundrum, Co. Dublin_.pdf Holdings_ Station, Dundrum, Co. Dublin_.pdf

Edited November 1, 2023 by james1994

[james1994]

for the layout curves im pretty much going for as large a radius i can fit too. for tracks im using peco flexi and semi flexi track. for points they are large right and left hand points all will be electrofrog points. as for point motors ill be using cobalt ip digital. bus wire im thinking will be 1 mm. dropper wires 0.75 or something like that. red and black for droppers and blue and brown wires for bus wires. using tracksetta to help with my curves on the layout.

Edited November 1, 2023 by james1994

[james1994]

also how do you stop baseboards warping like is there anyway to prevent it or stop it. its more if that issue comes up wanna know how to fix it

Edited November 1, 2023 by james1994

[David Holman]

All about framing and the right materials. 6mm birchwood ply is the best I've found for flat surfaces and frames, but there are many options. Try getting hold of books like Iain Rice's Cameo Layouts for ideas.

[james1994]

That's some my cravens I have at the moment all I need is a van will be a regular on the layout once completed. I do have a snack cravens coach I will be getting park royals from irm too which will go nicely with this set. It was common for cravens and park royals to work together especially with rpsi in the 2000s on the Santa tours. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by james1994

[derek]

Good to see you back, James. Was beginning to give up on you

[james1994]

This is the tracks at Dundrum it's more less seeing what it looks like. Next stage drill holes for wires. I don't want to put anything down permanently yet till I see how it curves into the part of the layout. I am using pictures of dundrum is what I'm basing this on. The platform won't be as big as it was in real life but I will still have all the detail it had on the platforms. i will have 4 point motors in that area. the small siding that was at dundrum im not exactly sure what it was used for i think maybe a extra engine to be put there on a busy day or maybe a cattle stop or something like that. if any information comes up about the siding there i will try find it if i can.

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303664 thats what im using to help me with getting what you see here to look as it did in real life.

Edited November 5, 2023 by james1994

[james1994]

I wired up the electro frogs and will test them. I hadn't soldered points till today so I think I've done okay so far. if there is tips to my wiring here im all ears. i have the isolating rail joiners on them too.

Edited November 7, 2023 by james1994

[james1994]

On 5/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, derek said:

Good to see you back, James. Was beginning to give up on you

thanks there just working on it at moment making progress. just taking it step at a time

[james1994]

so i recently i was having hard time setting up a cobalt ip digital but not to worry i sorted it. pretty much to do with the addresses. point motor works perfectly. just has a few quirks to sort but nothing thats too difficult. i have the article to help here if anyone has the same issues i had. i have z21.

it is a issue that only pertains to the z21 and how it reads the addresses of the cobalt ip digital. the article explains it better. 

 

just thought to put it here since some other may get the same issues on there layout not know what to do. 

 

once you know what to do its pretty easy.

There's a example of the point motor working now.

 

 

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/TP-An-Alert-for-Roco-Z21-Accessory-Addressing-Problems.pdf

Edited November 28, 2023 by james1994

[TimO]

James, 

Delighted that you have got on top of using offset addressing to set up and control DCCconcepts Digital cobalt motor from the Z21.

[Georgeconna]

Z21 adds 3 or 4 to the Written address I think, only daft thing about it really.

[derek]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:23 PM, Georgeconna said:

Z21 adds 3 or 4 to the Written address I think, only daft thing about it really.

 

On 4/12/2023 at 8:22 PM, TimO said:

James, 

Delighted that you have got on top of using offset addressing to set up and control DCCconcepts Digital cobalt motor from the Z21.

 

On 28/11/2023 at 7:16 PM, james1994 said:

so i recently i was having hard time setting up a cobalt ip digital but not to worry i sorted it. pretty much to do with the addresses. point motor works perfectly. just has a few quirks to sort but nothing thats too difficult. i have the article to help here if anyone has the same issues i had. i have z21.

it is a issue that only pertains to the z21 and how it reads the addresses of the cobalt ip digital. the article explains it better. 

 

just thought to put it here since some other may get the same issues on there layout not know what to do. 

 

once you know what to do its pretty easy.

There's a example of the point motor working now.

 

 

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/TP-An-Alert-for-Roco-Z21-Accessory-Addressing-Problems.pdf

Are we still speaking English, or did I wake up in an alternate reality? 

[james1994]

So I added recently some train tech lights into the cravens. To get the body off is bit of fuss but with some patience and some cocktail sticks and a card to prize the body off. Hair be very gentle taking the body of the carriage off. The Murphy models mk 2 there is much easier to install lights just know that the body is bit transparent so use electrical tape or something else to help light not leak through it.

On 6/12/2023 at 7:42 PM, derek said:

 

 

Are we still speaking English, or did I wake up in an alternate reality? 

It can be bit like that at first going into DCC lol. But once you get the basics it's really good.

Edited December 18, 2023 by james1994

[james1994]

I've gotten a lower quadrant semaphore signal from dapol it's really good and looks the part there is definitely differnces to the one at Dundrum station but it's very minor differences in my opinion. It's a GWR one so it's lower quadrant which is ideal for my layout. Only difference is that the GWR one has ladder and a stand at the top the one at Dundrum doesn't have ladder from the picture I see. And few other things different but again it's very minor. I feel it captures what I want. It's motorised also and that is handy. Not too difficult to install 

Edited May 15 by james1994

[Horsetan]

The Dundrum starter signal has a lattice post, and might be better represented by the kit from Studio Scale Models, kit ref. S12.

The only disadvantage is that you'd have to build it, but it's a lot closer to the photo than the GWR signal.

[james1994]

25 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

The Dundrum starter signal has a lattice post, and might be better represented by the kit from Studio Scale Models, kit ref. S12.

The only disadvantage is that you'd have to build it, but it's a lot closer to the photo than the GWR signal.

What you mean by lettuce I'm bit new to it. Only reason I go for the motorised signal is it is more practical to install and works with DCC layout right away but I also see your point. I will be using mix of studio scale signals and dapol. 

[Georgeconna]

Lattice is the design of the post, the one from Dapol is a solid wooden post. Lattice was Metal as per the piccy below.