New Announcement - Hosanna Is A H Van

[Galteemore]

4 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Thanks, Iarnrod since I don't live in Ireland nor have I seen a prototype van can you run through what the major difference will be between the two types, Thank you in advance.

Lynbarn 

The answer is in post 1. Apart from the actual brake fittings, not much difference. 

[Colin R]

8 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

The answer is in post 1. Apart from the actual brake fittings, not much difference. 

Thanks, Galteemore for that

[iarnrod]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

Thanks, Iarnrod since I don't live in Ireland nor have I seen a prototype van can you run through what the major difference will be between the two types, Thank you in advance.

Lynbarn 

Main difference is one wagon variant (the one currently available from IRM) is fitted with brakes and a brake wheel and the more common variant has just a handbrake lever.

[DJ Dangerous]

So, are the H Vans and Grain Hoppers still on schedule, or will there be a slight delay?

Because, you know:

https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/ce31y2q76lko

[BosKonay]

Not a port we use thankfully 

[DJ Dangerous]

6 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

Not a port we use thankfully 

One of the containers made a decent enough landing, so all may not have been lost...

[Mol_PMB]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:12 PM, flange lubricator said:

Great addition to the range some of the vacuum brake versions also ran in green which were  in that livery to run in passenger trains which was short lived . 

https://archive.rcts.org.uk/shopviewer.php?pg=44353&code=CH06463C
 

 

On 17/7/2024 at 4:26 PM, jhb171achill said:

They were extremely short-lived. Once the green disappeared generally (i.e. the "black'n'tan" era commenced in late 1962), they were repainted grey.

Estimates of how many were turned out in green vary from half a dozen upwards. One source suggests that some fifty were TO BE turned out in that colour - had the green livery persisted, it's possible this might have happened with the fitted ones. But most certainly nothing even close to that number were ever green, or they'd have been seen all over the place, and probably well into the late 60s.

One contemporary source suggested that the initial plan was to paint just 3 or 4 in green specifically for the Cork - Tralee mails, though I have been unable to confirm this precisely. I believe that at the very least six were green, maybe more - but not for long.

 

I expect the green ones would have been a subset of those built with vac brakes from new, which were 18542-18861 according to Doyle & Hirsch, and the entry suggests that the vac-fitted batch were completed in early 1958 (because the subsequent numbered batch 18762-18861 are stated as being built in 1958).

The green one linked above is number 18829 (towards the end of the vac-fitted batch), shown in 1962.

Here's 18836, just a few numbers further on in the sequence, one of Ernie's photos on Flickr. This is dated 1960 and it seems to have a couple of years' worth of grime on it, so this was probably grey from new.

(incidentally, note the green snail on the other van)

'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 1 p. 98 shows 18861 in a very dark colour, looking very clean and new, in May 1958 (when it would have been pretty new). In fact Ernie's got the same photo on Flickr, here:

This was the last one built vac-fitted. What colour is it? At first I thought it could be a dark green (like the carriages) but it's not late 50's CIE green and I would suggest it's not far off black. Is this another livery option?

 

'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 2 p. 13 shows a green one with black ends, but only the top half is visible (so no number). It's possible that the different colour of the end may enable more green ones to be identified in black and white photos.

This photo from Ernie shows almost the same scene as the photo in the book, but a moment earlier or later. The van hidden behind Sambo is a green one, whereas the ones on the left and the right are grey:

On that topic, then this photo is interesting, as it shows two fitted H vans in a mail train, and the visible end looks a lot darker than the sides. The nearer one appears to be 18774 but I can't make out the second one. The date is 1961:

Anyway, I think I'm talking myself into buying some H vans before they all disappear!

 

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry, I realised that I got my numbers mixed up in the previous post, but this has highlighted an inconsistency.

Doyle and Hirsch say that:

18542-18761 were built with vacuum brakes for running with passenger trains. 18762-18861 which were built in 1958 had vacuum brakes fitted in 1961/2...

But this isn't consistent with Ernie's photo of grey 18836 dated 12th September 1960, which is clearly a vacuum braked vehicle. I can see the vac cylinder and crank, and the vac hose under the headstock, as well as the handbrake wheel (instead of lever).

According to Doyle and Hirsch, this van was built unfitted and had vacuum brakes fitted in 1961/2, i.e. after the date of this photo...

Similarly, the photo of 18861 in the near-black livery dated May 1958 when it was newly-built, shows the handwheel typical of the vac braked arrangement.

The entry in Doyle & Hirsch may be misleading, or both photos may be wrongly dated? Is anyone aware of other sources of data on these vans as-built? Is there a CIE wagon diagram book, for example?

 

One more observation on vac-braked H vans.

Here's are links to two of Jonathan Allen's photos on Flickr, which I think both show the same van, 18778, in a sequence of photos of the Youghal freight train dated 1977:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26356242948/in/album-72157714061711212/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40288038462/in/album-72157714061711212

It has a distinctive white-painted brake handwheel, and is branded 'Vac Brake' but the end view shows that the vacuum hose is missing.

The vac pipe and dummy are there, but the van appears to be running unfitted regardless of what it says on the side.

[Mayner]

31 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sorry, I realised that I got my numbers mixed up in the previous post, but this has highlighted an inconsistency.

Doyle and Hirsch say that:

18542-18761 were built with vacuum brakes for running with passenger trains. 18762-18861 which were built in 1958 had vacuum brakes fitted in 1961/2...

But this isn't consistent with Ernie's photo of grey 18836 dated 12th September 1960, which is clearly a vacuum braked vehicle. I can see the vac cylinder and crank, and the vac hose under the headstock, as well as the handbrake wheel (instead of lever).

According to Doyle and Hirsch, this van was built unfitted and had vacuum brakes fitted in 1961/2, i.e. after the date of this photo...

Similarly, the photo of 18861 in the near-black livery dated May 1958 when it was newly-built, shows the handwheel typical of the vac braked arrangement.

The entry in Doyle & Hirsch may be misleading, or both photos may be wrongly dated? Is anyone aware of other sources of data on these vans as-built? Is there a CIE wagon diagram book, for example?

 

One more observation on vac-braked H vans.

Here's are links to two of Jonathan Allen's photos on Flickr, which I think both show the same van, 18778, in a sequence of photos of the Youghal freight train dated 1977:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26356242948/in/album-72157714061711212/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40288038462/in/album-72157714061711212

It has a distinctive white-painted brake handwheel, and is branded 'Vac Brake' but the end view shows that the vacuum hose is missing.

The vac pipe and dummy are there, but the van appears to be running unfitted regardless of what it says on the side.

Doyle & Hirsch Irish rolling stock books are likely to be based on official CIE & NIR information, I am not aware of anyone publishing a "CIE Wagon Diagram Book".

Its possible that CIE isolated the Vac gear on some 'Fitted" H Vans while the vans were still in traffic. The 'fitted vans appear to have been originally intended to run attached to Passenger/Mail Trains and the fully fitted Derry Vacuum, the majority of CIE goods trains made up of conventional wagons ran unfitted until the end of loose coupled operations in the late 1970s (A coupling broke as the final loose coupled Dublin-Tralee goods climbed the Gullet out of Heuston and the train ran back into the passenger station.)

When I visited Mullingar in 81-82 "Fitted" H Vans stored waiting scrapping were all neatly lettered "Handbrake Only' indicating that the Vac gear was isolated during a works visit while still in traffic, unfortuinately I did not have a camera on the day. One of Jonathan Allen's photos is of a MPD railcar shunting an unfitted H Van (handbrake only) at Waterside indicating the North Wall-Derry "Derry Vacuum" scheduled to run as a fully fitted freight sometimes included 'unfitted' wagons"

[Mol_PMB]

 

That's interesting. And then there are photos like these two showing lengthy freight trains on the GNR main line, formed mostly of vac-braked stock, but the H van right at the front is the unfitted type. Unless it has been piped through, the train would be running entirely unfitted. That's a very odd way to form up a freight train, so perhaps some of them were through-piped.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52075325365

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52041976487

 

[Mol_PMB]

This is a page from 'Irish Railways Today' by Pender and Richards, published in 1967 so perhaps closer to being a primary source.

It refers to the H vans including the batch fitted later, and that they were painted green.

[jhb171achill]

The answers to these questions are as follows. The initial idea behind the green vans was that, being vac-braked, were to be used on Cork-Tralee mail trains, doubtless in place of several ancient 6-wheel full brakes. Initially, there were either 4 or 6 of them - I can't remember. Official CIE records suggest that there was a whiole series of them in green - this was absoluteloy not the case. There were (a) only a very small handful in grey, and (b) they weren't that way too long.

Next, that van in a very dark livery. Until about 1960, many older wagons were a much darker grey then the bulk of "H" vans or Palvans were - this is because about that time they started using a much lighter shade. This one could either be that in shadow, or possibly a "local" job in Cork or Limerick with an uncharacteristically darker shade. It isn't green - as standard carriage green was used.

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The answers to these questions are as follows. The initial idea behind the green vans was that, being vac-braked, were to be used on Cork-Tralee mail trains, doubtless in place of several ancient 6-wheel full brakes. Initially, there were either 4 or 6 of them - I can't remember. Official CIE records suggest that there was a whiole series of them in green - this was absoluteloy not the case. There were (a) only a very small handful in grey, and (b) they weren't that way too long.

Next, that van in a very dark livery. Until about 1960, many older wagons were a much darker grey then the bulk of "H" vans or Palvans were - this is because about that time they started using a much lighter shade. This one could either be that in shadow, or possibly a "local" job in Cork or Limerick with an uncharacteristically darker shade. It isn't green - as standard carriage green was used.

Many thanks for the info - that does help to clear up some things.

To illustrate it, here's a nice photo from Ernie on Flickr, which shows a fitted H van in what looks like the Tralee-Cork Mail. I'm not sure what colour it is under the grime:

 

[jhb171achill]

22 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks for the info - that does help to clear up some things.

To illustrate it, here's a nice photo from Ernie on Flickr, which shows a fitted H van in what looks like the Tralee-Cork Mail. I'm not sure what colour it is under the grime:

 

That one's grey. Interesting that by a very long margin, the oldest coach in the trai8n - is in the then-brend-new livery!

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

That's interesting. And then there are photos like these two showing lengthy freight trains on the GNR main line, formed mostly of vac-braked stock, but the H van right at the front is the unfitted type. Unless it has been piped through, the train would be running entirely unfitted. That's a very odd way to form up a freight train, so perhaps some of them were through-piped.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52075325365

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52041976487

 

The freights in the Lisburn photos are likely to be un-fitted, its unlikely that the two vans at the head of the train consisted are fitted or through piped. Interestingly in both photos a CIE built H Van is leading an older GSR van with external body planking. This particular type of van were a 'double skinned' version of the 'Irish Strandard' Van introduced during WW1 and used by several companies that made up the GSR and Great Northern, the double skinned body may have been to improve insulation to carry perishable traffic such as butter. 

The Belfast Line freight workings were an oddity on CIE as the majority of trains terminated at Dundalk rather than running through from Dublin or Drogheda to Belfast, possibly customs clearance purposes or possibly different Union agreements between train crews based in the Republic and Northern Ireland.

Whatever the reason Cross-Border freights continued as loose-coupled unfitted operations (with modern fitted wagons) for several years (early 80s) after the rail system in the South converted to fully fitted Liner Train operation. 

Its likely that the trains in the two photos are marshalled in station order wagons coupled next to the loco for Dundalk, followed by a cut of Cement Bubbles for Drogheda wagons for Dublin and destinations further South towards the rear of the train. 

Sometimes 'modern' fitted stock like Cement Bubbles, Container Flats and Bagged Cement wagons ran unfitted because it was more convenient to marshall a train in Station Order than marshal the fitted wagons next to the loco. In several photos of the Burma Road goods Bell Container wagons to and from Waterford are often marshalled next to the brake van at the rear of the train. In the Mid 70s Cement Bubbles to and from Ballina were often marshalled towards the middle of Limerick-Claremorris goods trains. During the first season of operation Platin-Ballinasloe/Roscommon Pallet Cement train operated as a 20 wagon Liner between Platin and Drogheda before splitting at Athlone and running as loose coupled workings complete with Brake Vans to their destination.

Edited November 4 by Mayner

[Warbonnet]

Hi everyone,

We had plenty of new shiny models to show at the recent Dublin Exhibition, but perhaps the production samples of our lovely fitted H Vans passed under the radar.

We received these samples just before the show and put them in our cabinet and they got some very favourable comments.

An absolute essential item for any CIE layout from the 1950s-1980s, the humble H Van visited the 4 corners of the network in both mixed and block train formations.

These fitted vans also found their way on mail trains, mixed in with TPO coaches.

Check them out below!

These models are now complete and on the way from our factory. We expect to have them in stock in January 2025.

Pre-order yours below for just €89.95 per triple pack, with 10% off when you order 2 packs or more, and 15% off when you order over 5 packs!
 

PRE-ORDER H VANS HERE!

[John-r]

They really do look the part, I think I was too busy looking at the top shelf new release, going to be a great addition to any layout, pre-ordered months ago, can't wait now.

[Patrick Davey]

Yum

[murphaph]

When was the last time a H van ran with the mail train?

[Mol_PMB]

16 minutes ago, murphaph said:

When was the last time a H van ran with the mail train?

Ernie's photo showing the mail at Westland Row a few posts up is dated 1961.

Ernie's photo showing the mail at Killarney a few posts up is dated 1963. (also note the green goods van in the siding in this photo, but it's not an H)

This photo from Roger Joanes on Flickr is from 1960:

Has anyone seen them in mail or passenger trains in the later 1960s?

[Patrick Davey]

These are the business.  Seriously tempted into getting another box....the brown ones are vvvvvvery nice.........

Update: second box ordered 

Edited November 6 by Patrick Davey

[Sea Breezer]

7 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi everyone,

We had plenty of new shiny models to show at the recent Dublin Exhibition, but perhaps the production samples of our lovely fitted H Vans passed under the radar.

We received these samples just before the show and put them in our cabinet and they got some very favourable comments.

An absolute essential item for any CIE layout from the 1950s-1980s, the humble H Van visited the 4 corners of the network in both mixed and block train formations.

These fitted vans also found their way on mail trains, mixed in with TPO coaches.

Check them out below!

These models are now complete and on the way from our factory. We expect to have them in stock in January 2025.

Pre-order yours below for just €89.95 per triple pack, with 10% off when you order 2 packs or more, and 15% off when you order over 5 packs!
 

PRE-ORDER H VANS HERE!

Great stuff lads, will they arrive around the same time as the bulk grain wagons?

[BosKonay]

4 minutes ago, Sea Breezer said:

Great stuff lads, will they arrive around the same time as the bulk grain wagons?

We will have a firm eta in the next day or so. Just finalizing options right now. 

[Mol_PMB]

In the hunt for green H vans, I've spotted another, though unfortunately it's only partly visible.

'Irish Railways in Colour' vol.1 (Ferris) page 75, lower photo at Limerick dated June 1961. It has green sides and black ends, is pretty clean, and is coupled to a dirty grey H van.

[Mol_PMB]

Regarding the nearly-black livery of the H van in this photo of Ernie's that we discussed before:

Here's another photo, also at Cork Albert Quay, which also shows a van in nearly-black livery, but this time we can see all of it, lower left. It has a green snail. There are also a couple more in nearly-black, on the distant right of the image. They are very much darker than the normal 'dark grey' which can be seen on some other wagons in the photo. I wonder if this nearly-black livery was a West Cork thing? Maybe they had some steam loco paint left over?

At first glance they all look like an H vans but on closer inspection the nearer van is one of the earlier batch on a conventional (non-triangulated) underframe, in the 17012-17211 series built in 1946. The long brake lever and the lack of a plate below the door help to identify it. Like these two (also from Ernie):

Incidentally, one of these would provide an interesting variation for a model - perhaps an IRM H van body on a conventional chassis. Which would free up a triangulated underframe to go under a palvan. Hmmm...

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Regarding the nearly-black livery of the H van in this photo of Ernie's that we discussed before:

Here's another photo, also at Cork Albert Quay, which also shows a van in nearly-black livery, but this time we can see all of it, lower left. It has a green snail. There are also a couple more in nearly-black, on the distant right of the image. They are very much darker than the normal 'dark grey' which can be seen on some other wagons in the photo. I wonder if this nearly-black livery was a West Cork thing? Maybe they had some steam loco paint left over?

At first glance they all look like an H vans but on closer inspection the nearer van is one of the earlier batch on a conventional (non-triangulated) underframe, in the 17012-17211 series built in 1946. The long brake lever and the lack of a plate below the door help to identify it. Like these two (also from Ernie):

Incidentally, one of these would provide an interesting variation for a model - perhaps an IRM H van body on a conventional chassis. Which would free up a triangulated underframe to go under a palvan. Hmmm...

 

3D printed 1946 & GSW Versions once available.

 

[Mol_PMB]

27 minutes ago, Mayner said:

 

3D printed 1946 & GSW Versions once available.

 

Ah, many thanks John. I had got the impression from this thread that you had ceased production, and the website is down too.
https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/16213-last-orders/

Are your models 21mm-friendly?

What do you still have available or to order?

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I've now got access to the IRRS photo archive and while I cannot post any photos here, they have enabled me to spot something I had missed before.

Apart from the colour, there was another difference with the green vans. They had their buffers spaced away from the headstocks by a few inches. This was to suit the screw couplings that were fitted, which are longer than normal 3-link couplings. The spacers look more complex than a simple block, and may have included some extra resilience.

This is very clear on the IRRS photo of three of the 'pallet van' door versions (including 18828) but can also be seen on the green van partly hidded by Sambo here:

Normal vac braked H vans had instanter couplings and the buffers mounted directly on the headstock.

[Mayner]

12 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Ah, many thanks John. I had got the impression from this thread that you had ceased production, and the website is down too.
https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/16213-last-orders/

Are your models 21mm-friendly?

What do you still have available or to order?

Models are 21mm-friendly. Pre-Bullied era wagons in service up to the mid-70s, including 4 different versions of the H Van!

I have ceased production of RTR wagons, but can supply 3D printed wagon parts to order shipped direct from our suppliers in China.

I'll do an update on the JM Design forum next week with indicative minimum order quantity, pricing and potential lead times.

[leslie10646]

I've probably done this before, but I will bear witness to the exceptionally high quality of the 3D printing from John's Chinese supplier. Miles better than anything I've seen from Europe.

[jhb171achill]

On 15/11/2024 at 8:15 PM, Mayner said:

On 16/11/2024 at 7:40 AM, Mol_PMB said:

On 15/11/2024 at 8:15 PM, Mayner said:

 

 

 

 

On 15/11/2024 at 8:15 PM, Mayner said:

 

 

On 15/11/2024 at 3:15 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Regarding the nearly-black livery of the H van in this photo of Ernie's that we discussed before:

Here's another photo, also at Cork Albert Quay, which also shows a van in nearly-black livery, but this time we can see all of it, lower left. It has a green snail. There are also a couple more in nearly-black, on the distant right of the image. They are very much darker than the normal 'dark grey' which can be seen on some other wagons in the photo. I wonder if this nearly-black livery was a West Cork thing? Maybe they had some steam loco paint left over?

 

Yes, I think this is inded a "West Cork" thing. It looks even darker than loco grey, but that could be dirt - possibly both pics are the same wagon and it's thus a local "unique". The carriages behind the "C" are also a local arrangement - the older pre-1955 dark green but WITHOUT lining. (And a very familiar face on the platform with trademark brown raincoat...)

Cork certainly did have stock of loco grey paint right up to the end. J15 No. 193 was repainted grey as late as about 1961 - probably 9along with one J18, I think) the last steam locos on CIE ever to get a full repaint. So it's possible they put it on thyat wagon.

In a reversal of this, jhbSenior told of visiting Inchicore one day on the 1930s, and seeing a recently outshopped J15 after a heavy overhaul and complete repaint. It was considerably lighter than normal, having been clad in WAGON grey all over; wonder how long it lasted under the heat of the smokebox and chimney....

For those whop prefer weathering, it will be noted how wagons in use a while accumulated a browinh tinge - this was brake dust off the brake blocks. hard to believe that with the exception of that very dark "H" van, every wagon in the picture above has initially been painted one of only two colours - the lighter grey shown in the open wagon in the centre of the picture, which started appearing around 1960/61, or else the traditional "wagon grey" shown on the open wagon with the "snail" to the left of the small cabin.

On the subject of livery in general, on the large cabin, the green and cream colour scheme which was applied by the GSR and later CIE to all stations up to the very early 1960s may be seen to good effect.

[jhb171achill]

On 6/11/2024 at 6:58 PM, BosKonay said:

We will have a firm eta in the next day or so. Just finalizing options right now. 

These are also suitable for a layout based in some parts of the North after 1958. They were very common on the Derry Road, and many regularly visited Newry and Warrenpoint.

They were of course not just common, but probably in the majority, of wagons within the Dublin - Dundalk - Belfast goods right up until loose-coupled wagons were withdrawn from this route. Prior to 1965, you'd rarely have seen them on the NCC, but after that when the Derry Road closed, they were to be seen on the Dundalk - Lisburn - Antrim - Derry (Waterside) goods. I remember seeing one isolated in Lisburn which had been taken out of a train with a fault of some sort. While doubtless extremely rare indeed, I have an idea that I've seen a picture of one on the Larne line - though what it might have been doing there I cannot imagine.

The earlier versions found their way all over the GNR in Fermanagh and Tyrone, and SLNCR too.

(The4se would be the grey / snauil ones, of course).

 

[Mol_PMB]

I stumbled across this web page http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw2407d.htm which has a nice selection of Irish colour photos from 1969, the rather monochrome period when all the wagons were grey and many of the locos were black!

Certainly plenty of grey H vans and their earlier cousins to be seen here, no outlandish colours at all:

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/dp2159.jpg

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/dp2141.jpg

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/dp2131.jpg