RTR Wagons - What next?

[Riversuir226]

No chance of that happening here

 

Amen bro:tumbsup:

[Arran]

Oh I wouldn't say that:)

 

I just waiting on some info on the chassis before I finally make my mind up on the 20ft chassis.

 

Regards Arran

[Killucan2]

May be a choice of rtr and kit.

 

M.

[Wexford70]

Would prefer ready to run. Am keen to get a long rake of cement bubbles in weathered grey to run behind the 121s that are in the pipeline.

[Mayner]

Would prefer ready to run. Am keen to get a long rake of cement bubbles in weathered grey to run behind the 121s that are in the pipeline.

 

I think there is a serious risk of duplication here, Leslie seems to be looking at commissioning a resin model from a scratchbuilt master similar to his GNR wagons, rather than commissioning a low priced mass produced wagons from China.

 

IFM & MISOR already have or are planning to release similar priced OO Gauge wagons including Cement Bubbles, tank wagons and hoppers.

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

I think there is a serious risk of duplication here,

 

 

I would think its better for customers that the more companies that make and sell Irish wagons the better. It then gives us the customer the choice to look at price/quality etc. At the minute the current market lacks competitive pricing but more importantly quality. I know when Leslie gets this up and running his wagons will be of the same high standard as other products in his range and there for others will have to step up their game if they want a share of the market and this can only be better for us the customer.

[Glenderg]

Well said Anto - higher standards are a must, especially for the prices being asked. R

[Warbonnet]

Well said Anto - higher standards are a must' date=' especially for the prices being asked. R[/quote']

 

I have to agree with this as well, I know it's a small market but if the higher prices need to be charged a good standard of quality needs to come in return.

[RedRich]

I think there is a serious risk of duplication here, Leslie seems to be looking at commissioning a resin model from a scratchbuilt master similar to his GNR wagons, rather than commissioning a low priced mass produced wagons from China.

 

IFM & MISOR already have or are planning to release similar priced OO Gauge wagons including Cement Bubbles, tank wagons and hoppers.

 

I agree John. At the moment Arann is looking into having a 20ft flat produced for the Bell containers also. There has been no definitive answer here as to whether the proposed wagons from Leslie would be manufactured to allow them to be easily converted to 21mm standards. Surely any model that is released of an item of an Irish prototype wagon should have the correct dimensions for width over head stocks and sole bars as a must. All the MM locos have the correct width between the bogies to allow conversion to 21mm, and if any wagon is to be produced to compliment them, then they should have the correct dimensions also. I know a lot of lads that are members of the Scalefour Society that model Irish Railways in 21mm that aren't members here that would be delighted with a venture like this, if the correct scale was reproduced. Parkside have been producing kit's of BR wagons in various scales for years and they are fine kit's and reasonably priced. Even if a Parkside type kit was to be produced with accurate dimensions surely 5 or 6 could be purchased for the price of an 071 or 201. I'm also sure that they would sell in fleet quantities. It's just another angle of looking at things.

 

Rich,

[Arran]

HI All

 

My thoughts are a chassis thats RTR with the option of different bodies as well at some point and im told that there other bodies like the beat wagon can go on this chassis along with others.

Now to a point this helps the kit market as its easy to make the tops but chassis are harder, and puts people of in time it takes to do them to a high enough std.

So a combination of the two greatly helps both sides to start with, But what wil happens long term is kit sales fall of drastically the More RTR is done ,and the minuit we did a chassis i will have non stop presure to put fully finnished bodies on them as well.

 

Regards Arran

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

Well said Arran. The issue of 21mm is of no use to manufacturers like yourself there is no money in the likes of your goodself catering for the 3-4 people on here that talk about it and one that actually has a layout of it. Its a very small market and when you factor in the fact that 99% of the people on this site model oo 4mm (16.5mm track) thats the way to go. You don't see the likes of PM, Bachmann etc etc producing anything for 21mm and quite frankly I don't see the point, most of the majority of us just want reasonably priced wagons of a good quality to run behind our 141/071/201s and starting to get into all this talk of will you do X Y Z just to please a few people is a waste of time and if manufacturers were to please them it would probably push the cost up for the rest of us. Looking forward to seeing the first photos of your first Irish wagon.

[Glenderg]

... surely 5 or 6 could be purchased for the price of an 071 or 201

 

I certainly could not stomach paying around €30 for any 4 wheeled wagon, nor I imagine could many members on here. It would have to have working brake gear for that money.... A rake of Cement bubbles would pay the mortgage for a month!

 

im told that there other bodies like the beat wagon can go on this chassis along with others

 

Not all 20' ft chassis are the same, but 1 done right is better than many done wrong!

 

You don't see the likes of PM, Bachmann etc etc producing anything for 21mm and quite frankly I don't see the point./QUOTE]

 

Bit harsh, but PM makes a scale model so it's easier to convert. Put a scale model Park Royal (over 40mm wide) on 16.5mm 00 track and you're bound to consider 21mm, but smaller wagons get away with it fortunately.

[RedRich]

I certainly could not stomach paying around €30 for any 4 wheeled wagon, nor I imagine could many members on here. It would have to have working brake gear for that money.... A rake of Cement bubbles would pay the mortgage for a month!

 

 

 

Not all 20' ft chassis are the same, but 1 done right is better than many done wrong!

 

You don't see the likes of PM, Bachmann etc etc producing anything for 21mm and quite frankly I don't see the point./QUOTE]

 

Bit harsh, but PM makes a scale model so it's easier to convert. Put a scale model Park Royal (over 40mm wide) on 16.5mm 00 track and you're bound to consider 21mm, but smaller wagons get away with it fortunately.

 

Very interesting points Richie. I can see the pricing of a wagon being a big factor for a lot of people. The 20ft chassis as you say are cosmetically different within the certain classes. MM locos are built to scale with 21mm modelling being catered for as it is, with the bogies being spaced correctly for the correct axle lenghts. I remember talking to Paddy Murphy many years ago before the 141-181 models were released and he said that that was one aspect that he was catering for and anyone that has measured the distance between bogie sides can clearly see that. All coaches or bogie vehicles produced for the UK modeller obviously also need to be compensated to some degree and that is the same here. Alan O'Rourke and Stephen Johnsons book on modelling Irish Railways has a section dedicated to that and track building. I know that Des at SSM factors 21mm into his Steam Loco Kit's also. There are a lot of 21mm modellers out there that aren't members here, New Irish Lines will prove that. Irish Modles are not just for people on this group.

 

Rich,

[jhb171achill]

I wonder has any scratch builder ever put together a layout using conventional 00 gauge track, but with models scaled down to maybe 3.5mm to the foot in order to make 00 gauge track accurately represent 5ft 3?

[Broithe]

I wonder has any scratch builder ever put together a layout using conventional 00 gauge track, but with models scaled down to maybe 3.5mm to the foot in order to make 00 gauge track accurately represent 5ft 3?

 

That would, effectively, be H0 - wouldn't it be more like 3mm/ft to use 00/H0 track for 5'3"..?

[jhb171achill]

Maybe it would, Broithe - I was just guessing. Maybe HO would actually be a better base for Irish modelling!

[Broithe]

Maybe it would, Broithe - I was just guessing. Maybe HO would actually be a better base for Irish modelling!

 

H0 would be closer at 1/87, and the track is near-enough right then, for 1,435 mm - but 1,600 mm track represented by 16.5 mm track is near-enough 1/100, which is virtually 3 mm/ft - not that it matters - I'm happy with decent-sized models that don't cost the Earth on track that's readily available and near-enough for me...

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

I'm happy with decent-sized models that don't cost the Earth on track that's readily available and near-enough for me...

 

 

Well said Broithe

[RedRich]

Maybe it would, Broithe - I was just guessing. Maybe HO would actually be a better base for Irish modelling!

ii

 

I'd say in HO scale 18mm EM Gauge or 18.33 would be better suited.

 

Rich,

[Sentinel281]

Concerning the question what combination of scale and gauge would lead to goot results I would like to add some thougts.

 

Coming from H0 as a continental modeller, 00 gauge was a completely new world to me or nearly. Certainly I had had a look in to my friends magazines (Railway modeller) but never thougt I would ever model anything in 00. Now I think I have a rather good comparison between two totally different markets, the German/ Swiss one and the Irish one. In Germany, following the division between '49 and '90 and the closure of a western german firm called Rokal, TT (what here is called 3mm gauge) at 1:120 was mostly a phenomenon of the (later called former) GDR. Since the reunion in 1990 many new models are produced in TT, now also to western prototypes from the still very popular epoch 3 (i.e. 1949 (after Nazi era) untill 1968 (when a big renumbering of all rolling stock took place)). Despite this devellopment it is still rather difficult to model a western layout in TT as road vehicles, street lamps, kits of modern buildings etc. are mainly produced to eastern prototypes.

Back to the irish theme. Beginning to model in another scale would mean, that all accessory material that is available in 00 gauge would be missing. In 1:87 yo can have excellent models of cars, busses and lorrys, but the market is completely different to that one in 00 gauge. I must admit, in the last few years some manufacturers established a collection of diecast HO models that are similar to those of the Corgi/EFE/Oxford/Pocket Bond range, but they still have only a limited range of prototypes. The great choice do you get as relatively high priced plastic models, you can google for example Brekina, Busch-Modelle or Herpa to get an impression. There is also a wide choice of US prototypes, but nearly no "non continental" ones.

As Ireland is still rather similar to GB (dont exclude me from the forum for that, please) concerning the use of road vehicles and standards of buildings (especially if one compares Ireland to any other country of the world) we now have a good choice of matching articles for model layouts. It is still easier to paint a red letterbox green than to have no pillar boxes in the chosen scale at all.

Another issue is, that if you take any rtr track system that has a 4'8,5" prototype, it will never be prototypical for 5'3", even when the distance between the rails is correct for the selcted scale. You will neither get the appropriate sleeper spacing nor the correct rail clips.

 

For the german market, nearly every important prototype got a reproduction in H0 scale. The whole market is diminishing. This means that the manufacturers tend to less important and espescially more regional or even local prototypes and smaller numbers of produced models. These circumstances make the german and the irish market more comparable. In my eyes the availability of rtr stock undoubtedly brings more people to model a certain theme but as time goes by, the demands made to the detailing of models always grow. You cannot imagine what problems are discussed in german forums: The availability of models is only a rare issue. The members discuss which of the (in one case four) manufactuers does the best model, if the fittings of the kettle are prototypical for the special machine the manufacturer produced, if the flat car has the right kind of fixing points. They are angry about bogies that have brake shoes fitted despite he protype has disc breakes (which means they only would have to cut off the brake shoes (which is done in the same time as writing in the forum)). They condemn the manufacturers for having printed the wrong date of the last repair onto a model. People ar not contet with what they get. Never.

 

My conclusion:

Modelling irish themes does by no means get easier if you change scale. Every problem you solve will bring other problems, especially concerning accessory and will split up the market which leads to even smaller numbers of produces models. We should stay to 1/76 scale, be it 16,5 or 21 mm or anything in between. As many manufactuers switch to smaller series, the availability of rtr irish models comes nearer in my eyes.

[Mayner]

Well said Arran. The issue of 21mm is of no use to manufacturers like yourself there is no money in the likes of your goodself catering for the 3-4 people on here that talk about it and one that actually has a layout of it. Its a very small market and when you factor in the fact that 99% of the people on this site model oo 4mm (16.5mm track) thats the way to go. You don't see the likes of PM, Bachmann etc etc producing anything for 21mm and quite frankly I don't see the point, most of the majority of us just want reasonably priced wagons of a good quality to run behind our 141/071/201s and starting to get into all this talk of will you do X Y Z just to please a few people is a waste of time and if manufacturers were to please them it would probably push the cost up for the rest of us. Looking forward to seeing the first photos of your first Irish wagon.

 

I dont think anyone has asked for 21mm gauge rtr models, but if someone is going to the trouble of designing or commissioning a wagon or coach its a small step to at least explore the option of specifying OO Gauge wheel sets on 28mm axles.

 

As Rich hinted the main issue with the skeletal flats and oil tankers is that its impossible to design a chassis that looks remotely right unless the solebars and axleguards are in the correct position.

 

MIR managed to produce whitemetal wagon kits that were easy to re-gauge 30 years ago, so there should be little problem in designing a model with the solebars, axleboxes and brake shoes in the right position, the set up costs for OO wheelsets with slightly longer axles should be minimal on a run of 1000 wagons.

 

Personally modelling Irish Broad Gauge using HO or EM gauge track creates more problems than it solves, as apart from having to scratchbuild everything the track is now a different scale to the models. For "modern image" its probably best to stick with 4mm its basically a matter of swapping out the wheelsets with MM diesels and replacing coach and wagon bogies, for steam outline the Tyrconnel & North Star kits are probably the way to go, its an easier scale to work in and Slaters supply suitable wheel sets and axles.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Mayner

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

I dont think anyone has asked for 21mm gauge rtr models, but if someone is going to the trouble of designing or commissioning a wagon or coach its a small step to at least explore the option of specifying OO Gauge wheel sets on 28mm axles.

 

As Rich hinted the main issue with the skeletal flats and oil tankers is that its impossible to design a chassis that looks remotely right unless the solebars and axleguards are in the correct position.

 

MIR managed to produce whitemetal wagon kits that were easy to re-gauge 30 years ago, so there should be little problem in designing a model with the solebars, axleboxes and brake shoes in the right position, the set up costs for OO wheelsets with slightly longer axles should be minimal on a run of 1000 wagons.

 

Personally modelling Irish Broad Gauge using HO or EM gauge track creates more problems than it solves, as apart from having to scratchbuild everything the track is now a different scale to the models. For "modern image" its probably best to stick with 4mm its basically a matter of swapping out the wheelsets with MM diesels and replacing coach and wagon bogies, for steam outline the Tyrconnel & North Star kits are probably the way to go, its an easier scale to work in and Slaters supply suitable wheel sets and axles.

 

 

 

John reading your reply above I see where you are coming from but and there is always a but if you look at the market there are very limited amount of people modeling 21mm compared to 16.5mm. Someone said in an earlier post that there is another site with a lot of 21mm modelers on it but the fact is the discussion is happening here and not somewhere else so I can only comment on the majority of members on this site which model 16.5mm.

At the minute on this site we have 381 members now out of that there is only yourself that I can recall (I may be wrong and stand to be corrected) who has posted up 21mm topics photos layout etc etc which are fantastic and I love to read and study your work as it does give me an insight into 21mm and there was someone else who was doing a thread on building 21mm track. Then there are others who do a lot of talking but thats all they do.

The point I am trying to put across is I don't see why if a manufacturers asks the question what would you guys like to run behind your MM locos I'm thinking of doing a run of something, that if accommodating 2 members it may push the cost up for the other 379 members (and remember I'm only talking about this site) it don't make good business sense to go down that road.

Leslie asked in his original thread what would we like, Arran as we know is already working on a wagon. Now if they can do something to accommodate both 16.5mm and 21mm and keep the cost down I'm all for it but if they can't well then it has to be majority rules and that is 16.5mm.

[David]

I've been following the thread with interest. It seems to me that price is a major concern for most, especially when you consider that you're going to be wanting in the region of 10 or more 4 wheel wagons to make a set.

Keeping the costs down all comes down to how quickly it can be made. With this in mind, especially in the case of RTR, you are almost certainly looking at using a modified UK chassis of some sort with a custom built body or top. Every process you can cut brings the price down and makes the project more and more viable. I understand that if may look easy on the outside to just widen the frames slightly to cater for 21mm but this might mean designing a new part or a scratch-built chassis instead of a donor. This means that the 99% have to pay more so that it is more convenient for the 1%.

I have to agree with Anthony on this one. We've been building models for the last couple of years and have had 1 enquiry about 21mm and zero orders.

The economics simply aren't possible to make a 100% perfect, 21mm ready, RTR wagon for less than 30-40 euro a wagon and about 20-30 for a kit. The absolute cheapest I could see a RTR wagon being is about 30 euro and 20 for a kit and that's using a UK chassis.

I'd also caution that more competition is not always a good thing in a tiny market as it can force quality down in pursuit of price reduction.

[RedRich]

If we look at what has been released by MM since the baby's were released, all the models can be converted to 21mm. The locos have the space between the bogies. The coaches as with any bogie can have the side frames removed and one of the compensation or CCU kit's can be used with the original side frames. In this way the coaches can retain the correct dimensions body wise. With rigid axle type wagons you will need 28mm axles. In some cases you can use an inside bearing axle on one end with no pin points, but you will need another rigid axle at the other end which needs to be 28mm. The questions that were asked concerning the prorposed wagons is would they be produced in such a way to allow conversion to 21mm. I think it was a fair question to submit and if it turns out that the proposed models aren't designed with 21mm conversion built in then fine it's not a problem.

 

I know the voices of the many will always be heard over the voices of the few and commercially that is the right way for any manufacturer to go. I sincerely wish all the lads who are designing new models the very best of luck with their venture, and huge respect to them for taking the plunge. I will say that if the lad's can produce the chassis with the correct brake gear, w irons, j hangers at a reasonable price then do it it will make a huge difference to the look of the model. I'm sure after sales market details like lamp irons and builders plates etc can be produced to give the model an extra bit of class.

 

Rich,

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

I also have to agree with Anthony, just not enough people doing 21mm to justify ANY extra cost to an already expensive model

[217 RIVER FLESK]

Up to now I've contributed nothing to this discusion, prefering to sit back & let others have their say. My own personal preferance would to be to go down the road of a good quaulity rtr model - that is to say to the same standard of MM's locos & Cravens coaches. I've nothing against kits, but if one does want a rake of x,y or z, then I feel that life is too short to spend it building kit after kit if there is no need to. Having said that, given the choice of a poor rtr offering or a good kit, I'd go for the kit every time, assuming my skills were up to the job.

 

On the gauge issue, I'd much prefer to see stock built so that it can easily be converted to 21mm & I don't buy the fact that the cost will go through the roof if it is. If MM can manage to build his locos in such a way as to allow easy convertion, than I can't see why it can't be achieved with rigid & bogied stock also. At least with bogied stock if OO bogies are used, they can easily be changed but it does mean that the vehicle body is to the correct width. If OO scale rigid vehicles are manufactured, where is the width compromise going to occur & will it look 'funny' when the wagon is coupled next to a loco?

 

Yes, it would be nice if rigid wagons could be provided with 21mm axles, with the wheels slid on to allow running straight out of the box on OO track & I can well believe that any far eastern manufacturer would come up with reasons as to why their production lines couldn't easly produce / accommodate the longer axles, but how about comming at this issue from another angle. Produce the wagon chassis to the correct width but on the inside of the axle boxes have a boss incorporated in to the moldings so as to allow the us of standard OO length axles? Surely an option such as this wouldn't increase costs, but with a few minutes use of a scalpull, each wagon could easily be well on the way to convertion to 21mm. I'm sure some will say that it will look funny running a wide vehicle on 'narrow' gauge track, but everyone seems to accept it with MM's rtr locos.

 

I fully understand in these tight financial times that people are fully aware of cost, one only has to look on the internet to see how even some of the recent 071s are still hanging around, compared to say a few years back when the 141s hit the shelves, but does everyone have to have rakes & rakes of every type of wagon / coach / loco from the word go? What happened to building a collection / layout up over a number of years?

 

Anyway, for what they are worth, there are my thoughts on the subject

[WRENNEIRE]

My tuppence worth:

To buy track in a shop we are limited to HO track, its not OO and that's it!

So the stock we buy should be able to run on this track

Now if people want to build 21mm track I don't think its much of an ask to get them to convert the stock?

We have a 21 mm layout in the club, "Loughrea" Smashin layout and fantastic modelling in every way BUT

Only one man has any 21 mm stock to run on it

That says it all for me

[BabyGM]

I agree with Anthony and Wrenneire, there are simply not enough 21mm modellers to make a model that is more expensive for the reason it can be converted to 21mm.

While I completely respect and admire the work the 21mm modellers do on here I think that paying extra for a model because it can cater for there needs is not worth it

[RedRich]

The first thing any manufacturer will do to get a project rolling is to acquire drawings, photograph a prototype extensively, and measure it. The measuring of a prototype and comparing the results to drawings is hugely important to get it correct. If a manufacturer decides to build the model to the correct measurements and dimensions surely this can't be a bad thing. You can still fit the wheels on 28mm axles to the correct distance for 16.5mm track be it Peco or any other manufacturer, all your locos are built to the correct dimensions and still run on 16.5mm track. It does not cost any more to produce a 28mm pin point axle as it does for a 26mm pin point axle. That way there is no extra cost.

 

Dapol are looking into producing P4 wheelsets and it can be done in the manufacturing facility where they have their products produced in China. Saying that building a chassis to a narrower width is more economical isn't a fact. If manufacturers build a chassis narrower by 2mm to accept the standard 26mm axles then the bodies of any wagons will have to be narrower also or it will look ridiculous. If they do decide to build a narrower body also then they will have invented a new scale as it can't be 1/76 scale which is what MM locos are. The locos are sold with 00 wheelsets but the over all structure dimensions and distance between bogie side frames are correct in order for them to be converted. People seem to have a mindset that you can't fit a rigid axle wheelset with wheels at 16.5 on 28mm axles but you can. If your locos and coaches run on 00 gauge track even though they are modelled to the correct loading gauge then a wagon will. The weight of a MM loco running on what could be said to be narrow gauge track doesn't prevent it from running flawlessly. Therefore a wagon with 28mm axles will also.

 

Rich,

[Glenderg]

It's not about 21 vs 16.5 gauge.

 

Every rail model that is Irish, be it southern or northern, should be 21mm - full stop.

 

Think about it. It should be a scale model.

 

It shouldn't be compressed or butchered to suit a track gauge. The prototype should, and must be modelled to a scale of 1:76.2 - no bull. But there are things that irk me more than that. I've seen a lot of really expensive crap models come out since the demise of MIR, people charging excessive amounts for poorly researched, badly executed models to fill the gap left behind. Frankly I'm sick of it. IFM and MISR products are not up to scratch and nobody here seems to have the balls to say it. It's shocking money for sloppy products in my opinion.

Give us "bang on" wagons and we'll buy them in spades. Give us really crap versions and we'll happily stay silent.

 

Willing to be banned for this.

 

Richie.

[RedRich]

It's not about 21 vs 16.5 gauge.

 

Every rail model that is Irish, be it southern or northern, should be 21mm - full stop.

 

Think about it. It should be a scale model.

 

It shouldn't be compressed or butchered to suit a track gauge. The prototype should, and must be modelled to a scale of 1:76.2 - no bull. But there are things that irk me more than that. I've seen a lot of really expensive crap models come out since the demise of MIR, people charging excessive amounts for poorly researched, badly executed models to fill the gap left behind. Frankly I'm sick of it. IFM and MISR products are not up to scratch and nobody here seems to have the balls to say it. It's shocking money for sloppy products in my opinion.

Give us "bang on" wagons and we'll buy them in spades. Give us really crap versions and we'll happily stay silent.

 

Willing to be banned for this.

 

Richie.

 

You shouldn't be Richie for speaking your mind and being honest.

 

Rich,

[WRENNEIRE]

Kind of agree Richie

Bough a couple of weedsprays some time back

When I opened the box I was not a happy camper

Put them straight back in and decided to send them back, but for one reason or another I didnt get around to it

Only found them again recently and I have spent hours trying to sort them out but to no avail

Paid a fortune for them and they are just not up to scratch

Might actually send them over to you to see if you could salvage them for me?

Manufacturer has been dropped from my Christmas Card list

[Mayner]

Rich has basically said what I was going to say if someone is going to the trouble of comissioning a rtr chassis the cost of tooling up and producing a chassis of the right width will not to affect the cost.

 

A narrow OO width chassis will look crap too narrow for OO Gauge container or wagon body.

 

The problem of fitting OO gauge wheelsets can be got round by using a longer axle or forming a boss on the back of the axle guard, like the old MIR wagons

 

I think an injection moulded or die cast bogie flat on injection moulded bogies would be a better option for a rtr model than a 4 wheeler. The main problem with the 4 wheelers is an injection or resin model would be too light and a die cast chassis more expensive and complex to manufacture.

[StevieB]

Is the review in New Irish Lines wrong in being complimentary towards the new range of MISR models? I have no direct experience yet of either the IFM or MISR ranges, so have any of the detractors taken up their grievances with either of these manufacturers, or are they just using this site to winge 'cos they can't get finescale models at pocket money prices? Try it yourself and see how you get on.

Stephen

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

It's not about 21 vs 16.5 gauge.

 

Every rail model that is Irish, be it southern or northern, should be 21mm - full stop.

 

Think about it. It should be a scale model.

 

It shouldn't be compressed or butchered to suit a track gauge. The prototype should, and must be modelled to a scale of 1:76.2 - no bull. But there are things that irk me more than that. I've seen a lot of really expensive crap models come out since the demise of MIR, people charging excessive amounts for poorly researched, badly executed models to fill the gap left behind. Frankly I'm sick of it. IFM and MISR products are not up to scratch and nobody here seems to have the balls to say it. It's shocking money for sloppy products in my opinion.

Give us "bang on" wagons and we'll buy them in spades. Give us really crap versions and we'll happily stay silent.

 

Willing to be banned for this.

 

Richie.

 

 

 

Be careful Richie the last time I raised issues about a substandard Irish model made by an Irish company the sky nearly fell in. It even caused one individual to go on a one man cause ringing and PMing people to have me removed from the site. Very funny reading the above posts how its one rule for one and another rule for another you must be special.