Navan Branchline

[Celtic_transport]

Hello everyone, just pondering the current status of the GNR branch from navan to drogheda. No zinc trains will be running for the next two years with the redevelopments at dublin port, and with the proposed new rail station linking to M3 parkway coming sometime in the next 5-10 years, i wonder what the future of the branch is. Personally think with a bit of tlc it could be a lovely branch for excursion/heritage trains. Whats your thoughts?

Edited Friday at 22:17 by Celtic_transport

[Branchline121]

It could work. A main line connection would be handy for a heritage railway and the planned platform on the Navan branch at Drogheda would be useful. It also isn't too far from Dublin, where almost ⅓ of the country resides.

The old shed at Navan could be used as an engineering shed, and there's plenty of space to store stock at the station. Using an intact line for preservation has been done before successfully between Dieren and Apeldoorn in the Netherlands, so it could theoretically work.

I'm not sure how the intermediate stops at Beauparc and Duleek would work. Both are now private residences, but the platforms are there. Political willpower would be most important I think.

[jhb171achill]

They won't allow heritage trains over it, as it's not passed for passenger use. In reality, the best option is for the former MGWR line to be extended north from M3 Parkway with services going into Docklands - there's scarely any more capacity at Connolly, which is where they'd go to from Drogheda. A "wee birdy" who ought to have the right info has told me the mine trains will not be back. Of course, even if that is 100% the current plan, that could change (and hopefully will).

[Louth]

There is an opinion piece in this week's Meath Chronicle advocating for the reopening of the line to passenger traffic. Instead of trains running from Drogheda to Dublin, a few could start in Navan, first stop Drogheda then as normal on to Dublin. Same in the opposite direction in the evening. It would require certifying the line for passenger service, a longer platform in Navan and a new platform in Drogheda (already planned). This would be possible without putting further pressure on the Northern line in to Connolly as no new trains would be required. It would not be instead of the much needed new line to Navan, but would provide an interim service and in time would become an established east-west service . Like everything, it would require political will.

[jhb171achill]

Exactly; and this is what as always seems to be lacking.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Certainly on paper it would make sense, especially if one day, mainline heritage operation is barred leaving a bit of a vacum for such a thing to become politically feasible. As far as I know the line has very few level crossings. The connection of 2 large towns, both with a rail connection on either end (this assumes that’s the M3 route is built at the time is proposal would be considered) would make that Dublin and indeed northern access easier. 
 

But you’re talking about a huge project which required a pile of money to make a facility at navan for something like this to work. Essentially a Mullingar 2.0 but better 

 

course this is only thoughts to occupy ones mind. I’ve done basically 0 volounteer work, so others on here will be able to give a better analysis of the potential of the line. 

[Sean]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

They won't allow heritage trains over it, as it's not passed for passenger use. In reality, the best option is for the former MGWR line to be extended north from M3 Parkway with services going into Docklands - there's scarely any more capacity at Connolly, which is where they'd go to from Drogheda. A "wee birdy" who ought to have the right info has told me the mine trains will not be back. Of course, even if that is 100% the current plan, that could change (and hopefully will).

Although it would probabaly never happen,In an ideal world, what would it actually take to clear the line for such use?

[LNERW1]

I've mulled over this before as it happens, in an ideal world it'd be nice to have heritage trains running from Drogheda to Kingscourt via Navan, where they'd meet with DART+ trains, as the KIngscourt line was only closed in the 90s its almost entirely intact, and it could even have commuter-oriented services operated by heritage stock. Now of course there's a snowball's chance in hell it'd ever happen anything like that but just imagine! A good long run and easy connections at one end and at the midpoint to frequent main line services. It would be a world class heritage line and again will never happen. There is in fairness a chance of some heritage services on the line some day but we can only have great things, not FXXXIN BRILLIANT!!!!

[jhb171achill]

39 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

I've mulled over this before as it happens, in an ideal world it'd be nice to have heritage trains running from Drogheda to Kingscourt via Navan, where they'd meet with DART+ trains, as the KIngscourt line was only closed in the 90s its almost entirely intact, and it could even have commuter-oriented services operated by heritage stock. Now of course there's a snowball's chance in hell it'd ever happen anything like that but just imagine! A good long run and easy connections at one end and at the midpoint to frequent main line services. It would be a world class heritage line and again will never happen. There is in fairness a chance of some heritage services on the line some day but we can only have great things, not FXXXIN BRILLIANT!!!!

It would. The idea of 131 or 171 - or even the tank engine in Cultra - or a non-GNR J15 trundling over that viaduct with wooden coaches a la Downpatrick is enough to make one drool.

But, unfortunately, the economics and practicalities of operating a heritage railway on this island are an exceptionally steep hill to climb; add to that the lack of cultural interest, thus few volunteers and fewer donations. I think Downpatrick will remain the only preserved 5'3" railway on this island. As one of those involved in a very extensive survey of all of the island some fifteen years ago, with a view to identifying a site with a market, we looked at some 18 sites. Something like 12 were eliminated point blank at first hurdle, and Navan to Kingscourt was one of them. Navan to Drogheda would be little better. No need to go into all of it here, but these are ones NEAR a big population centre, as is the DCDR - those out in the sticks haven't a hope of long-term survival.  

[flange lubricator]

54 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

I've mulled over this before as it happens, in an ideal world it'd be nice to have heritage trains running from Drogheda to Kingscourt via Navan, where they'd meet with DART+ trains, as the KIngscourt line was only closed in the 90s its almost entirely intact, and it could even have commuter-oriented services operated by heritage stock. Now of course there's a snowball's chance in hell it'd ever happen anything like that but just imagine! A good long run and easy connections at one end and at the midpoint to frequent main line services. It would be a world class heritage line and again will never happen. There is in fairness a chance of some heritage services on the line some day but we can only have great things, not FXXXIN BRILLIANT!!!!

Sounds great but in practice not workable, between Drogheda and Navan there is one set of gates at Beauparc , but between Navan and Kingscourt there was fourteen or fifteen sets of gates which in the days of the Gypsum were operated by the train crew  so add to that the slow line speed and lots of starting and stopping would be anything but a pleasurable experience for the passengers and would take most of the day to do a return trip . 

[Darrman]

I'd love to go on the Navan Branch once in my life.

It's not going to happen. With no Taras, there's no traffic. I'm not going to hold my breath for Drogheda-Navan shuttles. Even if we found the magic money tree and made it a heritage line, there's not many heritage lines seventeen miles long (the distance between Drogheda and Navan). A line two miles or so out of Navan would probably be a small bit more practical, but I'm not one particularly optimistic.

Tangentially relevant, are there any other (as good as) disused lines a heritage group could hypothetically (pretend there's community buy-in and millions of euro) take over left? Did they do anything to the Mungret branch during the Foynes rebuild? Pretty much everything else I can think of has been greenway'd or should be reinstated for mainline service first.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Darrman said:

I'd love to go on the Navan Branch once in my life.

It's not going to happen. With no Taras, there's no traffic. I'm not going to hold my breath for Drogheda-Navan shuttles. Even if we found the magic money tree and made it a heritage line, there's not many heritage lines seventeen miles long (the distance between Drogheda and Navan). A line two miles or so out of Navan would probably be a small bit more practical, but I'm not one particularly optimistic.

Tangentially relevant, are there any other (as good as) disused lines a heritage group could hypothetically (pretend there's community buy-in and millions of euro) take over left? Did they do anything to the Mungret branch during the Foynes rebuild? Pretty much everything else I can think of has been greenway'd or should be reinstated for mainline service first.

No. This has actually been extensively investigated. For anything like that to succeed sustainably in Ireland, a combination of available manpower - long term - and money; potential nearby market and so on, and suitable stuff to operate on it, with key competencies held by a sufficient number of people - is a very big ask indeed.

While one can never say never, and HYPOTHETICALLY every single closed line in the country could be reopened as a tourist line, the actual reality is that there's not a snowball's chance in hell. This isn't England 9where they have ten times the population, and a much greater culture of appreciation of industrial heritage). We are just not a big enough country, or an interested enough country. And that, sadly, is the reality.

[Blaine]

17 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

I've mulled over this before as it happens, in an ideal world it'd be nice to have heritage trains running from Drogheda to Kingscourt via Navan, where they'd meet with DART+ trains, as the KIngscourt line was only closed in the 90s its almost entirely intact

You mean the line from Tara Junction to Kingscourt thats been entirely lifted and turned into a greenway?

[skinner75]

16 minutes ago, Blaine said:

You mean the line from Tara Junction to Kingscourt thats been entirely lifted and turned into a greenway?

https://www.discoverboynevalley.ie/plan-your-visit/things-to-do/boyne-valley-lakelands-greenway

Even if the greenway hadn't replaced the track/trackbed, the rails would've all needed to be lifted & replaced, plus ballast replacement. Athlone-Mullingar would be the same

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

https://www.discoverboynevalley.ie/plan-your-visit/things-to-do/boyne-valley-lakelands-greenway

Even if the greenway hadn't replaced the track/trackbed, the rails would've all needed to be lifted & replaced, plus ballast replacement. Athlone-Mullingar would be the same

Indeed. The rails, sleepers, ballast and subgrade/drainage would have been far from perfect towards the end of the line's operational life, and after decades of rot, corrosion and vegetation growth it would have all needed to be dug out and started afresh. That's a big and expensive job. 

The availability of second-hand materials cascaded from renewals on the main-line railway isn't as good as it was, owing to modern track-lifting practices tending to cut rails up on site. Modern track is also much heavier and less suited to manual methods of relaying.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Just now, Mol_PMB said:

Indeed. The rails, sleepers, ballast and subgrade/drainage would have been far from perfect towards the end of the line's operational life, and after decades of rot, corrosion and vegetation growth it would have all needed to be dug out and started afresh. That's a big and expensive job. 

The availability of second-hand materials cascaded from renewals on the main-line railway isn't as good as it was, owing to modern track-lifting practices tending to cut rails up on site. Modern track is also much heavier and less suited to manual methods of relaying.

 

Indeed, but the opposite can be said for the navan line which otherwise looks pristine at the moment. Yes years will eventually out pay to this line if it isint maintained. But it’s not like a south Wexford of a WRC. The track is there and it’s good and it’s unlikely to be used in the future 

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Yes, that does look fairly good, I suppose the regular heavy freight traffic has ensured that it has been kept in fair condition. Hopefully the weedspray will continue to run.

[Westcorkrailway]

16 hours ago, Darrman said:

.Tangentially relevant, are there any other (as good as) disused lines a heritage group could hypothetically (pretend there's community buy-in and millions of euro) take over left? Did they do anything to the Mungret branch during the Foynes rebuild?

Actually yes, I think the dual truck is set up as far as the junction for mungret (not layed but the alignment is made for it and level crossings made double track) 

M new LC signs have been put up, which gives me small hope that there actually thinking about doing the spur, although as you can see, it hasn’t been cleaned up in a decade

[skinner75]

On Kingscourt, I used to go out with a girl from there around 15 years back, and remember visiting the old station building while the tracks were still in place. 

I found some old square freight shipping slips in the old office, which I have somewhere up the attic

[Galteemore]

14 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

On Kingscourt, I used to go out with a girl from there around 15 years back, and remember visiting the old station building while the tracks were still in place. 

I found some old square freight shipping slips in the old office, which I have somewhere up the attic

When we lived in Dublin c99-02, and drove north to see family, was amazing how often the direct route seemed to be through Kingscourt…..

[jhb171achill]

17 hours ago, Darrman said:

Tangentially relevant, are there any other (as good as) disused lines a heritage group could hypothetically (pretend there's community buy-in and millions of euro) take over left? Did they do anything to the Mungret branch during the Foynes rebuild? Pretty much everything else I can think of has been greenway'd or should be reinstated for mainline service first.

You're looking at the following criteria, apart from manpower and funding.

1. Proximity to greater Belfast or Dublin areas, or Cork at an absolute stretch. With Downpatrick in the former category, we're now just looking at Dublin. So counties Dublin, Meath or Wicklow; maybe Kildare.

2. Good road / parking access and proximity to main roads. Access needs also to allow a low loader to bring rolling stock in. No use if it's down some country boreen.

3. Planning permission for staff and public car parking, maintenance sheds / covered accommodation for stock. As Whitehead and Downpatrick will attest, it's a fool's game to leave rolling stock outdoors in all weathers.

4. Sufficient length of line to give the public something like a journey; half a mile is useless, 10 miles is too long to be economically viable in this country, DCDR's 2.5 miles is about right from the point of view of fuel economy when operating; and ease of maintenance. Double it to 5 miles, you double the coal or diesel used, but you won't get away (in this country, anyway) with doubling the fare.

5. Somewhere to go to. A train ride from a small unremarkable rural halt to a buffer stop in a field is useless, as far as sustainability is concerned. It has to GO somewhere. Downpatrick has Inch Abbey. One scheme considered in the past, Trim to Athboy, had a heritage town near a motorway connecting with another in which there is a fmous castle. That sort of thing.

As enthusiasts, we're all good at the "ideas"; the "what-ifs"; and what WE think would be interesting. But "normal" people - who pay the bills (enthusiasts won't) do not think the way we do. Cold hard reality must always take precedence over "it would be nice to preserve XYZ". As a diehard, hardcore, proper nerd-level enthusiast myself, but who spent 25+ years dealing with day-to-day management practicalities of both the RPSI and DCDR, I have seen chapter and verse, plus the full boxed set, on all of this!

Edited 3 hours ago by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

What ‘normal’ people also want are clean toilets, suitable refreshments, and staff who look as if they appreciate them being there. Enthusiasts may disdain Thomas days, ‘dinosaur days’ etc but these things fill the coffers. The vast majority of punters won’t care if the train consists of shopping trolleys pulled by a pink elephant as long as those other bits are sorted. 

 

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

What ‘normal’ people also want are clean toilets, suitable refreshments, and staff who look as if they appreciate them being there. Enthusiasts may disdain Thomas days, ‘dinosaur days’ etc but these things fill the coffers. The vast majority of punters won’t care if the train consists of shopping trolleys pulled by a pink elephant as long as those other bits are sorted. 

 

Needs to be the correct shade of pink, though.