New RTR model ideas / thoughts

[jhb171achill]

Just looking at the amazing variety of Irish RTR stuff available in recent years, and the tremendous work done by Murphy Models, SSM and others. We can recreate a typical scene just about anywhere on this island from the 1960s onwards, and quite a lot prior to that.

 

I wonder - just throwing it out there - would there be, in the longer term, a commercial market for some RTR stuff in the late steam era?

 

This is getting more popular, judging by posts on IRM.

 

To be commercially viable, it would obviously have to be something very common in the day. If I might suggest priorities based on that, and on wide route availability, there seem to me some obvious contenders:

 

Locos: J15, 400 class, to join the successful Woolwich. UTA Jeep, GNR "S" class, Bandon tank?

 

Railcars: Without doubt, an AEC set in UTA, GNR and CIE liveries. Maybe a BUT? If a DART model is viable, maybe, just maybe a GNR artic set as used on the Warrenpoint and Howth lines? And an MPD car.

 

Coaches: The pre-black and tan scene is crying out for a proper model of a GSWR wooden bogie and a Midland 6 wheeler! And a 6 wheel brake of either provenance. A GNR K15 - brown, blue and cream, UTA green, CIE green, NIR maroon and grey as railcar intermediate, and black'n'tan would all be appropriate for this. A standard NCC third of one of the types at Whitehead?

 

Wagons: Surely, a "H" van! A CIE brake van or earlier GSWR one, well travelled at the time?

 

Just a few thoughts. Time to get the mulled wine going....

Edited December 23, 2013 by jhb171achill

[Horsetan]

I think only the J15 and NCC "WT" have any prospect as RTR, and even then they would need to allow conversion to 21mm. Most of the other Irish steam classes were mostly small in number, reflecting in part the lack of money of the railways that had them built. I derive my fun from building kits, and having a J15 in RTR means one less sale for SSM.....

[Dunluce Castle]

I agree

A RTR LMS NCC WT Class Jeep needs to be done, the last steam locos in operation in the UK.

Would look fantastic hauling NCC wagons/carriages, UTA wagons/carriages or even 20 spoil wagons.

Liverys could be, NCC, UTA (and experimental green) and NIR livery.

But we will just have to wait and see.

[Garfield]

Can't see any RTR steam locos being turned out any time in the near future, I'm afraid.

 

As Horsetan pointed out, a J15 just might shade it because there were so many of them and because they had a long innings, plus two have survived and have run in the diesel era on specials. The WT would be a riskier investment as, though they lasted in service into the early '70s, and No 4 is still knocking around, they were a small class and, judging from modellers I know and what I've seen at exhibitions, the Northern Irish steam era is a minority within a minority within a minority among modellers here.

 

An AEC railcar set could possibly have some mileage, as they carried a wide range of liveries (Two variants of CIÉ green, black and tan, GNR and UTA), turned up in all corners of the island, and ran from the 1950s through to the early '80s either as powered or hauled (push-pull) stock.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Garfield

[UP6936]

I would also agree that the j15 and jeep would be the most viable. Also, any other loco types being done should really be classes with examples in preservation, because then you can market them to people modelling the steam era, and diesel people who want an RPSI type train on their layout, hence more sales.

[jhb171achill]

I should add that I would never want to divert sales from SSM or the like! :-)

[heirflick]

oh the thought of rtr steamers! 1- no 4, 2- 186, 3- Merlin, 4- Slieve Gullion, then the three 800's.....well, you cant stop a lad from dreaming!

[Horsetan]

oh the thought of rtr steamers! 1- no 4, 2- 186, 3- Merlin, 4- Slieve Gullion, then the three 800's.....well, you cant stop a lad from dreaming!

 

All except no.4 available as SSM kits. And even no.4 may yet emerge as a full-ish kit from Worsley Works......

[Killucan2]

Steam no go,could be in the long run rtr 121 and A.

[aclass007]

Steam no go,could be in the long run rtr 121 and A.

 

Yes.... A Murphy Models A!

[leslie10646]

Can't see any RTR steam locos being turned out any time in the near future, I'm afraid.

 

As Horsetan pointed out, a J15 just might shade it because there were so many of them and because they had a long innings, plus two have survived and have run in the diesel era on specials. The WT would be a riskier investment as, though they lasted in service into the early '70s, and No 4 is still knocking around, they were a small class and, judging from modellers I know and what I've seen at exhibitions, the Northern Irish steam era is a minority within a minority within a minority among modellers here.

 

I generally agree with this comment, except that the J15s existed in a multitude of forms and with different tenders. So which one would you do? - you wouldn't please all the people!

 

The Class WT in theory was a standard machine, but also had its variations among the eighteen engines, but they are ones easily added by a modeller, if he wants to be fussy! From a manufacturer's point of view, a reasonable compromise loco could be produced by taking the Fowler and plonking a new body on it. In effect, that is how one noted modeller has turned out about ten of the machines for some of we lucky people - even if we are a minority within a minority etc etc! If we had a Kernow in Ireland, I think we'd have had a WT years ago! You can't expect Paddy to do it, as he's got the world and his aunt banging on his door demanding a 121 Class!

 

Happy Christmas, everyone. And so to bed, perchance to dream of the Class VS - for those of you too young to have seen these fabled beasts - a big blue 4-4-0 with SMOKE DEFLECTORS - actually built AFTER I was born!!!!!

[Horsetan]

Meanwhile, one "S" class continues to take shape......

[Mayner]

An 800 or GNR Vs or possibly a Compound would probably sell better than the other less glamorous classes ;-). A collector would fee obliged to buy all 3 800 or 5 Vs but would probably be satisfied with one J15 or WT.

[Garfield]

I generally agree with this comment, except that the J15s existed in a multitude of forms and with different tenders. So which one would you do? - you wouldn't please all the people!

 

That's a simple one, Leslie... saturated boiler with outside-sprung tender, identical to 184, as locos survived in that condition right up until the end of steam. And even further beyond in 184's case.

 

The Class WT in theory was a standard machine, but also had its variations among the eighteen engines, but they are ones easily added by a modeller, if he wants to be fussy! From a manufacturer's point of view, a reasonable compromise loco could be produced by taking the Fowler and plonking a new body on it. In effect, that is how one noted modeller has turned out about ten of the machines for some of we lucky people - even if we are a minority within a minority etc etc! If we had a Kernow in Ireland, I think we'd have had a WT years ago! You can't expect Paddy to do it, as he's got the world and his aunt banging on his door demanding a 121 Class!

 

In fairness, apart from retro-fitted superheated boilers and larger tenders, J15s fall into this 'easy to swap details' category, too. But anyway, this is all hypothetical since we're not gonna see an accurate RTR Irish kettle for the foreseeable future.

 

Happy Christmas, everyone. And so to bed, perchance to dream of the Class VS - for those of you too young to have seen these fabled beasts - a big blue 4-4-0 with SMOKE DEFLECTORS - actually built AFTER I was born!!!!!

 

And a Happy Christmas to you too

[Riversuir226]

Ideally a J15 would be good, then again I wouldn't say no to a Bandon tank or a J26. The Aec railcars, yes please as for an A class now your talking!!!!!

[BosKonay]

I agree with John, a series of 800's would be something modellers and collectors alike would drool over!

[Weshty]

I'm loving the general consensus from JB's original post, they all make my mouth water

 

B4, J15, AEC Railcars, 800, S, A-Class, and a 50's laminate coach.

 

 

Mmmmmm.

[Horsetan]

I'm loving the general consensus from JB's original post, they all make my mouth water

 

B4, J15, AEC Railcars, 800, S, A-Class, and a 50's laminate coach.

 

 

Mmmmmm.

 

As long as they don't take away sales from SSM

[Weshty]

RTR vs. kits.

 

Horses for courses

[WRENNEIRE]

Personally I don't think RTR is an option for most of the models mentioned

As can be seen from the new 201's, there are still a lot of them out there

RTR is all about making money for the producer, because of the numbers involved to actually produce a new model no one is going to enter the market

unless they are relatively certain of recouping their initial investment and then making a profit that will make the whole gamble worth taking.

At the moment it does not appear that that gamble is worth taking, money is short and there are a lot of things needed before it can be spent on model railways.

In an ideal world the 121's would now be in pre production mode with PM probably having his first couple of PP models to check out etc but as we all know that has not happened and its all down to money, he cannot move forward until enough 201's/ 071's and Mk 2 coaches have been sold to allow him invest in the 121's.

So what I think is the way forward is for small manufacturers like SSM, DK Models John Mayne Silver Fox, DC Kits Glenderg etc to get together, discuss what the market is looking for and then put their collective heads together and see who can do what and then through pre ordering here on the site, see if the model is viable and then give it a lash.

As I said this is my take on the RTR debate, any thoughts?

[Glenderg]

its kind of an odd thread, because the only man with stones and skill to do rtr is PM, and as dave says, he's not going to do a 121 anytime soon. So it comes down to the production of finished rtr models based on kits. the right idea is that a grouping produce, then announce, and one assumes the stock empties, provided the cost to the user is acceptable. 40 - 45 eu would seem acceptable to me for detailed, finished and decaled and weathered wagons, but theres only about 6 eu profit, and it takes time. So do you do short runs of say 20 wagons, and make it on a first come first serve basis? Or open it up and do it on a pre order basis?

 

To put my cards on the table, i have produced made to order ballast ploughs, 10 ton GSWR, 12 ton GSWR, 20 ton MGWR, and 20 ton CIE goods brake vans in the last 6 months, partnering of sorts with SSM for decals. Drawings are returned to SSM if he wants to do brass kits later. I intend to keep at this in the new year, though on a more public basis.

 

There are other things that i've partnered with several to investigate high end rapid prototyping for the purpose of creating masters for bogie sideframes, metrovick cabs, 22k cabs and coach ends, and the mk4 dvt,and the push pull mk3's. These have been produced in 3d, by myself, and rivet counted by some members here. More on this at the end of january.

 

There are other things coming, mostly pw oddities, for meself and HF, but i'll give notice here. I dont think anything i'm working on is in conflict with anyone else here, hence the honesty. Am I? R.

[Horsetan]

...As Horsetan pointed out, a J15 just might shade it because there were so many of them and because they had a long innings....

 

I generally agree with this comment, except that the J15s existed in a multitude of forms and with different tenders. So which one would you do? - you wouldn't please all the people!!!

 

Tooling technology means you can create one main tool for the footplate, splashers and cab. Separate tools could then cover the two main smokebox / boiler / firebox types: you just clip in / screw in the one you want onto the footplate assembly. The loco chassis is the same, anyway.

 

The only real complication is the tender: I'd agree you would need dedicated tooling for each tender type, and that's where the real expense is.

[RedRich]

Richie that sounds exciting, I say that because I know how much you research things, and how much prototype to model accuracy you strive for. I am particularly intrigued by the ballast ploughs and MK111 push pull parts. Now if a correct chassis for the ploughs (was also adaptable for 21mm) could be produced it could open up a viable niche in the market. Utilising it for other wagons that have a 20 foot chassis would open up a big playing field. Roll on next year.

 

Rich,

[aclass007]

 

There are other things that i've partnered with several to investigate high end rapid prototyping for the purpose of creating masters for bogie sideframes, metrovick cabs, 22k cabs and coach ends, and the mk4 dvt,and the push pull mk3's. These have been produced in 3d, by myself, and rivet counted by some members here. More on this at the end of january.

 

 

This sounds very interesting! Looking forward to seeing more of this!

[jhb171achill]

This has opened an excellently well seasoned can of worms!

[Horsetan]

This has opened an excellently well seasoned can of worms!

 

Goes well with Guinness.

[Scots Mac]

Hi Guys ,well as newcomer to the Irish scene ,heres my tuppenceworth for what its worth.Personally although I've always been a steam man first and foremost it was my trip to Ireland a few weeks ago that got me hooked on the Irish diesels and my visit to Ballina yard in Mayo.

So I thought ,right,a modern Irish layout would be something different. Then I started to look at what preserved steam was out there , soon got to see the usual suspects,Jeep 4, the J15 etc., THEN I got pulled towards the 50s and 60s steam scene,and well you know from my posts what I'm into now. Compared to the UK the Irish market is tiny so the home Irish market I don't suppose will ever be able to support many RTR models. Its great to be able to buy the Murphys model's diesels and so far I have bought 6 ,new and 2nd hand. I would also like to have supported SSM locos and its great that they produce what they do and may I add they appear to be excellent value. Had I been used to building brass kits I'd gladly have bought 3 of the SSM 800 class 4-6-0 ,the J15,etc., BUT unfortunately I have no experience in building brass kits so thats why I've chosen to kitbash UK types. I may buy a few RTR rolling items from SSM and some of the other Irish manufacturers in future ,but the reality for me is my main interest is locomotives . Calling a spade a spade from a financial point of view,I'd rather spend my money on cheaper 2nd hand Hornby,Lima,Bachmann UK types that are close to Irish types for my rolling stock needs and kitbash them ,which leaves me more money to concentrate on locos . So really as it stands I'd mainly buy only Murphy Models diesels from the home Irish market. On the other hand if , for example SSM or whoever produced RTR Irish steam types I would gladly support the home Irish market. Generally speaking though it strikes me that the best the Irish scene can hope for is to stimulate as much interest as possible across the water in England/Scotland etc.,..... if Irish modellers can stir up interest over here and get the interest level up in the irish scene in the UK then theres probably more chance of RTR becoming more viable as the interest expands among UK modellers. In past years I'd glance at the Irish scene but it was never really regarded as a scene that had very much going for it in terms of available models. Pat Murphy has done wonders to change that. However especially in the current economic climate I think the best way to advance the market is to stimulate more interest in the irish scene generally. Thats why I have encouraged Steve at Railtec and 247 Developments to produce irish decals and nameplates etc.,etc., here in the UK,...NOT to undermine Irish manufacturers like SSM at all but to make the whole scene more available and easier to access by UK modellers. British railway modellers have always been quite cosmopolitan in their interests ,over the years I've watched phases of interest in Japan ,germany ,USA,France ,Italy ,Switzerland ,Spain,etc.,etc., the reason I think Ireland gets a bit left to the side is that most/many guys in the UK just don't know much about it.... but I'm sure more and more would/will become interested thru the likes of this forum and the word spreading ....... Anyway guys I hope it all goes from strength to strength, and I do hope PM produces that single cab diesel because its a must have item eh ? Cheers DAVY

[Horsetan]

..... I would also like to have supported SSM locos and its great that they produce what they do and may I add they appear to be excellent value. Had I been used to building brass kits I'd gladly have bought 3 of the SSM 800 class 4-6-0 ,the J15,etc., BUT unfortunately I have no experience in building brass kits .....

 

I think you should start somewhere. After all, I had to.

[jhb171achill]

I got one of the 800 brass kits. My own skills would never begin to. Do justice to such a superb kit - have you seen it? It's truly amazing. What I am doing is getting it professionally made up. Des has a contact for anyone interested. Once I have that, all pristine and shiny, I'll need a truly filthy grey J15 to go alongside it; another SSM kit!

[Horsetan]

I got one of the 800 brass kits. My own skills would never begin to. Do justice to such a superb kit - have you seen it? It's truly amazing. What I am doing is getting it professionally made up. Des has a contact for anyone interested. Once I have that, all pristine and shiny, I'll need a truly filthy grey J15 to go alongside it; another SSM kit!

 

Careful now - any more an' ye'll have the whole set

[jhb171achill]

Careful now..... UP with this sort of thing! :-)

[Scots Mac]

Hi guys ' at the end of the day for me personally economics among other things dictate the pace , I have a pal over here who is as good a brass kit builder as you'll get,his workmanship is superb but he's always up to his eyes in work so if I chose to use him to build kits for me . I'd need to join a very long queue and wait for weeks on end to receive my loco and 2. it costs a fortune. I know full well that the 800 class by SSM is a superb model and not all that expensive as brass kits go and my efforts in kitbashing UK proprietary plastic types will never be as accurate , BUT on the other hand I can buy at least three good 2nd hand rebuilt patriots/Royal Scots or whatever that with a wee bit work I am skilled enough to do myself in a few hours and will produce acceptable renditions of an Irish 800 class for the price of just purchasing one brass model not including the cost of building it. Same applies to many of the other specialised irish items for sale on the home-produced irish market. So no they aren't expensive for what they are and profit margins may be low for the producers but nonetheless the hard reality is in the real world theres a huge 2nd hand market of close looking UK rolling stock which can be re-painted re-decaled/kitbashed to produce if not perfect , still decent representations of the chosn prototypes.This doesn't apply to the diesels being produced by Pat Murphy because however Pat does it he brings to the market locomotives which are superbly accurate and at a price comparable to UK diesel prices AND theres few if any UK diesels that lend themselves to conversion to Irish types. It seems to me that it would be more appealing if the likes of SSM produced cheaper resin /plastic irish loco bodies that fit onto suitable UK chassis. Like the 800 class. Buy the resin body and tender body and fit it straight onto say a Mainline or Airfix,etc,etc chassis. I'm only talking for myself and others will see it different but I am comfortable working away the way I do. I have no interest in learning to build brass kits nor spend the money or time on them. One of the big attractions to me in getting into irish steam was the fact that using the UK 2nd hand market I realised that I could very quickly build up an acceptably pleasing (to me) collection of Irish outline models by kitbashing UK types. And the other thing is I also have other model railway interests that require my time and money. DAVY

[Riversuir226]

For a long time Ssm J26, Maeve, Bandon tank and J15 have been on my radar problem is me and brass don t get on, I ve tried 2 brass kits one was a disaster and the other is barely presentable. I do intend to rebuild a few rtr br locos with plasticard but I ve a load of jobs on the bench before I have a go at a steamer.

[UP6936]

Careful now..... UP with this sort of thing! :-)

Darn I was just thinking of making that reference!

[Ral2011]

You are right a RTR of the WT wouldn't sell very good, but what about a conversion kit from SSM to convert for example a Hornby Folwer into a WT class?

A RTR A-Class from Murphy would be absolutely great.