Tales from the carriage shops

[jhb171achill]

6 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

 

Happy New Year everyone, however you say in it your language!

Leslie

“Bom nua felicade”, or something, according to Junior’s Portuguese-speaking girlfriend.....!

The Provincial guards Van is especially useful. Up to now, we’ve had the CIE one, but nothing from pre-1960. Repainted BR vans just aren’t the same. 

Then Provincial brought in the GNR one - superb! But this is suitable for GNR, UTA and NIR, as very few of these ended up with CIE, and those that did were replaced very quickly, so they’re hardly suitable for, say, a layout based somewhere down south after 1960.

Now we have the GSWR and GNR vans for pre-1960-ish, and the standard CIE one for later.

Great thanks are due, therefore, to Leslie, SSM and others.

It might be pointed out, though, that while CIE standardised on their 30T and 20T vans after 1960, in the 1950s and earlier there were quite a variety of vans, not just of GSWR origin, but also GSR, MGWR, DSER, CBSCR and even one Timoleague & Courtmacsherry van which appears to have survived in use until 1961. 

 

[Magpie1951]

Athbhliain faoi shéan is faoi mhaise duit Leslie.

[leslie10646]

And - 

"Athbhliain faoi shéan is faoi mhaise duit" to you too Magpie!

[leslie10646]

Then Provincial brought in the GNR one - superb! But this is suitable for GNR, UTA and NIR, as very few of these ended up with CIE, and those that did were replaced very quickly,......

Dead right, Jon, but not before John Dewing took that wonderful photo of 184 in her green livery pulling a transfer freight over Islandbridge Jct, with a GNR van right behind the engine. 

Those GN vans had a working life akin to the BR Standard steam locos - a lot of them didn't survive to celebrate their 21st!

Aargh.... that was fifty one  years ago - GN steam had ended and the World was about to end..........  

yet I'm still here (by the Grace of God) and I've packed an enormous amount of steam running into the time between (in over two dozen countries)

[patrick]

Regarding the GA brake vans, I recall seeing one in Tralee about  1966 or 1967. It came in on the afternoon Cork Tralee goods which at the time I recall was often powered by a Sulzer.

 

[Mayner]

One of last years New Year resolutions was to focus on clearing my existing backlog of projects before starting any new modelling projects which seems to have backfired with much the same list of my own projects on the go 12 months later.

One exception was the test build of the 52 Class 4-4-0 over the Christmas, basically a final check to identify any modifications required to the tooling before releasing the production version.

Major sub-assemblies, loco body, loco chassis & bogie, tender chassis and SSM J15 tender.

This loco is modelled on GSWR No 1 running in late GSWR/early GSR condition with 3 ring raised round topped boiler as a racing machine with short cab roof.

Loco body sub assemblies. 

The footplate running board assembly is similar in concept to the SSM J15 & S7 LNER D16 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/147957-7mm-lner-d163-two-years-down-and-nothing-to-show/ and is surprisingly strong once the splashers and cab side sheets were soldered in place. 

The kit is designed to be assembled with a raised firebox, the flange between the boiler and firebox is a lost wax casting from a 3D printed master.

Boiler smokebox assembly is a bayonet fit to the cab at the firebox end the smokebox bolts to the running board.

Some adjustments are required to the smokebox, boiler and firebox wrappers for the production tooling. Funnily enough no major corrections are required to the footplate/valence sub assemblies.

Loco chassis. I assembled this particular loco to run on 21mm gauge track with a compensated chassis using High Level hornblocks and Gibson wheels, turning the axles from 1/8" silver steel, I have used a 2mm wagon axle as a temporary pivot for the leading rocking axle. Inside valve gear is based on a Beyer Peacock 101 Class GA and likely to be similar to that fitted to contemporary GSWR classes. No significant issues were identified with the chassis though I need to open up the clearance hole for the bolt that secures the smokebox to the running plate.

 

The bogie is simple enough the pivot arrangement is recommended in John Ahearn's "Miniature Locomotive Construction" and Guy William's "4mm Engine" and minimise the risk of shorting against the frames compared with the usual swing link arrangement.

Wheels are again Gibson axles 2mm silver steel with the ends polished off in the Unimat SL

 

Tender Chassis.  I designed a tender chassis with floating leading and center axle on the "Sharman free bogie" principal for use with the kit for improved traction compared to a conventional tender chassis, the kit includes the longer extended coal plates which appears in some photos of 52 & 60 Class locos with this form of tender. I may at some stage produce a fret for the 2500 Gal tender introduced for use with the 52 Class and later used with smaller GSWR locos on long haul passenger and freight duties.

Again the chassis securing holes need to be enlarged on the tender.

Next stage will be to set up the motor and gearbox and pick up system before assembling the loco and tender brake gear, I usually use an underslung gearbox arrangement with a vertical motor in express passenger locomotives which may be challenging in a 52 Class!

[StevieB]

That’s looking rather fine.

Stephen

[David Holman]

Nice. VERY nice!

[Mayner]

Not quite an ex-works line up! No 33 Arrow & No 34 Aurora.

After a number of unsuccessful attempts the photo engraver finally produced the correct brass running numbers for these locos, no 33 is posed on 650s chassis as a result of poor service from wheel suppliers int he UK.

The loco running numbers will be finished in polished brass and are part of an overlay that's fixed to the splasher sides rather than individual numerals, both locos would have run in this condition in the early 1920s in unlined black with name, number and makers plates before GSR re-numbering, loosing name and maker plates and sheep dip treatment in grey, before further rebuilding with GSR cabs and boiler swaps from the 1930s onwards

Edited January 7, 2020 by Mayner

[leslie10646]

John M,

I don't know where to start - the Class 52 build is looking terrific - the late Drew Donaldson would have wept tears of joy, for as we oldies know, the great 7mm modeller had a great affection for the GSWR's locos.

Then, just to rub it in, TWO Midland 2-4-0s!

Always a treat to see these locos coming together in the hands of a great modeller.

Happy New Year (in Maori)

Leslie

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

John M,

I don't know where to start - the Class 52 build is looking terrific - the late Drew Donaldson would have wept tears of joy, for as we oldies know, the great 7mm modeller had a great affection for the GSWR's locos.

Then, just to rub it in, TWO Midland 2-4-0s!

Always a treat to see these locos coming together in the hands of a great modeller.

Happy New Year (in Maori)

Leslie

Its odd celebrating Christmas and the New Year at this time of year in the Southern Hemisphere, our real New Year is in July this year when the starts in the Matariki (eyes of God) or Pleiades) constellation rise in the winter sky.

The 52 Class has turned out well, but much easier if I had followed Drew Donaldson's, Tim Cramer's or David Holman's example and built the loco in 7mm Scale!

 

[Georgeconna]

Two Beautys there John.

[Mayner]

Further progress with the assembly of the 52 Class though I might have to re-number the loco or complete in GSWR livery as I managed to assemble the loco with a different boiler to the study photograph without noticing until the loco is nearly complete 

I was inspired to build the loco in this condition as it looks like the crew and guest are about to set out on a fast if not record breaking run on the main line, at the time the 52 Class appear to have been working Kingsbridge - Tullow & Carlow-Kilkenny trains with fast running to Sallins or Cherryville Junction for the crews honor and  to avoid delaying long distance trains.

Firemans side.

I assembled No 1 with a 3 ring boiler in accordance with the GSR diagram rather than the 2 ring type fitted to the loco in early GSR days. Ironically I designed the boiler to be assembled in either form.

Boiler fittings are from the SSM J15, safety valve needs to be re-seated, not sure about the profile of the dome. Buffers and tender toolboxes are brass castings from 3D printed masters.

The tender body is SSM GSWR 1864 Gal tender with extended coal plates which often coupled to small ex-GSWR tender locos in GSR & CIE days.

Driversides. Vacuum brake pipe 0.9mm brasswire soldered under the running board, the curves in the pipework also tended to look a bit agricultural on the full size locos.

I will probably end up replacing the boiler and firebox on this loco as I need to make a number of corrections to the production boiler and firebox wrappers.

 

Assembly of the loco body is substantially complete, whistle and cab interior to be added, I need to fabricate a tender floor and coal plate and fit axleboxes and springs (after painting).

Loco and tender brake gear to be assembled, the motor and gearbox is set up to confirm that the motor actually fits in the firebox and boiler!

Inside Stephensons gear and compensation pivot. The gear is based on the  Beyer Peacock GA for the original members of the 101 Class, available information on the 52 Class is basically limited to weight diagrams and photographs.

Underside of loco chassis showing bogie pivot arrangement, I usually build 4-4-0s with a sprung or rocking leading driving axle and a rigid bogie, the slotted guide is an attempt to improve tracking and is theoretically capable of going round a 2'  radius curve in OO.

 

[Galteemore]

Beautiful. Those 4-4-0s had a spidery grace that marks them out and you have really captured it.

[David Holman]

That is just stunning! Almost seems a shame to paint it. Lovely work.

[Mayner]

 

Aurora almost ready for a visit to the paint shop. The loco was cleaned with cream cleaner using an old tooth brush to remove tarnish and grease, a surprising amount of dirt remains in the hard to reach places and crevices and will be removed with a fibreglass brush followed by a trip to the sand blasting booth and another scrub and rinse before priming.

The photos are good at showing up blemishes and defects that you don't pick up by simply looking at the model, somehow or other the guardiron on the left hand side got pushed back and will need straightening before priming. 

The track is EM so the loco is literally sitting on the edge of its tyres.

[DiveController]

Following this thread with interest, John (hoping I can make one )

[Angus]

I really like those Stirling style cabs, not classic MGWR in outline but very attractive non the less.

Looking forward to seeing you finish this one.

[Mayner]

The Stirling cabs fitted to the 2-4-0s and some standard goods looked at attractive but were unpopular with the enginemen  complaints of head injuries and poor weather protection and appear to have been replaced reasonably quickly by the GSR. One loco superheated by the GSR in the late 20s even retained a flyaway cab!

[Angus]

I'm slowly build a spreadsheet record of what cabs and boilers where fitted and when from photographs I've found in various books for the G2s, J18/19s and the D16s.

I've found a reasonably priced copy of Locos of the GSR which hopefully will add some more information. It should arrive in the next few days.

Cab types, boilers, splashed cut outs are real minefield in the GSR days. It looks like almost every combination existed at some point. It's just a case of working out on which loco and when.

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Angus

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Angus said:

I'm slowly build a spreadsheet record of what cabs and boilers where fitted and when from photographs I've found in various books for the G2s, J18/19s and the D16s.

I've found a reasonably priced copy of Locos of the GSR which hopefully will add some more information. It should arrive in the next few days.

Cab types, boilers, splashed cut outs are real minefield in the GSR days. It looks like almost every combination existed at some point. It's just a case of working out on which loco and when.

 

That book will tell you absolute chapter and verse on all that sort of thing! A stupendous work, often referred to in jhb171 Towers.

[Mayner]

The GSR appears to have operated a pool system for boiler repairs for the "standard" ex-GSWR & MGWR Classes to speed up repairs.

Locomotives would receive the 1st available boiler following repair, boilers also appear to be swapped in an emergency if an emergency to keep a loco in service if a boiler suddenly failed in traffic. 

To confuse things further both the belpaire and roundtopped boilers fitted to the Midland 2-4-0s seem to have been treated as a common pool with locos that had belpaire boilers reverting to round topped following repairs with some locos apparently having up to 5-6 boiler changes during GSR/CIE ownership.

The 2-4-0s were considered to be the best of the Midland locos running up higher mileage than the Standard Goods and other Small Passenger types between repairs, but not as high as the large Connemara D5&6 Class 4-4-0s which were considered to be "sluggish bad running engines" by the GSR but ran up similar mileage between repair to the Woolwich Moguls. The D5 & D6 had a reputation of being rough running though strong pullers and appear to have had a successful interlude on Dublin-Limerick via Nenagh and on the Mallow Tralee line during the 1930s not bad for 'foreign" locos.

A dated photo is the beast option if you want to build a model of a particular loco at a given time.

[Galteemore]

Interesting comment John, on the D6 class. They are striking locos with a real presence, like a GNRI S class which had spent a lot of time in the gym...

 

photo courtesy of Mike Morant’s smugmug site....https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS/GREAT-SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-STEAM/i-72sHVQm

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Interesting comment John, on the D6 class. They are striking locos with a real presence, like a GNRI S class which had spent a lot of time in the gym...

 

photo courtesy of Mike Morant’s smugmug site....https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS/GREAT-SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-STEAM/i-72sHVQm

 

Think it might actually be 548 or 549 one of the larger Celtic or D5 Class there is no record in the "GSR Locomotive Bible" or other sources of a D6 being rebuilt in that particular form.

542 at Inchacore she was withdrawn from service in 1959 round the same time as the remaining CIE 4-4-0s so they can't have been all that bad.

The large Midland 4-4-0s were often required to work cattle trains and had smaller driving wheels that the GSWR express passenger locos and would have had to have been worked harder than the Southern engines to run at high speed which probably contributed to their reputation of sluggishness and rough running.

I will probably do one at some stage once I complete the Standard Goods, the Cattle Engine, and some coaches if I live long enough!

[Angus]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

That book will tell you absolute chapter and verse on all that sort of thing! A stupendous work, often referred to in jhb171 Towers.

The book has arrived today and is indeed very comprehensive, definitely a worthwhile purchase.

My spreadsheet refers out to relevant photos so not a complete waste of time thankfully!

[David Holman]

Lovely stuff!

[Mayner]

I finally got the paint shop into operation after about 2 years.

The J26 was first in line as I had finished the body of the loco several years ago. I prepped the loco by sandblasting with a Badger abrasive gun, followed by scrubbing with the local equivalent of Jif scouring cream followed by a good rinse and several hours drying.

 

Priming was with Finixa aerosol grey etch primer TSP 190.

The weather has been warm and sunny so I did the paint spraying outside rather than in the workshop spray booth.

The loco chassis was painted with Railmatch "Weathered Black" which had been standard for GSR/CIE grey

The exact shade of GSR/CIE can be an emotive subject, but I got a sample from an A1 source, not from Grey who's coat seems to be fading in the Sun while Babushka hides in the loco shed.

Linkup Paints our local automotive and industrial paint supplier colour matched a 400Ml aerosol lacquer from the paint sample with interesting results.

Lacquer has the advantages of good scratch/chip resistant and a good base for applying decals.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Mayner

[David Holman]

Fine looking model of fine little loco.

[Mayner]

The J26 was a guinea pig for the GSR paint mix, so it was all systems go in the paint shops.

We recently completed a new gardenshed/workshop 3mX1.8m in order to re-locate my non-modelling tools out of the garage/railway room, but the paint new shed appears to have been converted into a paint shop!

We also built a larger 4.2 X 2.4 shed for the wife's art studio to help smooth the waters especially with a new live steam loco due to arrive at some stage in 2020.

Painted 650 & Ks on right, chassis dismantled for painting in center. Badger abrasive gun in improvised blasting booth on left, the ice cream container contains most of the grit while blasting the plant tray catches any overspill, I only blast outdoors using fullface respirator with P2 mask and car painters Blackdragon disposable gloves,  I have had my compressor Italian made with a reservoir bought in the Book/Model Railway shop at Headington roundabout Oxford about 20 years ago and still seems to be up to the job.

Slightly more close up view 650 is in GSR grey, Ks 33 Arrow in MGWR black.

The loco and tender bodies break down into 6 sub assemblies, the tender top is intended to be removable for accessing DCC a DCC decoder.

I will leave the paintwork to cure for about a week before re-assembling and completing locos.

[Georgeconna]

That looks really sweet john, Veyr nicely assembled and flawless.

 

[jhb171achill]

Superb.

Lately, I have come across another example of what is almost certainly original GSR / CIE grey paint, and again, what you're doing looks very much the part.

A bit darker than current 071 grey, albeit frequently darker LOOKING in traffic mixed with soot and oily rags!

While my memories of the CIE area at the end of steam days are sparse, I am aware from photos how absolutely filthy locomotives were allowed to get in the early 1960s. Fast forward to NIR in the late 60s, and 1970, and they're as bad if not worse.

I watched a "Jeep" running round a ballast train in Lisburn towards the end (must have been Feb / Mar 1970 - exactly fifty years ago!) and I thought "that's what they'd look like if they had been painted a plain colour", as you couldn't see ANY of the lining or old UTA crest......

I witnessed the dying days of steam in Austria, India, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Indonesia in the late 1970s, and even the very last few locos just kept in reserve for the odd extra goods train, shunting, or to cover a diesel failure, were always kept immaculately clean! Most of mainland Europe the same although some Spanish examples were tatty - though nowhere near as bad as ours! British ones got filthy too......

Edited January 26, 2020 by jhb171achill

[popeye]

I noticed a 201 loco pulling the Enterprise the other day, it looked like it needed a good wash.

I'm sure they must have the equipment for cleaning trains.

I have seen the carriage washing machines, so why don't they use them? 

[Mayner]

I decided to experiment with casting Woods Metal or Cerrobend rather than sheet or liquid lead to ballast the MGWR 2-4-0. 

I ordered the metal ignots from MicroMark in the States as most businesses in Australia/New Zealand do not re-open after the Christmas/New Year Holidays until mid-January.

I decided to make the patterns out of modelling clay for speed/ease of use and do the casting in rubber moulds as they could be used in other locos.

The rubber moulds are cast in mould boxes made from 0.60" plasticard. I use a NorthWest Shortline Duplicutter for cutting uniform strip of plasticard. 

Masters in yellow clay and background & Woods Metal Nugget.

I use a Chopper with an adjustable fence for cutting plasticard or stripwood to a uniform length.

I bought these NorthWest Shortline tools many years ago while living in the UK possibly in Victors of Islington a famous American (& Continental) Model Railroad Shop.

The work bench is due a re-organisation (including raising the power outlets to a safer height!) as part of a workshop/railway room re-organisation.

Completed mould boxes. The casting box on the right are for forming smaller ingots as the Micro Mark Nugget is too big to fit in the casting ladle!

Pouring in the RTV (Room Temperature Vulcanising) rubber. I used an Australian Barnes 2 part product called Pinkysil https://www.barnes.com.au/addition-cured/pinkysil-silicone-2209.

I have successfully used this material for simple and plug moulds for casting parts in polyester resin.

Completed moulds, I used an empty cat food container as a mixing vessel. Although having a limited shelf life once opened, I had no problems with these moulds at least 3 years after opening the containers for the last moulding session.

 

Interior of mould cavity approx 3 hours after casting.

Castings best done outdoors  Woods Metal can release toxic (lead & Cadmium) vapours when melted.Woods metal melts at 70°C. A tin bitusmuth alloy is lead and cadmium free but melts at a 140°C would be a safer alternative. 

I used an old serving spoon from the kitchen as a ladel for melting the original nugget and pouring into the ignot mould. The casting ladel with its spouts allows better control for casting the ballast weights.

The filled mould, Micro burner and ladel are on an offcut of fibre cement board (non asbestos)

 

The complete castings & any surplus metal goes back into the mould. While Woods Metal melts at 70°C the temperature in the ladel may have been higher as the castings took a considerable time to solidify, alternatively the rubber may have acted as an insulator retaining the heat in the metal.

 

[Mike 84C]

Looks like you have rediscovered Floquil Grimy Black with your grey mix. I will forward the email I had from Richard when I have worked out how to move from outlook to this site.

[Mayner]

8 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Looks like you have rediscovered Floquil Grimy Black with your grey mix. I will forward the email I had from Richard when I have worked out how to move from outlook to this site.

Special credit to JHB for the GSR paint sample & Linkup Paints https://www.linkup.co.nz/ for their colour matching service. Unfortunately I am unable to export the laquer or enamel by airmail.

Mike: I will send you my e-mail address.