Glenderg Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 To address both Horsetan and Warbonnets thoughts, the Minimum wage in Ireland is €8.65 an hour. So let's start with that in respect of the chassis alone. I timed it this evening to trim, fix, add larger irish buffers plates, and add some detail. Cleaning up the underside and adding a passable brake gear would easily take another 15 minutes. So we're up to €16.00. Squirt of primer and let the whole thing dry, another 50 cent. Oh and what if you wanted steps for that brake van, or a plough for the ballast plough. Another half hour to get them right, form them, wait for them to glue, so we're up at €21.00. At this point lets assume, as a wagon, I'm going to do the Ballast Plough. Do I ask the punter to pay for my design skills that are put into it spread over the cost of the amount of wagons I intend to produce? Of course I do. A meagher rate of €22 per hour would be absolute base, and looking at least 8 hours to produce and refine accurate CAD drawings would be damn fine progress. So let's go with that for pig iron. €176. Let me assume I'll sell 36 of those units over the lifetime of the project, that adds another €5 to each kit. So, quick recap. Loads done, but only a chassis glued together - €26.00. I need to cut out the styrene parts to form the cab, glue them and let them sit. €1 for the styrene and 1 hour to assemble the cab. €35.65 By the time I form a roof, get the ventilators, add the handrails to the sides, another hour has gone by. €44.30 - say €45.00 to pay for the brass and the glue and the vents. Another squirt of primer, and let her sit. Paint will take another hour in the morning, and that's only the base coat. €53.65 and wait for the base coat to harden, usually overnight. Make it €55 to pay for the paint. And the masking tape. Decals can be sourced from whomever, say €2 as a rough figure. It takes me ages to put decals on, don't want them sliding all over the shop, so we're up to €65.65. Once that's done it has to get a coat of sealer to blend the decals, and lock the finish. That takes a few hours to harden properly, and then the windows and etches can go on the top, so probably up around the €70.00 mark now, and you have a finished ballast wagon. Here's the hidden bit - If I started one on a Monday morning 9 a.m., I would be lucky to have one haven gone all the stages of drying for paints by friday afternoon. I'd also have to do about 8 of them to make my time worthwhile. Now imagine I had the cheek to add a modest bit of profit on top, say a tenner for taking the risk and so on, would you buy a poxy ballast plough for €80 ???? I certainly wouldn't. Thoughts on a postcard... Richie. Quote
Killucan2 Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 They all want this one ,that one and when they get price they RUN, sure half them are tyre kicker's I will take xx of this xx of that, don't here from them again I think some people want them for nothing!! Quote
leslie10646 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 Still can't understand why Murphy Models hasn't produced any wagons to go with those magnificent locos. Take the cement bubble for example.....the average modeller will buy enough to make a decent sized rake, so even if the minimum run is 5,000 wagons, I can't see how they wouldn't sell over time. Obviously, it has to be financially worthwhile, so maybe use one of those project funding sites such as Kickstarter, where you either pledge or provide your cash up front. At least then, you will know if the project is viable or not. Sorry, old boy, that simply doesn't work out in practice. I agree that you would think that most guys would want, say ten bubbles, but most don't have layouts that big and they don't buy in those amounts - so you 5,000 is a dream! I produced a RTR cattle wagon, which like the bubble would have run in at least tens on specials - yet only three modellers bought anything like that size of rake. Producing an easy to make kit is probably the way forward - but I do mean easy to make, for like a couple of the guys above, I ain't into brass, resin, whitemetal, plastic etc! A good moment to mention that ALL my handmade wagons are now available as kits at about €26 Euros each (£22 to the Brits!). Good night Leslie Quote
patrick Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 A quick look at "The Locomotives of CIE and NIR" will show that there is no "standard 20 foot chassis" There are variations in plates lift rings and brake gear between different wagon types and possibly in within classes also. A simple white metal kit consisting of solebars and bufferbeams which could be detailed as required may be the answer but for now the availability and price of the Dapol Prestwin is hard to beat. Its also easy to assemble, comes with wheels and couplers (if you choose to use them) and runs well. Quote
leslie10646 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 Richie Thanks for the sanity check on the real cost of doing RTR. I was yelled down as a thief and a robber when I did the GN brake van for £40 (€47 at the time). Well - after selling over a hundred brakevans, my modeller realised that it was taking over his life and demanded a lot more! Not as attractive at a sensible price, if orders are anything to go by! Leslie Quote
Horsetan Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 They all want this one ,that one and when they get price they RUN, sure half them are tyre kicker's I will take xx of this xx of that, don't here from them again I think some people want them for nothing!! "I will, yeah" actually means "I will me ars*" Quote
BosKonay Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 This thread makes the work of those who do rtr all the more awesome and I reckon I'll be nominating paddy Murphy for sainthood! My personal opinion is that many expert modelers who take comissions are too cheap! Quote
Killucan2 Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 We'll if you put the price up they won't sell,a lot of work and time go into cad,building painting models it's not like getting something that might look like x and slap a coat of paint on and hope some person will buy I think that day is gone now. Quote
Killucan2 Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Might see a 121 first before any rtr fright. Edited March 19, 2014 by Killucan2 Quote
aclass007 Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Might see a 121 first before any rtr fright. And an A class, a C class and a Sulzer........... Quote
heirflick Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 And an A class, a C class and a Sulzer........... patience dear boy.......lets pray for the 121 first! Quote
BosKonay Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 :praying::praying::praying::praying::praying: The pews are full to capacity on that one! Quote
Warbonnet Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 And an A class, a C class and a Sulzer........... and a turfburner! Quote
heirflick Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 and a turfburner! why are you laughing at that beautiful creation called the turfbnurner Fran? men have been shot for less! Quote
Warbonnet Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 why are you laughing at that beautiful creation called the turfbnurner Fran? men have been shot for less! I love it as much as the next man Shem, but not a hope she'd be done RTR. Quote
heirflick Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 I love it as much as the next man Shem, but not a hope she'd be done RTR. ....i know.... Quote
Weshty Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Coming to the discussion late, but Richie pretty much nailed it on the head in terms of turnkey costs, from R&D to the final decal. It really does add up. I'll have easily hit four figures before the first ammonia is sold. Quote
UP6936 Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 I reckon I'll be nominating paddy Murphy for sainthood! Who do you think Saint Patricks day is named for!? Seriously, if paddy did a run of wagons at a reasonable price I would certainly pick up a few. The 20ft flat would be a good choice, because it could be a standalone wagon aswell as a base to put other company's kits on top of, provided it was reasonable priced Quote
Glenderg Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I've been working on the prestwin chassis, like most of us here, and generally accepting it as legit for irish just because it has the 12 ft wheelbase. The more of them i built, the more i've seen their shortcomings. Buffers are wrong, brake gear is weird, and size is a bit unreliable. At the weekend i just got a goo on me to have a look at making up the axle box, leaf springs, and dampers to see if it could be cast. Up top is a bit of mawla, ( just to check the voracity of the model) the middle is the prestwin, and below my effort. You can see the obvious difference between the prestwin and the original. Not making out for a minute my effort is super duper here... Where i'm going with this is three fold. If a chassis is to be available that is ball park correct, it needs to be priced below the cost of the dapol prestwin as it does not contain wheels nor couplings so we're talking about 4 ish euro to make it competitive. Resin is a donkey material that does more twisting than elvis and has no weight, so is whitemetal the preferred option? Lastly, are folks prepared to add after market buffers coupling hooks and brake gear, or would they want it included in the overall kit? I'm just throwing this out there for a bit of disussion. Casting is not in my skillset, but it might inform other manufacturers. Richie. Quote
Mayner Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) Riche Funnily enough inspired by Patrick's 27101 conversion I looked at a brass floor, buffer beams a brake gear to convert a Prestwin into a 20' flat, I came to much the same conclusion/confusion and the artwork for a brass 25436 flat is with the engravers. The aim was to produce a relatively straight forward kit designed to run on 21mm gauge, a chassis fabricated from brass is probably a better option for a flat as you haven't got the warping and shrinkage problems with casting in either whitemetal or resin. I drew this a few years ago but gave up as the 3D Printer & CAD packages don't want to talk to each other so I concentrate on etched brass and traditional pattern making. If you have mastered 3D solid modelling a 3D printed wax master for lost wax casting or a brass pattern may be a viable option for pattern making for whitemetal or resin casting, but you need to make allowance for shrinkage or expansion of the finished casting. The wax master would need cleaning up to remove ridges from the printing, which is really no different from machining and finishing a metal pattern Edited March 25, 2014 by Mayner Quote
Weshty Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Interesting work gents. The Prestwin retails at c. €7, so you need to come in under that just to break even. A whitemetal casting would certainly do the job, and minimise construction. It would minimise construction time, provide good weight and be relatively cheap in terms of set up costs. I'd suggest brass W-Irons to ensure free running and counteract any distortion of the chassis. A lost wax brass version? Wow. That would be rock solid! Quote
iarnrod Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I think if anyone can come up with a prototypical Irish 20' chassis, you are onto a winner as this forms the basis for many other Irish wagons. Weshty, just curious if you will be releasing the 47' flat anytime soon, and if you will consider doing a brass etch for the fertiliser wagon doors, seen as you have the 42' flat wagon nearly ready for release. If the doors were available as an add non, one could construct a fertiliser wagon with a few bits of plastic, as they were built on a 42' flat wagon chassis, if I am not mistaken? Thanks. Quote
scahalane Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I think if anyone can come up with a prototypical Irish 20' chassis, you are onto a winner as this forms the basis for many other Irish wagons. Weshty, just curious if you will be releasing the 47' flat anytime soon, and if you will consider doing a brass etch for the fertiliser wagon doors, seen as you have the 42' flat wagon nearly ready for release. If the doors were available as an add non, one could construct a fertiliser wagon with a few bits of plastic, as they were built on a 42' flat wagon chassis, if I am not mistaken? Thanks. Now that's a great idea! Des.....over to you! Quote
Weshty Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Thanks Sca'! Let's get the current batch finalised and out first though. Quote
iarnrod Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Are the brake wheels that are used on Irish wagons a CIE design? I notice that the new Bachmann Polybulk has a very similar five slot version of brake wheel, where as the Irish wagons all have six slots on the brake wheels. Have searched high and low on the net but can't find anything remotely similar until the Bachmann Polybulk wagon came along. Quote
Glenderg Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Twould appear they are irish. People use kadee brake wheels as a stop gap, but they tend to stick out. These are the ones you'll be wantin. A prototype from SSM... Quote
Glenderg Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Quick and dirty prototype this evening - not for the finescale modeller, but it works. Concept is a fold up inner frame and then cosmetic solebars and buffer beam on. Added additional shims around the bearing to stop the wheelset dropping out.[ATTACH=CONFIG]12540[/ATTACH] This is the scale width of the real thing, with a scale ballast hopper on top. All i need now is to cast the cosmetic axel assembly and detail it up, as ou would with a prestwin - brake gear, bum hopper, brake wheels vac pipe, buffers and coupling hook. Cost to me so far.... a little over a euro..... Quote
iarnrod Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Nice one glenderg. They will do the job alright. Just hope Weshty plans on selling them as individual parts along with the bogies. Looking forward to his ammonia wagons and bogie flats. They look the dogs. Hopefully the first of many wagon kits of that calibre. Quote
Mayner Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) Quick and dirty prototype this evening - not for the finescale modeller, but it works. Concept is a fold up inner frame and then cosmetic solebars and buffer beam on. Added additional shims around the bearing to stop the wheelset dropping out.[ATTACH=CONFIG]12540[/ATTACH] This is the scale width of the real thing, with a scale ballast hopper on top. All i need now is to cast the cosmetic axel assembly and detail it up, as ou would with a prestwin - brake gear, bum hopper, brake wheels vac pipe, buffers and coupling hook. Cost to me so far.... a little over a euro..... [ATTACH=CONFIG]12541[/ATTACH] Richie. Quick maybe but nothing dirty about it. We seem to have been thinking on much the same lines. Originally started out as a chequer plate floor, stanchions and bit for upgrading a Prestwin, fold up chassis on the left added after taking a closer look. Whole thing fits together with slots and tabs. Not sure of the unit price yet but a skeletal would be cheaper as it uses less material. Rocking W Irons don't really work on a skeletal, there is enough potential interest for a sprung version from the S4 modellers in the UK. Edited March 26, 2014 by Mayner Quote
scahalane Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 That etch template detail looks sweet John, I like the thread plate detail. Quote
burnthebox Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Do's this mean people, ie. modelers, are putting heads, as in human, together so that we may be able to buy rtr wagons, vans, etc. without having to go to the bank manager, Quote
Garfield Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Do's this mean people, ie. modelers, are putting heads, as in human, together so that we may be able to buy rtr wagons, vans, etc. without having to go to the bank manager, No, it's looking like a a kit... Quote
burnthebox Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 No, it's looking like a a kit... RTR is all I ask, do's not have to be to the exact detail of a prototype, Quote
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