Ernies Massive Irish 1930's to 2005 Photo Archive

[Old Blarney]

ERNIE'S PHOTOGRAPHS

Perusing Ernie's photographs today, I found this image of GNR No800 at Dundalk.  Whilst she certainly caught my attention -  there is something else in this photograph, that caught my eye and my attention. What might this be? 

Look to the right-hand -side of the photograph and to the rear of the shed.  There sits Cattle Wagon 4872.

What is unusual about Cattle Wagon 4872?  The loading ramp is at the end of this Cattle Wagon. Was this a one off?  Our Font of knowledge, young Mr Beaumont may well have the answer?  Jonathan, can you or others on our Forum provide further information? Why is this wagon or any companions different to the standard Cattle Wagon; the ones with their doors in the centre! 

IMAGE (Copied from Ernie's massive collection of Railway Photographs)

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Old Blarney

[Galteemore]

 

2 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

ERNIE'S PHOTOGRAPHS

Perusing Ernie's photographs today, I found this image of GNR No800 at Dundalk.  Whilst she certainly caught my attention -  there is something else in this photograph, that caught my eye and my attention. What might this be? 

Look to the right-hand -side of the photograph and to the rear of the shed.  There sits Cattle Wagon 4872.

What is unusual about Cattle Wagon 4872?  The loading ramp is at the end of this Cattle Wagon. Was this a one off?  Our Font of knowledge, young Mr Beaumont may well have the answer?  Jonathan, can you or others on our Forum provide further information? Why is this wagon or any companions different to the standard Cattle Wagon; the ones with their doors in the centre! 

IMAGE (Copied from Ernie's massive collection of Railway Photographs)

 

or is the shed door just obscuring the other end of the wagon ? 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Galteemore

[Old Blarney]

A very good question.  My excitement had got the better of me!  I discovered that which did not exist! 

Having looked at the photograph again, I should have observed the wheel position. Had I done so, your explanation would have become apparent to me. 

Thank you. 

[Galteemore]

2 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

A very good question.  My excitement had got the better of me!  I discovered that which did not exist! 

Having looked at the photograph again, I should have observed the wheel position. Had I done so, your explanation would have become apparent to me. 

Thank you. 

In fairness I thought same thing when I looked at the photo! 

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

 

or is the shed door just obscuring the other end of the wagon ? 

Yes. You're seeing the central "third" of the wagon, and the right hand "third". The left hand side is obscured by the shed. It's a GNR standard, assembled in Dundalk from a Provincial Wagons kit.....

What might be seen as interesting is that at this stage, long before UTA neglect, the GNR was neglecting the cosmetic appearance of its wagons to some extent.....

[Irishswissernie]

A couple of Cavan & Leitrim views.

 A good quality image of Arigna June 1957.

A not so good image of (I think) carriage truck 101 , Ballinamore ca 1952.

 

[Irishswissernie]

The Photographer described this as being the last steam worked 'Enterprise' but was it?

209 June 1957.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

23 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

The Photographer described this as being the last steam worked 'Enterprise' but was it?

209 June 1957.

 

I don’t think so? 

 

Didn’t a Jeep do the enterprise at one about 10 years later then this or am I remembering it wrong

 

 

[Galteemore]

That was the last ever Belfast - Dublin steam. This was the specifically branded ‘Enterprise’ train, which was entirely diesel from summer 57. Specials and many slower through trains on the route were still steam worked up till 66.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Galteemore

[Ironroad]

I don't think diesels operated all the way through to Belfast in the late '50s. I remember travelling to Belfast and the diesel was substituted with a Jeep at Goraghwood.

[GSR 800]

12 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

I don't think diesels operated all the way through to Belfast in the late '50s. I remember travelling to Belfast and the diesel was substituted with a Jeep at Goraghwood.

It was a BUT railcar set on the Enterprise after the VS class, so doubt that.

Did see a video in the early 1960s of a Jeep replacing two 141s on a Belfast bound train

 

[Ironroad]

I know railcars were used to operate the Enterprise service at some point post steam, but I don't think it was a straight switch from one to the other.  I definitely did travel to Belfast late '50s behind a diesel that was substituted for a Jeep at Goraghwood and I didn't dream that. 

 

 

[Galteemore]

I think the confusion here may arise from the modern use of ‘Enterprise’ for all Belfast-Dublin trains. Your train had an engine change but that would have been a normal Belfast-Dublin train and not the ‘Enterprise’, which was a non-stop service. 

[Ironroad]

There was a hard border at that time, I think all trains stopped at Goraghwood, for customs.

[GSR 800]

6 hours ago, Ironroad said:

I know railcars were used to operate the Enterprise service at some point post steam, but I don't think it was a straight switch from one to the other.  I definitely did travel to Belfast late '50s behind a diesel that was substituted for a Jeep at Goraghwood and I didn't dream that. 

 

 

Likely a regular train rather than the Enterprise, as Galteemore says

31 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

There was a hard border at that time, I think all trains stopped at Goraghwood, for customs.

All except the Enterprise, customs were checked at Amiens Street and GVS so it could run nonstop.

[jhb171achill]

OK, yes, confusion abounds!

Firstly, until the 1970s there were some trains which were not Enterprises. The last steam workings in the mid-60s between Dublin and Belfast, for example, were through trains all right, but not Enterprise-branded. The last REGULAR steam loco on these trains, which were a Belfast set, was Vs no. 207, now owned by the UTA.

From 1957 the GNR had one diesel railcar set on the actual "Enterprise" but the belfast set was still steam. After the UTA took over, this situation continued for a short time, but after 1961 CIE's new B121s were used - in fact, the Enterprise was, as far as I recall, the first regular run for B121s; their earliest forays of any sort were on goods. For a while, loco-hauled services had a CIE diesel as far as Dundalk, where a UTA loco - by now a "WT" class 2.6.4T, would take over. After a short while of that ridiculously unwieldy practice, railcars were used by the UTA and NIR (until 1970s), with CIE using diesel loco-hauled sets of coaches. Initially these were ex-GNR loco-hauled stock, gradually repainted into green, then black'n'tan, with various varieties of laminates and eventually cravens thrown into that eclectic mix. Standard CIE dining cars mixed with ex-GNR ones; one coach (brake 3rd 114, later in RPSI ownership) retained its brown GNR livery until 1967, the last GNR vehicle operating in GNR livery. Within this period of time an old GSWR dining car appeared on the Enterprise at least once.

All was modernised within a decade, with the Hunslets and identikit Mk 2s in 1970 from NIR, and 141s with "Supertrain" aircon Mk 2s from 1972. The troubles in the north led to the derailing of a CIE "Supertrain" set, so CIE, anxious to keep their best coaches in good order, promptly changed to using varied sets of a mix of park Royals, laminates and so on, on the Enterprise - scarcely a Craven even - for some years. By the time the 071 / 111s appeared in the late 70s / early 80s, CIE reverted to using more modern stock, and eventually the De Deitrichs.

While the short-lived loco change was at Dundalk, customs was at Dundalk and Goraghwood until they closed the latter station in 1965, after which it was carried out via a "green / red lane" system in Belfast Central and in Connolly.

Nobody bothered much with it. I brought two bottles of the very best Donegal poítín through it once..............

Incidentally, if you look up today's Translink website, which other than the atrociously unwieldy Bus Eireann website is the most truly awful website that exists; note their description of stations.

Within the north, Translink uses the term "train station" for everything from large places like portadown or belfast, to tiny graffiti-strewn one-platforms halts in the boondocks. Yet, on the "Enterprise" listings, if you can find them amongst the No. 32 bus from Buckna to Desertmartin, Dundalk station is listed as "Dundalk Rail Halt".

Is it me getting old and cranky, or are these people mentally challenged in some way?

16 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

The Photographer described this as being the last steam worked 'Enterprise' but was it?

209 June 1957.

 

It could be. They put a new railcar set on it at that time. However, what he might mean is the last Dublin-based one, as the Belfast set remained steam for a few months longer. Lambegman will have exact dates, I am sure.

[Galteemore]

8 hours ago, Ironroad said:

There was a hard border at that time, I think all trains stopped at Goraghwood, for customs.

Indeed, but as GSR 800 comments, the Enterprise worked differently. One particular feature was a shutter in the bar, which was moved across at the border to shut the ‘northern drinks cabinet’ and open the ‘southern’ one, thus ensuring alcohol was sold at correct duty rate in each jurisdiction! The only other train, I think, which crossed the border without checks, was the Bundoran Express, which avoided checks by not stopping at any stations in NI. Would have been a fine sight running round the curve of Enniskillen station. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Galteemore

[Irishswissernie]

This is probably at Inchicore ca 1960.

Strabane , Erne on the Letterkenny line June 1957 next to the NCC designed Signal Box. June 1957

 

 

[GSR 800]

5 hours ago, Galteemore said:

 The only other train, I think, which crossed the border without checks, was the Bundoran Express, which avoided checks by not stopping at any stations in NI. Would have been a fine sight running round the curve of Enniskillen station. 

In no particular hurry, since it apparently took seven hours to get to Bundoran...

 

[Galteemore]

13 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

In no particular hurry, since it apparently took seven hours to get to Bundoran...

 

Yes, the ‘express’ bit simply referred to the non-stop run through the north. The Dublin-Dundalk leg did look rather more impressive as it could attract some heavy motive power of S class and above. Up the Irish North, though, the pace got more leisurely ! 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes, the ‘express’ bit simply referred to the non-stop run through the north. The Dublin-Dundalk leg did look rather more impressive as it could attract some heavy motive power of S class and above. Up the Irish North, though, the pace got more leisurely ! 

 

When Senior was on the GNR, even senior GNR men referred to it (privately!) as "the slowest named train in civilisation"!

He saw it crawl through Enniskillen all the time - between the very sharp curve in the station, and its apparent inability to exceed 35 miles an hour anywhere west of Dundalk, its appearance was something that he saw as a non-event; a bit like a yellow machine or ICR at Stacumny Bridge on a wet February Tuesday morning, or a 29 at some graffiti and concrete halt in the Pale nowadays........... but what wouldn't we give to witness this slow-motion "express" today!

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Indeed, but as GSR 800 comments, the Enterprise worked differently. One particular feature was a shutter in the bar, which was moved across at the border to shut the ‘northern drinks cabinet’ and open the ‘southern’ one, thus ensuring alcohol was sold at correct duty rate in each jurisdiction! The only other train, I think, which crossed the border without checks, was the Bundoran Express, which avoided checks by not stopping at any stations in NI. Would have been a fine sight running round the curve of Enniskillen station. 

My late mother worked in the GNR catering department and on one occasion she had to stand in for a supervisor on board a Bundoran Express. At one stage, and she wasn't entirely sure where, as the train rounded a curve, a pile of dishes and glasses, just washed up and stacked on a counter in the kitchen car, crashed down onto the floor, leaving her and others ankle deep in smashed cups, saucers, plates, teapots and beer glasses.

The kitchen car had a double door in the kitchen area (like the RPSI's 88; perhaps the same vehicle). Whilst in motion they opened the doors and just swept the whole lot out onto the track, where the fragments will remain today! They opened the "customs" shutters and raided more beer glasses out of the "northern" bar part, as they would have run short otherwise! On arrival in Bundoran (where she was based in the railway-owned hotel), she ordered the hotel stores to stock the diner up before the train left again.........

On an entirely separate tangent, last summer I spent a very pleasant afternoon in the company of a large group of retired CIE men, a consequence of my ongoing research into the Loughrea branch. Some 20 years ago, I assisted Selwyn Johnston in his researches into finding old GNR, SLNCR & CDR men to be recorded (by him) of their railway experiences.

When you get a gathering of old railway people together, the stories you get out of them are absolute pure gold dust. While naturally it would be impossible to condone, let alone tolerate such things nowadays, the things they got up to behind the door, out of sight of rule books and health & safety men, often fuelled by Guinness - would make your hair stand on end........... tales of a boy porter and fireman taking a goods train up the Lisburn - Antrim branch during the war years, while the driver slept in a drunken stupor like a baby on the coal in the tender....and so on. As the man says, "ye couldn't make it up"!

The late Billy Lohan recounted a tale of a loco crew overnighting in Limerick Junction to take an early cattle special to Ennis the next day. They knew that the crew of another special included a notoriously awkward, paranoid and over-cautious driver. They decided to extract the wee-wee out of him. They rigged the dorm up with thin wires which allowed them (at the other end of the wire) to pull objects under his bunk at dead of night - this dorm always had a reputation for being haunted, and our Cork man was always highly reluctant to go near it. All night, our driver heard all sorts of unexplained bangs, scraping noises and the like. Eventually, he jumped out of bed, wrapped his blanket round him, and scarpered across the frost-covered tracks to the station waiting room, where embers in the fireplace had kept it warm. Upon his return to Cork the next day, he sought out the loco foreman, grabbed him by the lapels, and explained extremely graphically what he would do to him if he was ever again rostered for an overnight in Limerick Junction..........

I digress; back to the Enterprise and its relatives.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Irishswissernie]

I acquired a rather mixed bag of negatives recently, most somewhat scratched etc but there are some hidden gems.

This is Cashel in 1938 probably taken from the rock. You can see why the population of the town soon deserted the passenger trains!

I am pretty sure this one of JT 93 is at Greenore but there are no details with the negative.

 

[Horsetan]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

...When you get a gathering of old railway people together, the stories you get out of them are absolute pure gold dust. While naturally it would be impossible to condone, let alone tolerate such things nowadays, the things they got up to behind the door, out of sight of rule books and health & safety men, often fuelled by Guinness - would make your hair stand on end........... tales of a boy porter and fireman taking a goods train up the Lisburn - Antrim branch during the war years, while the driver slept in a drunken stupor like a baby on the coal in the tender....and so on. As the man says, "ye couldn't make it up"!...

That type of thing also reflects the Irish outlook on life - not hidebound by rules or regs or, at best, paying only lip service to them.

You couldn't imagine the Swiss doing that.

[Irishswissernie]

12 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

 

You couldn't imagine the Swiss doing that.

I always found the Swiss extremely accommodating! If you were travelling First Class then several times the railcar drivers if they saw you videoing etc, they would invite you to travel in the cab with them. At Buchs one day the train from Austria through to Zurich was delayed and a lady grew concerned that she would miss a flight from Zurich Airport. The Driver of an Ae6/6 powered freight overheard the passengers talking and offered to take us through to Ziegelbrucke (about halfway there) in the cabs of the loco. About 10 of us climbed aboard the loco and I managed to get a place in the front cab so I could video the trip. At Ziegelbrucke we transfered to a local train, the station staff ushering us all across the track rather than having to walk round via the subway.

[Irishswissernie]

GNRI 135 but where, no information with this negative unfortunately.

No information for this one either but it looks like Bangor on the County Down and possibly pre WWII. No 11.

 

[Irishswissernie]

A couple at Navan Junction, 10 September 1950, the second one has 638 arriving off the the Kingscourt line.

 

[airfixfan]

22 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

GNRI 135 but where, no information with this negative unfortunately.

No information for this one either but it looks like Bangor on the County Down and possibly pre WWII. No 11.

 

Last photo Definetly Bangor 

[leslie10646]

On 7/3/2023 at 12:21 PM, Old Blarney said:

A very good question.  My excitement had got the better of me!  I discovered that which did not exist! 

Having looked at the photograph again, I should have observed the wheel position. Had I done so, your explanation would have become apparent to me. 

Thank you. 

Good morning David, glad to see you on the site again!

Your cattle wagon raises a different query. The lower planks look decidedly lime-washed - I thought that had gone out by the time the MAK turned up?

Over to you Achill John?

[Irishswissernie]

I would say that the planks are just weather beaten, probably accentuated by lime washing in the distant past.

[leslie10646]

On 10/3/2023 at 10:00 AM, Irishswissernie said:

The Photographer described this as being the last steam worked 'Enterprise' but was it?

209 June 1957.

 

Good morning Ernie. I think that your photographer was part of the LCGB group led by Lance King in June 1957. His shots were taken further out, in fact I'll be showing them at a talk this afternoon! I know this because the first two coaches are in blue and cream.The loco is No.209 "Foyle".

Taken on 10 June 1957 (my 11th birthday!).

An earlier photo at Strabane was also taken by the same gent - Lance took the scene from the other side!

Thanks for sharing these so generously.

[Irishswissernie]

Good Morning Leslie, I understand the photographer was a Nick Nicholson, I have about 70 of his original slides.

While I think on have you any SLNCR cattle wagon kits in stock again?

Edited March 14, 2023 by Irishswissernie

[leslie10646]

1 hour ago, Irishswissernie said:

Good Morning Leslie, I understand the photographer was a Nick Nicholson, I have about 70 of his original slides.

While I think on have you any SLNCR cattle wagon kits in stock again?

Thanks, Ernie re the photographer's name. I must ask another member of the party if he was one of them!

Sorry, that's the one kit I am definitely out of. I have Michael working on a big order, but the SLNCR may have to wait until May (ie after Bangor).

Edited March 14, 2023 by leslie10646

[Irishswissernie]

County Donegal Railways, Railcars 20, 16 + 19 at Donegal Town June 1957, Pristine condition!

CB&SCR Cork Albert Quay, 464, 4 November 1960

 

[Irishswissernie]

Near Bray G2 661 with an ancient and modern-ish passenger set . 18 Sept 1954.