From the Catacombs

[airfixfan]

3 hours ago, Dhu Varren said:

1937 picture of Victoria Road station clearly shows the signal box next to the river.

That is from the Casserley collection. As you can see the signal box is closer to Strabane than it appears to be in the photo by senior in 1947. In that photo it appears to beside the broad gauge transhipment siding built during WW2?

[Dhu Varren]

I think your eyes are deceiving you airfixfan, the box is in exactly the same position in both photos and the 1951 plan shown earlier.

[jhb171achill]

Albert Quay, c.1938. Senior was out and about gricing...

No. 299 hides under the oddly-named “Rocksavage” loco “depot” bridge. There’s no place called “Rocksavage”, and I have often wondered where this name originated. Anyone know?

This would appear to the only picture on this visit, which may have been one of the two times he went to Macroom.

An engine like this would be ideal for Downpatrick today.

Edited April 10, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

15 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

It’s possible. Mind you, some Midland locos as well as coaches were to be seen on the DSER after 1925....

The leading coach is DSER, and the next one is either DSER or GSWR - hard to decipher but I’m pretty certain it’s not Midland. 
 

After 1925, of course, such was perfectly possible, just as ex-Midland coaching stick was to be seen as far afield as West Cork!

Only two carriages, but then a string of horse boxes - made me think initially of Leopardstown Races..... maybe Ballinasloe too, of course.

Location jury still out?

I am inclined to agree with Edo that the photo is of an up train leaving Longford for Mullingar or Broadstone.

The position and profiles of the loco shed, carriage shed and signal cabin were unique to Longford, "the churchspire" or blemish  is likely to be the post of the down home signal.

Longford engine shed had a high almost Spanish mission style cupola smoke vent, a carriage shed existed between the loco shed and down platform into GSR days which with the MGWR style footbridge would have created a twin arch effect.

The train consist appears to have been fairly typical of Sligo line trains in GSR days with coaches followed by a string of non-passenger coaching stock possibly Meat or Fish Vans rather than horseboxes.

 

 

 

[Galteemore]

Still don’t know what made me think those were Dublin semis! Happy memories of my days in D14 no doubt. Anyway, it’s Longford - great photo analyis by Edo and Mayner ! Have found a pic on p19 of Ernie Shepherd’s MGWR book which was taken near the same spot but from halfway up a signal post judging by the angle. All the main elements above are clearly in place, confirming the thesis. That would make the line on the left the unlifted stump of the double track to Mostrim, which was singled post 1925.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Galteemore

[Irishswissernie]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

No. 299 hides under the oddly-named “Rocksavage” loco “depot” bridge. There’s no place called “Rocksavage”, and I have often wondered where this name originated. Anyone know?

The area to the west of the Loco sidings is labelled Rocksavage on the 25" 1888-1913 Map, Rockborough House stood in the Gas Works site to the east and on the west again there was a lunatic Asylum on the 1837 pre-railway map which later became a hospital so it might have been a not so polite term for the Institution.

Here is 470 ca 1950  

[minister_for_hardship]

18 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

The area to the west of the Loco sidings is labelled Rocksavage on the 25" 1888-1913 Map, Rockborough House stood in the Gas Works site to the east and on the west again there was a lunatic Asylum on the 1837 pre-railway map which later became a hospital so it might have been a not so polite term for the Institution.

Here is 470 ca 1950  

 

I've never heard that term being used as such.

There is another Rocksavage on the coast near Clonakilty, I would be thinking someone who had connections to that locality, a country retreat perhaps, named the city area after it.

Alternatively there were Earls of Rocksavage (A courtesy title of Marquesses of Cholmondeley) so may be named to honour or curry favour with them, and/or an attempt to put a respectable veneer on the area perhaps.

[David Holman]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Albert Quay, c.1938. Senior was out and about gricing...

No. 299 hides under the oddly-named “Rocksavage” loco “depot” bridge. There’s no place called “Rocksavage”, and I have often wondered where this name originated. Anyone know?

This would appear to the only picture on this visit, which may have been one of the two times he went to Macroom.

An engine like this would be ideal for Downpatrick today.

Must have a closer look at this, to compare with the 7mm RTR model. Like the new Sentinel, it could be an ideal start for an Irish shunting layout. Stick to 32mm gauge and only a repaint required, maybe. Better still if it can easily be regauged...

[NIR]

Wikipedia tells me there was a mansion called Rocksavage in Cheshire, England that came into the possession of the Earls of Barrymore, who were from Carrigtohill, Cork...

Edited April 10, 2020 by NIR

[NIR]

9 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Must have a closer look at this, to compare with the 7mm RTR model. Like the new Sentinel, it could be an ideal start for an Irish shunting layout. Stick to 32mm gauge and only a repaint required, maybe. Better still if it can easily be regauged...

Looks a lot like the Manning Wardle locos of the ironstone railways of Northamptonshire so maybe there is a kit out there.

Edited April 10, 2020 by NIR

[Galteemore]

Minerva do an RTR one, as David says. I was going to buy one for my UK light railway until I was persuaded into 36.75mm! Slaters do a kit. 

 

https://www.minervamodelrailways.co.uk/product/manning-wardle-k-class-0-6-0/

Edited April 10, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

Light railways are always nice.

If I ever get a OO gauge layout done a model of manor street may apear on this form

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

The area to the west of the Loco sidings is labelled Rocksavage on the 25" 1888-1913 Map, Rockborough House stood in the Gas Works site to the east and on the west again there was a lunatic Asylum on the 1837 pre-railway map which later became a hospital so it might have been a not so polite term for the Institution.

Here is 470 ca 1950  

Brilliant, Ernie, there’s an explanation for that!

Yes, I would suspect it could have been an “unofficial” name! 

[jhb171achill]

I had always wondered (

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

Must have a closer look at this, to compare with the 7mm RTR model. Like the new Sentinel, it could be an ideal start for an Irish shunting layout. Stick to 32mm gauge and only a repaint required, maybe. Better still if it can easily be regauged...

It’s a perfect beast for a shunting layout. I’d be extremely tempted myself if there’s a kit of something similar out there.

Given it’s “industrial” origin, and the position of the wheels vis a vis the loading gauge dimensions, I often wondered if (like a number of Irish “industrials”), it was an off-the-shelf British engine re-gauged.

[Irishswissernie]

I have a Casserley negative of 299 on Flickr. Built by Hunslet  WN 557/1892 withdrawn 1957 supplied to Falkner for construction of the Kenmare branch and later sold to the Tralee & Fenit Pier & Harbour Co. acquired by the WL&WR when the Fenit branch was absorbed and then to GS&WR. Looks like a standard Hunslet industrial tank. Info from Locos of the GSR I've just seen what this book is supposedly going for; well it was £1221-71 yesterday but there is a copy on Amazon today fro £95 if you are quick.

 

[Galteemore]

Roger of Alphagraphix used to make a kit of this I think as part of his CBSC selection. Not sure it’s in his current range though. The wheels do look rather Manning Wardle.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Galteemore

[WRENNEIRE]

Just now, Galteemore said:

Roger of Alphagraphix used to make a kit of this I think as part of his CBSC selection. Not sure it’s in his current range though.

Roger that Galtee.....
Would Roger anything atm, going stir crazy what with the Stations of the Cross being cancelled and all

[jhb171achill]

Wonder what happened the plates off it?

Looking at Senior's picture and the 1957 one.... it seems to have had sheets of corrugated iron as shelter for crews earlier on, but by 1957 it has a single light steel sheet..... The winds in West Kerry out on Fenit Pier on a winter night would be vicious, indeed.

[Galteemore]

29 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Roger that Galtee.....
Would Roger anything atm, going stir crazy what with the Stations of the Cross being cancelled and all

You could always try some rivet counting....here’s one to get you started 

[Garfield]

Going off topic slightly, but regarding Fenit... I think I recall seeing somewhere that one of the old self-propelling steam crane that worked out on the pier at the end of the line had been preserved after withdrawal and was plinthed on the entrance to the village. Am I imagining things? If not, does anyone know what happened to it?

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

You could always try some rivet counting....here’s one to get you started 

OK, I've counted. I think it's "1".....

.......can't wait for the next one!!!!  :-)  :-)  

 

Hmmmm....cabin fever......

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Garfield said:

Going off topic slightly, but regarding Fenit... I think I recall seeing somewhere that one of the old self-propelling steam crane that worked out on the pier at the end of the line had been preserved after withdrawal and was plinthed on the entrance to the village. Am I imagining things? If not, does anyone know what happened to it?

I'm unaware of that, Garfield, but pictures of all three when working can be seen in "Rails Through North Kerry", page3 112-4. On P112, one is in steam. I am unsure of whether the other two were still in working order at that time.

On a related note, several Belfast Dock steam cranes survive. There were, I think, three in Kelly's Coal Yard, where the GNR, NCC and BCDR used to get their coal from. At least two survive, and an inspection of them found at least one to be in reasonably mechanical order about twenty years ago. Very much restorable....

[jhb171achill]

MORE LOCOMOTIVES FROM WEST CORK

These were also taken in the late 1930s, again at “Rocksavage”. 
 

495 had started life as a private-owner industrial, too, at Allman’s Distillery in Bandon. Despite coming into GSR stock, she remained in her maker’s “shop shelf” lined dark green until scrapping, a highly unusual exception to the universal grey.

The GSR numberplate is non-standard in pattern. I suspect it was locally cast. I doubt if it ever left Cork - a visit, ever, to Inchicore or Limerick would have seen it sheep-dipped in grey paint, for sure.

GSWR No. 37 was a regular in West Cork for a number of years, as were several others of the class. They acquitted themselves very well on the main line to Skibbereen, as well as elsewhere.

A steam-era layout in West Cork would need one of these and a Bandon tank in the same way that a 1970s layout would need at least one 141 and “A”.

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Wonder what happened the plates off it?

Looking at Senior's picture and the 1957 one.... it seems to have had sheets of corrugated iron as shelter for crews earlier on, but by 1957 it has a single light steel sheet..... The winds in West Kerry out on Fenit Pier on a winter night would be vicious, indeed.

Not sure if this is a close relation but here’s a Hunslet from Alphagraphix ...I think it may simply be his Irish one rebranded to attract the Col Stephens modellers !!

Edited April 10, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

Here's a loco kit which, while not of Hunslet parentage, could be adapted to make a good representation of 299.

http://www.modelrailways.tv/

[Midland Man]

32 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

MORE LOCOMOTIVES FROM WEST CORK

These were also taken in the late 1930s, again at “Rocksavage”. 
 

495 had started life as a private-owner industrial, too, at Allman’s Distillery in Bandon. Despite coming into GSR stock, she remained in her maker’s “shop shelf” lined dark green until scrapping, a highly unusual exception to the universal grey.

The GSR numberplate is non-standard in pattern. I suspect it was locally cast. I doubt if it ever left Cork - a visit, ever, to Inchicore or Limerick would have seen it sheep-dipped in grey paint, for sure.

GSWR No. 37 was a regular in West Cork for a number of years, as were several others of the class. They acquitted themselves very well on the main line to Skibbereen, as well as elsewhere.

A steam-era layout in West Cork would need one of these and a Bandon tank in the same way that a 1970s layout would need at least one 141 and “A”.

495 is a Pecet 0-4-0 saddle tank and is the 51st engine bought or built by the GSR from 1925-1945. It is amazing that they only built that many engines.

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

495 is a Pecet 0-4-0 saddle tank and is the 51st engine bought or built by the GSR from 1925-1945. It is amazing that they only built that many engines.

They had inherited a large fleet in 1925, which was more than adequate for most of the largely rural traffic. With the growth of road traffic and the depression-era of the 1930s (which we are likely to be seeing again, nowadays!), money for large scale replacement wasn't there - it had to be "make do and mend"!

[Midland Man]

Ah yeh

I always find that southern as a point on its own is bad luck for building new engines for example the southern in England only produced 400 engines witch for a British company was terrible as the LNEE produced more engines in a year! So engines like the P class an the terriers lasted up to 90 years in SECR,SR an BR books!

[Galteemore]

Don’t forget, too, MM, that the Southern spent its pennies more on rapidly expanding electrification, thus doing away with the need for large fleets of suburban and medium haul locos.....

[Midland Man]

Ah yes but the hard work had been done by the LBSCR who had started electrifying there lines in 1909 but the Waterloo and city railway had  started in 1899 when they built 5 small DMUs. A lot of the routes on the southerns books had been already electrified by the LBSCR. The southern had only built one class o unit that being for the Portsmouth electrification of 1937. Sure the only new dock engines the southern ever got were the USA tanks from after the war as the antique B4s,E2s and E4s had been run to the ground and were only been used as the was no alternative. Sure the southern had stuff like a Drummond 0-4-0 tanks and even aN ex LSWR 0298 tank 2-4-0  on there books whitch go back to the 1870s and were only used on China clay branches as they had nothing else. If you have ever heard the real class of Thomas the tank engine (E4) you would know that they were just pure sh#t and you are right. They were meant to be used for suburban surfaces but could not pull 5 medium coaches! Well these engines lasted until 1963-65. The only reason was because  the southern did not put the money in the right places!

[Galteemore]

Some interesting points, MM. Don’t forget too, that the LBSC electrification was a different system - overhead. The Southern Electric was all 3rd rail.

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Some interesting points, MM. Don’t forget too, that the LBSC electrification was a different system - overhead. The Southern Electric was all 3rd rail.

 

22 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Ah yes but the hard work had been done by the LBSCR who had started electrifying there lines in 1909 but the Waterloo and city railway had  started in 1899 when they built 5 small DMUs. A lot of the routes on the southerns books had been already electrified by the LBSCR. The southern had only built one class o unit that being for the Portsmouth electrification of 1937. Sure the only new dock engines the southern ever got were the USA tanks from after the war as the antique B4s,E2s and E4s had been run to the ground and were only been used as the was no alternative. Sure the southern had stuff like a Drummond 0-4-0 tanks and even aN ex LSWR 0298 tank 2-4-0  on there books whitch go back to the 1870s and were only used on China clay branches as they had nothing else. If you have ever heard the real class of Thomas the tank engine (E4) you would know that they were just pure sh#t and you are right. They were meant to be used for suburban surfaces but could not pull 5 medium coaches! Well these engines lasted until 1963-65. The only reason was because  the southern did not put the money in the right places!

And the LBSC was, of course, just narrow gauge......................................

[Irishswissernie]

47 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

If you have ever heard the real class of Thomas the tank engine (E4) you would know that they were just pure sh#t and you are right. They were meant to be used for suburban surfaces but could not pull 5 medium coaches! Well these engines lasted until 1963-65.

You have got the wrong Class there, Thomas is based on an E2 0-6-0T (E4 were 0-6-2t) They were designed not for passenger work but as shunting and short goods working tanks and after Grouping migrated to Southampton Docks where they lasted until dieselisation.

[Midland Man]

6 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

You have got the wrong Class there, Thomas is based on an E2 0-6-0T (E4 were 0-6-2t) They were designed not for passenger work but as shunting and short goods working tanks and after Grouping migrated to Southampton Docks where they lasted until dieselisation.

Sorry about wrong class. I got mixed up with the class and thanks to clearing that up. The E2s were used for small suburban passenger working due to the fact that they had really sharp breaks meany coapalings would get broken in two many a time 

MM

[leslie10646]

Back to Albert Quay for a moment.

In the 1970s, I watched a load of slide evenings at the IRRS London by Lance King and the venerated gents known to us all as "The GLO". They always referred to the loco area as "Rocksavage" so, regardless of any evidence to the contrary, it'll always be Rocksavage to me.

I'm sure if someone looks up Colm, or Ernie's books on the "Bandon" they'll see it in print?

-------------------------------------

Wrenneire, Sorry you're going GaGa with the lock-up - you should know all about that anyway, if anyone does?

Keep fit during House Arrest like me.

I'm not allowed out of the house as I'm in an "at danger"group. I keep fit running up and down the 25/30 stairs from where I'm sitting (and where I have my modelling tray) to the loft, where the railway is.

Every time I cut something out - I'm up the stairs to see if it fits, then back down again.

Before you ask - it seldom does and as for right angles - don't make me laugh!

Edited April 11, 2020 by leslie10646