What determines a re-run of a model?

[RKX]

3 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Ironroad,

You make some points I agree with from experience. I think retooling an all new 141 would be a complete folly, as the current model is indeed excellent. You certainly wouldnt sell thousands of them to justify the tooling outlay. The 201 made sense as the drive and detail was a quantum leap over Lima. But, for every person happy with the new model, plenty are happy and run the old Lima one still and they just want to play trains. The jump forward with a 141 would be much, much shorter in my personal opinion. Why would you sell the current one to buy the new one? 99% wouldnt, and there are other locos to be made in the meantime which make more sense. 

Regarding detail, your opinion is valid of course, but plenty of people do want that those detail items. When we started this our ethos was to do super detailed quality items, as MM had set the benchmark and these were the models we wanted to create. You may disregard it as "unnecessary" but our ethos to to make accurate scale models (track width aside, nothing we can do about that) so if it's on the real one, it needs to be on our one too. It's not about vanity either, it's about value for money. As production runs are tiny for the Irish market, charging high prices for mediocre models does not offer good value for money. The models would've looked shabby next to existing MM products and customers would dismiss it as "not worth the money". It's about bang for buck. Could robustness be improved? Sure, and we are building that more into future lines, but the detail will remain. These are models, not toys, and that means detail. We want to push things forward, and the reason why Lima, Mainline, Hornby Dublo etc died was because they stood still. The hobby needs to progress, not stand still.

Suggestions are always welcome for new models, and we are working on several new tooling models for IRM which we have not announced yet. I am sure MM has stuff up his sleeve too. We will always be honest and say if something doesnt fly, and we have above. We get people really want something, but the needs to be fiscal reality added to the mix too. The market is also tiny and we have had plenty of comments from people saying "slow down, you're bringing too much out" and then on the other side "I want I want I want" We have to balance between the two to keep viable. There are spoil wagons, weedsprays, A Classes, 121s all coming in the next 6 months. That's on top of kegs, bubbles and plough vans and a ballast hopper run and God knows what MM has planned. Where does another new model fit in?

Finally, we have no desire to manage a crowdfunding initiative. They take up a huge amount of admin time which we just cant spare right now and we are a self financing company. If someone wishes to commission a model from us, we would gladly do that. We have performed this several times in the UK market and offered these services to JM Design when those ideas for two wagons were scoped out. There has been a very public utter catastrophe regarding crowdfunding in the UK that shows how wrong it can go. 

 

a) I really have my doubts tbh based on examples we have experienced and outlined and the lack of stock to run with them currently. You need two plough vans per train, but only one brake van.

b) You'd be looking at €60-70 a pop I reckon (rough estimate) but there are many variables. 

I really do not mean to drag the spirits down, but after 5 years at this we do have the voice of experience at this stage.

Cheers!

Fran

And a very sizable VAT bill when it lands! 

Thanks Fran, 

Yes, 2,000 is a sizeable number to shift. 

Just doing the number, and love to see how things fold together. Too busy in the day job to be your next competition, though. Best to alway stick to what you know.

Yes, the vat is sizeable, but gets refunded. Not bad if the container arrives close to the end of the vat quarter, but a killer if you have to wait almost four months. 

[Warbonnet]

Just now, RKX said:

Thanks Fran, 

Yes, 2,000 is a sizeable number to shift. 

Just doing the number, and love to see how things fold together. Too busy in the day job to be your next competition, though. Best to alway stick to what you know.

Yes, the vat is sizeable, but gets refunded. Not bad if the container arrives close to the end of the vat quarter, but a killer if you have to wait almost four months. 

I know you're mad for the brake vans, but if you ever want to commission one we know a few men who can sort it out for a price!  I reckon commissioning a professional to make an SSM kit up for you would be hell of a lot cheaper though! 

Yes, VAT can sting like that and has to be paid there and then. Invariably the stuff arrives when a new quarter begins for us, every single time! 

Cheers!

Fran

[RKX]

4 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

know you're mad for the brake vans, but if you ever want to commission one we know a few men who can sort it out for a price!  

Ha. Yes, they hold a special place in my heart, from playing on them as a kid (when they were parked, ready for the breakers). I don't want 2,000 of them, though. I appreciate the offer, and maybe take you up on that someday soon. 

And vice versa, if you find shipping form China expensive. 

[Georgeconna]

I'l check that tomorrow, only have US Rates to hand right now, a 20ft is about 300 bucks cheaper than a 40ft from the US.

[RKX]

1 minute ago, Georgeconna said:

I'l check that tomorrow, only have US Rates to hand right now, a 20ft is about 300 bucks cheaper than a 40ft from the US.

The rates I quoted were China (Dalian or Shenzhen) to Ireland. Wouldn't know the US rates from China, but do know when we ship from Mississippi to Ireland, we pay more for the train to the port, than the actual sea cost. 

[mphoey]

i would also like to add that for irm to do lets say the mk1 bsk brake van to run with cravens and the weedsprayer that 2 main different body types were present so which do you do and as they said with 1500 of the plough vans made you would be looking at 3000 mk1 vans to do both varaints and only 4 possible liveries available . So it would be a risky outlay if you take one style only the weedsprayer one you have 1500 with 500 weedsprayers 500 original livery and 500 later livery the rpsi has both types but 3185 is out of service at the moment. so a lot of money from irm for 500 buyers buying one each of each type would it sell?

[Georgeconna]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:24 PM, RKX said:

East Coast China? 

Port to Port approx 2K these days  , add on locals delivery clearance etc.

[connollystn]

No point in doing re-runs of locomotive models which were first produced over 10 years ago. By today's standards they are classed as vintage and their technology is out-dated. There's plenty to look forward to with the forthcoming releases of the highly anticipated 121 and A Class locomotives.

[murphaph]

I completely missed the baby GMs so I would welcome the opportunity to buy a few in IR/IE liveries. What is different between a model produced today and then? 

[murrayec]

4 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I completely missed the baby GMs so I would welcome the opportunity to buy a few in IR/IE liveries. What is different between a model produced today and then? 

@WRENNEIRE is the man to talk to, the MM 141s are up here with today's models and their the only 141s available!

Eoin

[DiveController]

On 7/18/2020 at 3:50 PM, murphaph said:

I completely missed the baby GMs so I would welcome the opportunity to buy a few in IR/IE liveries. What is different between a model produced today and then? 

The MM 141 & 181 classes were turned out over a decade ago with good detailing and excellent running (particularly slow running characteristics).

By comparison with the some models in the last couple of years, there may be a few differences.

They do come DCC ready but not sound ready insofar as they do not have an inbuilt speaker which functions as soon as a compatible sound chip is installed. A sugar cube speaker seems to function best and can be wired in although it is not PnP.

They have directional marker/running lights and headlights which change automatically with the direction of travel but do not have cab lighting like the MM071 class (iirc). The rear lights of a lead loco or the front lights of a trailing loco can be turned off if two are running in consist but the switches are somewhat inaccessible as they inside the body shell versus the larger 071 class which followed where they were located underneath the loco and could be switched with a fingernail or small screwdriver blade.

To access the interior the 141/181 body shell has to be removed from the chassis which means very carefully detaching the handrails along the loco sides from the cabs, and prizing the body off which can be slightly tricky. It comes apart as the main body with one cab as one piece and the other cab as a second piece. When replaced, some found that the cab did not fit back as tightly to the chassis as factory fitted and had a tiny (<1mm) gap which was a minor cosmetic issue. In short, it's not a matter of deciding to link two locos up for a quick spin and then detach the consist again.

When new, they usually came with a 'bag of bits' which included horns, skirt (to be 'blown up', or just fitted where the coupler is at the 'non functional' end) and various hoses. These are fitted by the user as needed and enhance the look of the loco but may be missing when purchased secondhand. One of the members did a nice tutorial on how to fit the front skirt and then have the coupler come through it but the photos have disappeared from the site when Photobucket withdrew support from linking to other websites.

More recent offerings are often sound compatible out of the box, with better access to switches e.g. through a roof panel so there is not need to remove the body shell, have cab lighting and maybe some additional cosmetic nuances.

With all that being said most will agree that there are VERY fine locos. If you cannot acquire what you need from Dave then take solace in the upcoming MM 121 which seem to have all the perks

Edited August 27, 2020 by DiveController

[murphaph]

That's a fine detailed response. Thanks for taking the time to write that out. It seems the main differences are internal and luckily I have plenty of experience with a soldering iron so these issues would not concern me personally but I can understand some buyers would be put off by these drawbacks compared to later models.

I already have a pre-order in for the 121s

[Noel]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:31 PM, RKX said:

These are models, not toys, and that means detail. We want to push things forward

 

[RKX]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:36 PM, Warbonnet said:

I know you're mad for the brake vans, but if you ever want to commission one we know a few men who can sort it out for a price!  I reckon commissioning a professional to make an SSM kit up for you would be hell of a lot cheaper though! 

Yes, VAT can sting like that and has to be paid there and then. Invariably the stuff arrives when a new quarter begins for us, every single time! 

Cheers!

Fran

Fran, semi-off topic - do you design the mould (plates) or the factory? Is the product design just provided and the factory take it from there? I need to get a plastic "box" made up, so the info would be helpful. Thanks. 

[BosKonay]

56 minutes ago, RKX said:

Fran, semi-off topic - do you design the mould (plates) or the factory? Is the product design just provided and the factory take it from there? I need to get a plastic "box" made up, so the info would be helpful. Thanks. 

We design the models and then work with the factory to layout the moulds as efficiently as possible based on material needed and parts while the factory resolve any flow requirements using their software. We offer commissions if you need something produced. 

[RKX]

2 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We design the models and then work with the factory to layout the moulds as efficiently as possible based on material needed and parts while the factory resolve any flow requirements using their software. We offer commissions if you need something produced. 

I might just take you up on that, BosKonay - if you can get in touch, I'd appreciate it (we can talk offline, and see what develops. IRM will have my email, being a customer). Thanks. 

[DJ Dangerous]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:58 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

I mentioned this before people!
The cost of a re run would be prohibitive because of the numbers involved
There are 18 various models with a run of 504 of each, over 9000 all told
this is just about the minimum run that could be made in order for MM to make a few bob
China at the moment wants bigger runs, so to do a run of 2000, your model would be costing in the €250 - €300 bracket or more depending on whether they would even entertain making the model or not

Not going to happen!

So the dream of an 071 re-run with 141/181 quality running and post-2015 variants available becomes a living nightmare, knowing that it'll never happen?

[Noel]

46 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So the dream of an 071 re-run with 141/181 quality running and post-2015 variants available becomes a living nightmare, knowing that it'll never happen?

What nightmare problems indeed we have in the first world.  Other option is to commission a respray of an orange livery 071 into freight grey, or NIR blue. While the 141/181 running quality has never been equaled by any manufacturer, the 071s are not bad, just can't go quite as slow as 141s. The motor characteristics of a decoder on DCC can also have a huge impact on how smooth a loco can run at ultra low speed.

Nothing wrong with 071 in this clip smooth as a ball bearing made in Schweinfurt before it was hit

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Noel

[DJ Dangerous]

9 minutes ago, Noel said:

What nightmare problems indeed we have in the first world.  Other option is to commission a respray of an orange livery 071 into freight grey, or NIR blue. While the 141/181 running quality has never been equaled by any manufacturer, the 071s are not bad, just can't go quite as slow as 141s. The motor characteristics of a decoder on DCC can also have a huge impact on how smooth a loco can run at ultra low speed.

Nothing wrong with 071 in this clip smooth as a ball bearing made in Schweinfurt before it was hit

 

First world problems indeed, but without dreams, what's the point?

I assume that your layout is DCC, rather than DC.

On DC, the 141/181's are the smoothest, most responsive locos that I have ever seen, hence the desire to see that performance in the next batch of 071's.

[Noel]

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

First world problems indeed, but without dreams, what's the point?

I assume that your layout is DCC, rather than DC.

On DC, the 141/181's are the smoothest, most responsive locos that I have ever seen, hence the desire to see that performance in the next batch of 071's.

Agree 100%. That was the first thing that struck me when I accidentally discovered Bachmann/MM locos on sale at Malahide Castle back in 2007. Bought 182 on the spot, brought it home and popped it on the layout which as still DC then. Could not believe the running quality. Was staggered at its precision running. Prototypical driving characteristics are as important to me as the visual look of a model, no use being ultra scale if a model doesn't run at scale speeds and scale acceleration and braking speeds. The 141/181s are fab at simulating heavy trains starting off and also stopping. None of this fisher price toy starting off at scale speeds of 25mph business.  Hoping 121 is following in the running tracks of the Bachmann/MM 141/181s and may probable exceed it in a number of areas.

[DJ Dangerous]

6 minutes ago, Noel said:

Agree 100%. That was the first thing that struck me when I accidentally discovered Bachmann/MM locos on sale at Malahide Castle back in 2007. Bought 182 on the spot, brought it home and popped it on the layout which as still DC then. Could not believe the running quality. Was staggered at its precision running. Prototypical driving characteristics are as important to me as the visual look of a model, no use being ultra scale if a model doesn't run at scale speeds and scale acceleration and braking speeds. The 141/181s are fab at simulating heavy trains starting off and also stopping. None of this fisher price toy starting off at scale speeds of 25mph business.  Hoping 121 is following in the running tracks of the Bachmann/MM 141/181s and may probable exceed it in a number of areas.

The first time I placed a 141 on the track, a second-hand find from Hattons, it started rolling away itself, as I hadn't set the controller exactly at Zero. It was just wow.

[DiveController]

9 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

The first time I placed a 141 on the track, it started rolling away itself, as I hadn't set the controller exactly at Zero. It was just wow.

Ah, jeez! You need to set the brake. There has been the occasional engineer over the years who thought exactly that (with dire consequences in same cases)

[irishthump]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 2:41 AM, DiveController said:

 

 One of the members did a nice tutorial on how to fit the front skirt and then have the coupler come through it but the photos have disappeared from the site when Photobucket withdrew support from linking to other websites.

 

The original conversion was done by another member whose photos are gone, but I posted photos of a similar conversion on my workbench thread.

 

[connollystn]

So! What actually determines a re-run of a model?

[WRENNEIRE]

Economics!

[connollystn]

Thanks Wrenneire, thought we'd never get to the bottom of this. THREAD CLOSED!

[murphaph]

The good thing is that the economics can change if the market expands. I hope that the lads, through Accurascale, can bring more GB based modelers "into the Irish fold". It's not impossible. When I first came to Germany you could forget about getting Cheddar cheese or Irish beef here, no chance. Now these things are available in my local supermarket as stock items, thanks to marketing of course but also thanks to these products being of good quality. Irish companies have successfully pushed into this huge market. IRM can do the same in GB (and beyond hopefully) and more power to them if they can. Even here in Germany there are a select few 00 gauge modelers with nothing but high praise for the RTR products that have come out of Ireland in the last decade or so, starting with Paddy Murphy of course and more recently IRM. That's high praise as these lads are used to high quality RTR models from the established German manufacturers. PM and the IRM lads should be very proud of themselves (but not rest on their laurels until I can walk into my local German model retailer and buy a RTR model of the most obscure CIE wagon that ever there was lol).