Would you model in 21mm if RTR track and models were readily available?

[David Holman]

Now there's a good thought!

[Sleeper]

.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Sleeper

[Jonathan_RK]

If I could add my thoughts....short answer - yes I would consider it, because I don't have a permanent layout at the moment and would fall into the category of speculative new project developer. I have invested (modestly if I may say so) in a small fleet of IRM A Class locos and decoders, and a few MM B class (121 and 181). I confess to owning just one MM Craven which unfortunately is not readily convertible to 21mm, and perhaps that is something for the trade to note if planning on future production. I suppose there is a suggestion (in the light of experience) that a standard approach could be adopted by manufacturers, to accommodate convenient conversion to 21mm, or to manufacture adaptable product to accommodate the 21mm market as well as the 16.5mm market.

I've experimented with producing 21mm track work using 3D printing technology, and the comparison with commercially availble "off the shelf" HO 16.5mm gauge trackwork is obvious to see. Perhaps a modest layout with hand built track work and a few points would be enough to satisfy any creative urge that might come upon me in the future. Even better if 21mm track work was available RTR. Seems more equitable than the status quo. 

[Mayner]

Crude as hell I normally used flatbottom rail soldered to copperclad sleepers to represent flatbottom jointed track and bullheard rail with abs plastic chairs and sleepers for bullhead.

 

I dropped a clanger of spacing the Yard tracks too close to the running line and struggled with getting double slip points to work!

The main weakness was that I struggled to build a workable 21mm gauge layout within a 7'6" x1'6" space with 1:6 points, the same space is now occupied by a OO gauge Timesaver shunting layout which uses Peco small radius points and a run round loop and fiddle yard long enough for a Bo Bo diesel and 4-5 wagons.

The MM B141 runs on Ultrascale EM profile wheels, stock mixture of modified OO wagon kits on Gibson wagon wheels on extended axles.

If I was starting out again I would probably work to Double O Gauge Society Intermediate rather than EM standards, allowing stock IRM/MM/Bachmann wheels to be used, the increased OO running clearances potentially allow main line locos and stock to run through smaller radius curve/crossing angle than using EM or P4 standards

 

 

[mfowler55]

My goal in railway modeling is to achieve a visually realistic representation of the prototype, within reasonable - and somewhat flexible - constraints of time and cost. As a newcomer to Irish prototype modeling, the 20% or so gauge compromise baked into OO scale/1600mm gauge has come as a disconcerting surprise, to say the least.

Modelers ARE a handy and resourceful lot, but it seems good business for model railroad manufacturers to work to increase the appeal of the hobby. I understand the need for making the business case - but that case was been made years ago with the decision to serve the limited market of Irish prototype modelers.

I will enthusiastically support 21mm RTR products. A workable trackwork selection could be as basic as #4, #6 and wye points, 1-metre flex-track sticks and perhaps 60- and 90-degree 'X' crossovers.

Rolling stock is relatively simple. We would need RTR or user-convertible 21mm trucks (bogies?), axle and wheelsets.

21mm motive power would be more of a problem. Steam locomotive cylinders, crossheads and guides, linkages and valve gear would require redesign and retooling. Diesels need regauged power trucks. Chassis clearances and fitting need to be checked. Still, I should think the limited number of Irish prototypes works in favor of feasibility.

I encourage manufacturers to support OO scale modeling that is accurately gauged to represent the characterful Irish broad gauge. I will back those efforts by purchasing their models in the future.

 

[Horsetan]

20 hours ago, mfowler55 said:

....limited number of Irish prototypes works in favor of feasibility......

I'm not sure there were a limited number of prototypes. If Irish locomotive history tells us anything, it is that there were a great many locomotive classes, albeit many (most?) only containing single figures.

[Flying Snail]

20 hours ago, mfowler55 said:

Rolling stock is relatively simple. We would need RTR or user-convertible 21mm trucks (bogies?), axle and wheelsets.

21mm motive power would be more of a problem. Steam locomotive cylinders, crossheads and guides, linkages and valve gear would require redesign and retooling. Diesels need regauged power trucks. Chassis clearances and fitting need to be checked. Still, I should think the limited number of Irish prototypes works in favor of feasibility.

 

Welcome to the site @mfowler55

I think you've hit the nail on the head about adapting OO rolling stock and locomotives. As you've said, adapting a OO steam locomotive for 21mm is non-trivial, but it is much simpler for diesels and rolling stock. As I understand it, IRM's A-class and many of their rolling stock items have been designed to be readily adapted to 21mm by modellers. 

[Mayner]

Apart from OO Works J15 no rtr manufacturer currently produces a rtr model of an Irish steam loco, Murphy Models formerly released Irish repaints of two Bachmann OO gauge British outline locos an LMS Jinty 0-6-0T and a Southern Railway N Class 2-6-0 loco. 

I think one of the directors of Irish Railway Models-Accurascale explained that it was not practicable to produce its GWR/BR Manor locomotive as a rtr EM gauge model (closer to 4'8"½ gauge than OO) due to the manufacturing tolerances of the materials used.  A P4 or EM gauge modeller would need to replace the existing chassis with a sheet metal chassis and replace the plastic injection moulded splashers with sheet metal as it was not practicable to achieve sufficient running clearace between wheels, cylinders and splashers in P4 or EM with a plastic injection moulded or dies cast body.

In my experience problem becomes more acute in 21mm gauge where its challenging to achieve sufficient clearance between wheels and splashers even when using sheetmetal  (brass or nickel silver) construction unless you work to P4 standards with close to prototypical wheel standards.  

 

 

[DiveController]

If I understood correctly there is rumor of a steam offering from IRM. This will tell you all you need to know about the future of modeling 21mm

On 7/10/2023 at 1:03 PM, mfowler55 said:

My goal in railway modeling is to achieve a visually realistic representation of the prototype, within reasonable - and somewhat flexible - constraints of time and cost. As a newcomer to Irish prototype modeling, the 20% or so gauge compromise baked into OO scale/1600mm gauge has come as a disconcerting surprise, to say the least.

Modelers ARE a handy and resourceful lot, but it seems good business for model railroad manufacturers to work to increase the appeal of the hobby. I understand the need for making the business case - but that case was been made years ago with the decision to serve the limited market of Irish prototype modelers.

I will enthusiastically support 21mm RTR products. A workable trackwork selection could be as basic as #4, #6 and wye points, 1-metre flex-track sticks and perhaps 60- and 90-degree 'X' crossovers.

Rolling stock is relatively simple. We would need RTR or user-convertible 21mm trucks (bogies?), axle and wheelsets.

21mm motive power would be more of a problem. Steam locomotive cylinders, crossheads and guides, linkages and valve gear would require redesign and retooling. Diesels need regauged power trucks. Chassis clearances and fitting need to be checked. Still, I should think the limited number of Irish prototypes works in favor of feasibility.

I encourage manufacturers to support OO scale modeling that is accurately gauged to represent the characterful Irish broad gauge. I will back those efforts by purchasing their models in the future.

 

.

[WRENNEIRE]

Found recently in the vaults
I am not sure if it is prototypical? 
The writing says "Castleblaney PW Car No 8177
I will upload some stunning steam locos over the next couple of days 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Wow! New one to me. Not beyond the bounds of possibility.... Dundalk home made job, or even Clones?

[WRENNEIRE]

A little teaser

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DiveController]

The next release from IRM in O gauge?

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Found recently in the vaults
I am not sure if it is prototypical? 
The writing says "Castleblaney PW Car No 8177
I will upload some stunning steam locos over the next couple of days 

 

 

 

 GNR "Ford Platelayers Trolley" set of scratchbuilders parts available from Worsley Works for several years.

Alan sent me a photo of the fret but I never bought one!

The S looks like its built from a SSM kit, I built a couple! Clearances between splashers, coupling rods and crank pins are minimal on these locos in 21mm gauge

[WRENNEIRE]

Cheers John, good to know about the fret
Loco is a SSM kit, built in early 2000
Not sure who the builder was, but he did a fine job

[WRENNEIRE]

Bit of Black this morning

 

 

 

 

[WRENNEIRE]

And a bit of Blue

Slieve Gullion

 

 

 

[Patrick Davey]

Nnnnnnnnnnnice

[WRENNEIRE]

Some more Black (J15)

 

 

 

 

 

[Mayner]

Snap! Three GNR 21mm gauge locos assembled from TMD (Terry McDermott) kits 1996-2002.

Locos probably last run on MRSI Loughrea layout during exhibition early 2000s, all three locos require repair and repaint  after 20 odd years in storage/on display. One kit bought new from Terry before Paul Greene acquired the business, the remaining locos picked up as part of a job lot of part built TMD kits at a UK exhibition. 

174 Caruntuhill possibly the last S Class outshopped by Dundalk in lined blue after the CIE takeover.

An S masquerading as Qs 132. Loco is due a strip down and re-paint following damage in storage.  Grey overspray on boiler and running board following attempt to clean up smokebox.

SG awaiting lettering and numerals following re-paint

 

 

 

[Galteemore]

Very nice John: works well as a Q with high boiler pitch and slightly more exiguous frames. 

[WRENNEIRE]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

Snap! Three GNR 21mm gauge locos assembled from TMD (Terry McDermott) kits 1996-2002.

Locos probably last run on MRSI Loughrea layout during exhibition early 2000s, all three locos require repair and repaint  after 20 odd years in storage/on display. One kit bought new from Terry before Paul Greene acquired the business, the remaining locos picked up as part of a job lot of part built TMD kits at a UK exhibition. 

Funny you should mention Loughrea John
We are currently reviving Dundalk works for our upcoming show in Mount Temple school this October
We then hope to revive Loughrea, and that is the main reason I bought this collection of 21mm
I also picked up some SSM Coaches and assorted wagons
Got my hands on some track also so a bit of work in the offing!
Cant wait to see them running

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Very nice John: works well as a Q with high boiler pitch and slightly more EXIQUOUS frames. 

That was a word that turned up frequently in St Declans CBS Cabra!

[WRENNEIRE]

Allez les Verte!

 

 

 

 

 

[David Holman]

Beating the French at rugby is akin to an Ashes win in cricket, but rolling them over on their own patch is very special. The other four nations should be very afraid.

Nice models everyone!

[Horsetan]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:13 AM, WRENNEIRE said:

Some more Black (J15)

 

 

 

 

 

Ultrascale wheels on this one - they're very distinctive.

[WRENNEIRE]

Couple of coaches this morning troops
GSR Main Line, Comp & 3rd

 

 

 

 

 

[Mayner]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:13 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

Some more Black (J15)

 

 

Quite a collection Dave.

I just realised I have a model of 191 I assembled 30 years ago from the TMD J15 kit.

I bought a J15 and an S Class kit from Terry McDermott in the early 90s, loco won a prize kit built loco category Milton Keynes Model Railway Club. The TMJ J15 was all brass, I thinned the coupling rods to represent unpainted steel, tender axlebox castings were glued on at the time I hadn't tried soldering whitemetal.

There have been a number of changes in the long production life of the kit 1985-date? The original TMD kit was etched in brass (body and chassis) with turned brass frame spacers, chimney and dome, but no castings, later versions of the TMD kit included whitemetal chimney, dome castings and plastic spring/axlebox castings.  The body and chassis of the SSM (Paul Greene) version of the kit was etched in nickel silver with a comprehensive set of whitemetal castings.

The small GNR 0-6-0 57 was originally produced by Northstar Design (Adrian Rowland) who also produced 7 and 4mm versions of a GNR PP 4-4-0 and a 10mm Scale Tralee and Dingle 2-6-0 which passed on to SSM.

There was a transition period between TMD and Studio Scale Models. SSM marketing and selling the GNR 20T Goods Brake while TMD continued to sell its existing stock of Irish loco kits. The GNR compound was initially marketed and sold by TMD after SSM had taken over the marketing and sales of earlier TMD kits (The TMD Compound Kit included the tender from the SSM (exTMD) GNR S Class)

The GSR Bredin Coaches may initially have been marketed and sold by TMD before being incorporated in to the SSM range.  

[David Holman]

Terry and Adrian's kits were beautifully drawn and (because of the time) am assuming they were done by hand, not CAD. Either way, the etches are superb, with the parts fitting together as well as any locos I've made - and the list is approaching 100 in both 4 and 7mm scales. Terry enlarged his 101 etches to 7mm scale for Richard Chown in 1998, a kit he never built, but which I acquired in 2018. That too went together really well, with minimal filler required  - a true mark of a quality kit in my experience.

[TimO]

@WRENNEIRE  Beautiful models. Are they 21mm and are they motorised?

If so, do you know when they last ran?

Are there any couplings fitted? 
If they are suitable it would great to see them running.

 

[WRENNEIRE]

Jasus Tim, I thought you went to college?
Its a 21mm thread.............
All motorised and 3 link couplings fitted
Putting some 21mm track together in the next week or so so should have them running
AFAIK they never ran, they were displayed only

[WRENNEIRE]

Some other rolling stock this morning

[leslie10646]

17 hours ago, David Holman said:

Terry and Adrian's kits were beautifully drawn and (because of the time) am assuming they were done by hand, not CAD. Either way, the etches are superb, with the parts fitting together as well as any locos I've made - and the list is approaching 100 in both 4 and 7mm scales. Terry enlarged his 101 etches to 7mm scale for Richard Chown in 1998, a kit he never built, but which I acquired in 2018. That too went together really well, with minimal filler required  - a true mark of a quality kit in my experience.

I can only report that Daniel Wu, my builder in Hong Kong, would have agreed 100% with David's views. He had built a lot of DJH kits but said that the TMD ones went together much better than them. I have much to thank Terry (and Daniel) for, as they got the Irish Ball rolling for me - two blue S Class and a black one, plus a SG during my time in HK. Now over a dozen GN locos! I've four of Adrian's locos as well, including one built by him.

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Some other rolling stock this morning

Quite a treasure trove!

The UT ex-GNR Bread/Parcels Van is something of a rarity a Jeremy Suter kit produced during the late 90s early 2000s.

Jeremy produced a series of excellent limited run Irish wagon kits including the UTA-ex GN Parcel Van, GN Standard covered wagon, GN & NCC versions of the Bread Container wagons used in Northern Ireland and an MGWR Coal Wagon.

TMD Kits. The TMD J15 kit released 1986 was quite advanced for etched kits of the era with built-in jigs to assist the assembly of the footplate valence assembly  a distinctive feature of Class and a tender with half etched rivet detail and slot and tab assembly to simplify assembly. The main weak point in the earlier kits like the J15, GNR T and MGWR tank was that the classis was etched in the same thickness of brass as the body. Later kits including the GNR S and SG were supplied with chassis in nickel silver and upgraded nickel silver chassis supplied with the GNR T (4-4-2T) and MGWR Tank. 

Later kits including the GN SG, GSR 800 Class, Bandon Tank, GNR, GSWR and GSR coaches appear to have been designed by the late Eamonn Kearney and were designed as a number of sub assemblies to simplify assembly and painting. The coach bodies were designed to bolt together with pre-formed roofs, were effectively self jigging with minimal requirement for solder.

SSM Whitemetal Wagon Kits. A number of high quality whitemetal wagon kits were added while the business was under Paul Greene's management including the wooden underframed version of the Standard Irish Open wagon used by the GNR and by the majority of the Southern Companies from the WW1 era onwards and the GSWR and MGWR versions of the "Standard Irish Covered Wagon" (soft topped convertible)

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

....The UT ex-GNR Bread/Parcels Van is something of a rarity a Jeremy Suter kit produced during the late 90s early 2000s.

Jeremy produced a series of excellent limited run Irish wagon kits including the UTA-ex GN Parcel Van, GN Standard covered wagon, GN & NCC versions of the Bread Container wagons used in Northern Ireland and an MGWR Coal Wagon.....

Very occasionally these reappear on eBay. Values fortunately not high because minority interest.

[TimO]

@WRENNEIRE More fabulous models. If your test runs look good and if gauging trials were satisfactory, it would be good to run-in these locos along the embankment and over the Egyptian arch. Then after topping up coal and water they could be scheduled for a run with the Down Enterprise….