E401 class shunter query

[PeadarC]

Recently I came across a photo of an E401 class without the exhaust silencer cowl on the bonnet. 

I thought initially that it was an E421 class but it was definitely an E401 (E412 if I recall correctly.

Can anyone advise please if there were E401s without the cowl on the bonnet?

Regards, Peadar

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, PeadarC said:

Recently I came across a photo of an E401 class without the exhaust silencer cowl on the bonnet. 

I thought initially that it was an E421 class but it was definitely an E401 (E412 if I recall correctly.

Can anyone advise please if there were E401s without the cowl on the bonnet?

Regards, Peadar

Yes - there were, or was; I am unsure of the details. At least one was like that, though they were all originally WITH them. The way to tell was by the windows, if no other details (e.g. the numbers!) are visible in a picture, as with the difference between G601 and G611 classes.

[PeadarC]

Thanks

 

[Garfield]

It seems a few ended up without exhaust cowls at one point or another, although I'm unsure whether this was temporary or not. I've seen a few photos of them in this condition but it's very much a 'lesser spotted' feature.

[Mayner]

Dan Renehan a CIE driver wrote a series on papers on CIE diesels including the E401 & 421 Classes in the IRRS journal during the 1980s.

The majority of the operational E401s lost their exhaust cowl and silencer as a result of an exhaust fire when one of the class was working as Inchacore Works Pilot (Sambo).

The class were gradually withdrawn in the late 70s/early 80s though apparently the the last operational loco  possibly E401 retained her silencer and cowl.

The E401s were basically worn out after years on heavy duties working Heuston-North Wall transfer freights. Some E421 originally based at Connolly were transferred to Heuston to undertake coaching pilot duties.

According Locos and Stock of CIE & NIR  (Doyle & Hirsch) E401,411,415,417 and 419 were withdrawn by 1979

[Killian Keane]

E410 was the first diesel on the Fenit branch I'm told

[jhb171achill]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

Dan Renehan a CIE driver wrote a series on papers on CIE diesels including the E401 & 421 Classes in the IRRS journal during the 1980s.

The majority of the operational E401s lost their exhaust cowl and silencer as a result of an exhaust fire when one of the class was working as Inchacore Works Pilot (Sambo).

The class were gradually withdrawn in the late 70s/early 80s though apparently the the last operational loco  possibly E401 retained her silencer and cowl.

The E401s were basically worn out after years on heavy duties working Heuston-North Wall transfer freights. Some E421 originally based at Connolly were transferred to Heuston to undertake coaching pilot duties.

According Locos and Stock of CIE & NIR  (Doyle & Hirsch) E401,411,415,417 and 419 were withdrawn by 1979

I think in later days while there were still 401s “on the books”, as it were, they saw little use. I would g YG ave been bumbling about Heuston station from 1976 onwards, and Connolly long before that - yet I have no recollection of ever seeing a single one in use even then, at either place. Always 421s.

Now, I am aware that a few WERE in use at that time; my point is simply that they didn’t feature as much as their numbers might suggest.

There was a line of them withdrawn in Inchicore - all with cowls.

[Westcorkrailway]

14 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

E410 was the first diesel on the Fenit branch I'm told

I (think) these were given a trial on thecourtmacsherry line However these locos were always more suited to cork city railway work 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Westcorkrailway

[connollystn]

If my memory serves me well I do recall seeing a photograph in a national newspaper of an E401 class hauling a Bell Liner from Waterford.

[patrick]

The last one I saw in operation was in Limerick in 1980 or 81. I believe it was the wagon works pilot.

[MD220]

How far travelled were the E class in service? I know Limerick had one and I think Cork also. Did an E ever make it to the west? Galway, Sligo or Westport ( apart from 428 in preservation)?

What about north of Dublin to Drogheda or Dundalk? 

[Haulier]

I think they were tried on the Harcourt Street road just before closure

[Haulier]

Also, of course, worked Shelton Abbey in 1970's  - used to come up to Canal Street at  a good clip between Wicklow - Greystoneson a Saturday afternoon for maintainence - back down early Monday

[connollystn]

@ Killian Keane - Meant to say this as part of my earlier post but, despite my age [auld git], that is the first image of the Class 401 I've seen nose first. Thanks for posting that photograph.

[PeadarC]

On 7/11/2021 at 11:23 AM, jhb171achill said:

I think in later days while there were still 401s “on the books”, as it were, they saw little use. I would g YG ave been bumbling about Heuston station from 1976 onwards, and Connolly long before that - yet I have no recollection of ever seeing a single one in use even then, at either place. Always 421s.

Now, I am aware that a few WERE in use at that time; my point is simply that they didn’t feature as much as their numbers might suggest.

There was a line of them withdrawn in Inchicore - all with cowls.

Were they ever used to assist/push a fully loaded loco hauled train up the gradient out of Heuston? I have a memory of being told that they did?

[jhb171achill]

51 minutes ago, PeadarC said:

Were they ever used to assist/push a fully loaded loco hauled train up the gradient out of Heuston? I have a memory of being told that they did?

I'm not sure, PeadarC - but I certainly wouldn't rule it out!

[connollystn]

I'm surprised that C.I.E. built the E class locomotives rather than buying shunters off-the-shelf. With the 1101 and 1102 samples there was evidence enough that they weren't capable of conctructing a decent diesel locomotive. 

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, connollystn said:

I'm surprised that C.I.E. built the E class locomotives rather than buying shunters off-the-shelf. With the 1101 and 1102 samples there was evidence enough that they weren't capable of conctructing a decent diesel locomotive. 

I think that diesels were still - in Europe - a relatively new thing, with most railway administrations still in a steam mindset, although CIE had railcars on the main lines after 1950. Bullied's influence and spirit of experimentation was still floating about, too. Ireland was never big enough to put massive resources into designing their own indigenous diesels; it made sense to use technology dreamed up, tried and tested by others.

Hence the A, B101 and C classes - and later American varieties. To be fair to CIE, our nearest neighbours in BR invented all manner of diesel prototypes which didn't last - they, too, were treading an unknown road.

The E421 class actually worked very well, and had the "no shunt" railway and later decimation of goods traffic not come about in the last fifty years, I daresay they'd still be with us. The two at Downpatrick served that line very well until withdrawn for further restoration some years ago, and they were over 40 years old at that stage, and had not seen the inside of Inchicore since the mid 1980s........

One wonders what "off-the-shelf" ones they might have bought; the "G" class come to mind! With BR having so many experimental diesel shunters at that time, some good, some useless, CIE might have looked to Germany....? We might have had the "E" klasse......

[flange lubricator]

5 minutes ago, connollystn said:

I'm surprised that C.I.E. built the E class locomotives rather than buying shunters off-the-shelf. With the 1101 and 1102 samples there was evidence enough that they weren't capable of conctructing a decent diesel locomotive. 

Yes your probably correct but at the time there was a big imperative to keep the skilled workforce and craftsmen at Inchicore employed and where they could they built them in house , I think the E421's were the last locos built at Inchicore.

I was talking to an electrician from Ballyfermot who worked in Inchicore in the 1960's when I asked him about them he remarked that "many holidays and home improvements were paid for with the overtime they got from building the E class" so the wider economy benefited too. 

[connollystn]

One other thing that has always bothered me is, until the EMDs arrived, none of the diesels seem to have had a main headlight.

[jhb171achill]

11 minutes ago, connollystn said:

One other thing that has always bothered me is, until the EMDs arrived, none of the diesels seem to have had a main headlight.

A throwback to steam days, when a couple of oil lamps on the front was the only show in town!

20 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Yes your probably correct but at the time there was a big imperative to keep the skilled workforce and craftsmen at Inchicore employed and where they could they built them in house , I think the E421's were the last locos built at Inchicore.

I was talking to an electrician from Ballyfermot who worked in Inchicore in the 1960's when I asked him about them he remarked that "many holidays and home improvements were paid for with the overtime they got from building the E class" so the wider economy benefited too. 

Very true - and something that's important for us to still remember these days - buy local!

 

[skinner75]

29 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

CIE might have looked to Germany....? We might have had the "E" klasse......

Well K801 which was brought in on trial was based on the German V65

[jhb171achill]

47 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Well K801 which was brought in on trial was based on the German V65

Very true, I forgot about that. They might have had more of those for Dublin area heavy goods transfers, and perhaps something like a development of the "D" class along the lines of British 08s........

[Blaine]

58 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Well K801 which was brought in on trial was based on the German V65

Don't forget that was an unwanted child from the GNRB breakup, and as said above from a steam mindset also. Kept failing as it had to be at a complete standstill before the reverser could be engaged to change direction - unlike a steam loco, drivers used to handling steam did the same with it, and used to blow the control circuits. Its German roots so soon after WW2 meant it would never have visited the UK, never mind its bigger loading gauge holding it back. Being the black sheep of the larger family didnt do it any favours, despite its impressive performance

[Haulier]

I think it was the E's that some of the drivers had a fear that above  a certain speed they might take off....there was one comment that coming up to an overbridge, there was a worry the  loco might try to go over rather than under it

[MD220]

Newbridge, 1962-ish.

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, connollystn said:

I'm surprised that C.I.E. built the E class locomotives rather than buying shunters off-the-shelf. With the 1101 and 1102 samples there was evidence enough that they weren't capable of conctructing a decent diesel locomotive. 

1100 and 1101 were basically the fore runners of the British Railways Derby and BRCW Type 2 Classes probably one of the most successful and useful Modernisation Scheme designs. https://www.derbysulzers.com/cie.html

The main weakness in the two Irish mixed traffic prototypes was rough riding due to the plate frame carriage bogie design, the 1100-1101 engine and electrical  were sound the Metropolitan Vickers electrical system was considered superior to the systems used in the BR Type 2. Its possible CIE went for plate frame bogies because cast steel bogies were un-available or prohibitively expensive in 1948 or someone in Inchacore simply compared notes with Eastleigh on Southern Railways experience with EMU and diesel electric locomotive bogies.

Its a pity that CIEs budget did not stretch to bringing 1100-1101 into line with the B101 Class by increasing the BRCW order to 14 sets of parts, an additional pair of B Class locos with universal route availability would have been very useful until sufficient re-motored A Class were available to replace the B101 and pairs of GMs on the heaviest duties.

The E Class are German locos with high speed Maybach Engines and Mekydro hydraulic transmissions, CIE gradually phased out the D301 Class Ireland sole example of the classic British diesel shunter by the late 1960s.

[Blaine]

13 hours ago, MD220 said:

Newbridge, 1962-ish.

It still bears a scar or two from this incident today

[Galteemore]

Very nice little article here: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/europeantraction.com/2017/06/10/cie-e421-class-little-maybachs-in-ireland/amp/

[K801]

On 8/11/2021 at 9:36 AM, connollystn said:

I'm surprised that C.I.E. built the E class locomotives rather than buying shunters off-the-shelf. With the 1101 and 1102 samples there was evidence enough that they weren't capable of conctructing a decent diesel locomotive. 

Good point, Sixteen English Electric 0-6-0DE 350 hp locomotives, based on the Class 08 design but modified for 1,600 mm (5 ft 3 in) gauge, were built new and exported 1951–53 to Australia, entering service on the Victorian Railways as the F class ( The CIE 401 were built in 57/58)

So, if anybody has a repainted Hornby/Lima/Bachmass BR 08 on an Irish layout, you can say it was imported from down under!

 

[Mayner]

15 hours ago, K801 said:

Good point, Sixteen English Electric 0-6-0DE 350 hp locomotives, based on the Class 08 design but modified for 1,600 mm (5 ft 3 in) gauge, were built new and exported 1951–53 to Australia, entering service on the Victorian Railways as the F class ( The CIE 401 were built in 57/58)

So, if anybody has a repainted Hornby/Lima/Bachmass BR 08 on an Irish layout, you can say it was imported from down under!

 

The D301 Class were basically a "Standard" British shunter with a 485 hp Mirrless engine and Brush traction motors rather than EE equipment 

https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/CIÉ_301(D)_Class

The main complaint appears to have been cold drafty cabs, two stored by 1960 most likely to provide spares for the remining members of the class.

The E401 & E421 locos were considered to be successful, the medium speed engines and hydraulic transmissions probably gave the E401s an edge over the D Class and conventional British shunters for working the heavy Kingsbridge-North Wall transfer freights until replaced with main line locos in the early 70s. Interestingly the load rating for a single E 401 between Kingsbridge and the North Wall was heavier than the B141 class that replaced them on some transfer duties.

Ireland developed links with German and Continental manufacturers from the 1920s with the Shannon Scheme, The Sugar Factories and Peat harvesting which laid the foundation for large scale Industrialisation during the 1960s, the relationships with German manufacturers lead to companies like Krupp and Leibherr setting up and remaining in Ireland since the mid 1960s, CIE buying German technology would have been consistent with this policy and its possible it may have been possible to build the E Class cheaper than commissioning EE to build a fleet of standard shunters for CIE as Germany was anxious to re-build its economy following the War.

[K801]

18 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/CIÉ_301(D)_Class

 

That pic was taken by the late great Paddy Kennedy, I found it many years ago as a 1 x 1 inch slide and had this gem of a photo lifted from it