Fry Model Railway

[murrayec]

On 5/11/2018 at 1:58 PM, murrayec said:

With the limited size of the proposed facility I reckon the complete Fry Collection just will not fit. The hall for a Gauge 0 layout is restrictive in size, so as you say a Gauge 00 layout would seem more appropriate, of course there could be a O track incorporated to allow Fry Models run on special occasions- maybe!

@jhb171achill

When I made that comment about a Gauge O layout no way did I envisage someone in their not-so-right mind putting in a 'Gauge O Ceiling Level Track'....

Eoin

[Midland Man]

Twice the size of you wanted to a copy o the OO gauge layout but a. American styled layout would do in the space only if you move some display cases.

[murrayec]

49 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Please excuse the question, but just how big would you need a building to be to do a proper job? To display and run an O gauge layout.

Regards

Colin R

@Colin R

I calculated out areas back at the time of the planning process that a Gauge O layout for Irish stock could work with 2m radius curves and in some cases smaller radius where the track is not doing a 180deg curve and still incorporate display area at = 270sqm- that's around 2 times the size of the floor area given to the new OO layout and public circulation around the layout. It would not have been a rectangular board layout but a rambling layout that the public would have had access to 3/4 the way round.The layout was a small Gauge O layout about half the size of the original castle layout now dismantled.

This plan also had a workshop facility and a staging area for trains to go out on the layout, I proposed the workshop as part of the museum exhibit. This idea was designed to fit the Casino site with minor modifications to the councils design and an extension into the courtyard at the front of the facility. It would have cost more.....

 

So Colin to answer your question 270sqm

Eoin

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by murrayec

[Midland Man]

How are they going to maintain the locos on the OO layout

[murrayec]

4 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

How are they going to maintain the locos on the OO layout

It's proposed to do maintenance off site! somewhere!, if those models have to run 7 days a week that's going to be quite regular unless their running systems are upgraded.....

Eoin

[Midland Man]

I really do think that will kill the layout. O would probaly be easyer to maintain but would be more regualar. As for the gauge O ceiling layout the day I went there the engine (a j15 not rebuilt) would not run!

[murrayec]

I know that J15 and the other locos chosen to run on the overhead I helped to choose them- all are in a poor state, all required works to be done for reliable running- alas my quote for doing this work was not accepted.

Eoin

Edited April 6, 2020 by murrayec

[jhb171achill]

On 1/1/2013 at 4:30 PM, RedRich said:

Lovely photos, it's really soul destroying when you think of the situation the collection is in now.

 

Rich,

Tis indeed a shame the “castle” layout ended up homeless. At least the models have survived!

As others have mentioned, no single issue led to the current position. Money, location and local politics all played their part.

Most recently, of course, a new museum gets designed before proper consideration is given to the space required for what ought to be in it!!!

[murrayec]

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Most recently, of course, a new museum gets designed before proper consideration is given to the space required for what ought to be in it!!!

One of my main problems when architecting in other's offices was the difficulty of - hearing the client brief, understanding the brief, finally interpreting and formulating the brief to achieve the correct design solution for what's required! I could not wait to go out on my own and get away from those stupid people.....

Eoin

[Midland Man]

The design was rushed and there is a large amount of problems. I have said before and will say again  an American layout would be better space wise and if you swapped the places of the display cases and layout itself this could be achieved with probaly more space left. It also seems that the money left by a certain person(who I can not remember his name) was probaly spent on the wages of the people working at Malahide who don't know one thing about the cottage or the model itself. If I wa I charge it would colon try run by members of the public who know and model railways and have a interest in Frys models

MM 

[jhb171achill]

The wages of the staff are paid by Shannon Heritage, whose brief is to operate what they've been given. It is, as I've mentioned elsewhere, very much still a work in progress. 

Most of the "Castle" models will eventually be on public display, with some in Malahide and others in several other locations, with whom arrangements are currently being explored. A very good alternative to just stuffing them in boxes in Malahide's attic!

[Noel]

I quite liked the museum and was very impressed with the displays. The new layout is obviously radically different and relatively small due to the space constraints compared to the castle layout even in 4mm scale. But Its a good start and I hope will grow in complexity in time. The new layout is probably more appealing to modellers than the public as it is a higher scenic standard but perhaps lacks the energy and sheer amount action that that vast castle layout facilitated in terms of entertaining the public and especially children. The old castle layout was an assault on the senses in terms of action entertainment and diversity of stock moving every which way along with the background noises. It is great that Ireland once again has a model railway museum with an operating layout.  

[Midland Man]

First of all I have nothing wrong with the layout I think it is to the highest standard amd Basebord Dave did an exellent job and he deserves a thank you. The problim I find is when is the space between the cabaret and the layout itself is far two small and feels cramped when trying to look at the bottom cabinet. That all I find it wrong so if you though if it was that the layout should been American styled yes it woul have been longer but with the layout we have the is really no point. So if anyone is offended by this who work in building Malihide I am sorry.

MM

[jhb171achill]

53 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

First of all I have nothing wrong with the layout I think it is to the highest standard amd Basebord Dave did an exellent job and he deserves a thank you. The problim I find is when is the space between the cabaret and the layout itself is far two small and feels cramped when trying to look at the bottom cabinet. That all I find it wrong so if you though if it was that the layout should been American styled yes it woul have been longer but with the layout we have the is really no point. So if anyone is offended by this who work in building Malihide I am sorry.

MM

Don't worry, MM, were all entitled to our opinions!

As one who became involved with it (long after the planning aspect was done, dusted and cast in stone, I agree with comments made by many.

Visitor reactions have been mixed, but as I say it opened far, far too quickly, and much has yet to be done.

The cabinets are not to my liking either, but it is what it is and the challenge is to make the best of it. My role going forward is to try to enhance the historical side of it. I’m working on this at home, along with those who will have the purse strings and those who will be operating it.

If they accept what I want them to, the stuff stuck on the walls will be very much enhanced. I’ve a guide book completed and I’m working on further descriptions on all of the display case captions. Mr & Mrs Public currently see a model and beside it the caption says “C D R Railcar No. 10”. That means nothing to them. All the captions need to re-done, in this case, for example to say it was built in 1932, withdrawn after 17 years in Donegal, and is now in Cultra. Also, where the CVR went, where the thing ran.

With “internment” continuing, I have a years’ work ahead, I dare say. I’m doing stuff for nearby Newbridge House too, on behalf of the same management.

[WRENNEIRE]

Not of Malahide interest but may be of interest to the Fry community

1940 from the "Model Railway Constructor"
Interesting to see how Maedhbh was spelt

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

I wonder what became of the model of 801.

A puzzling thing is that the painting, lining and lettering is not to Fry’s normal standard. 

[murrayec]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A puzzling thing is that the painting, lining and lettering is not to Fry’s normal standard. 

@jhb171achill

I would question whether the above 800 model is by Mr Fry, I'm only going on the photos above which are low rez and lacking detail, but

The photo below is the Fry 800 that I conserved and did a few small repairs on, the main thing to note is Mr Fry's maker plate affixed to the frame above the front running board which is not evident in the photo above, also the front of the valve cylinder protrudes further on the Fry model below than in the photo above, and the last boiler band adjacent to the firebox on the Fry model below is about 3mm from the fire box where in the photo above, it would seem to be up against the fire box;-

This Fry model has a 3 puff smoke generator, it's run from two cams on the front driving axle to give a Puff,Puff - Puff, for 3 cylinders! Also in the tender there is a relay system to change the power polarity to run the loco in reverse as this model was built prior to the time motors could not go backwards.....

Eoin

Edited April 14, 2020 by murrayec

[Midland Man]

It could be Meadh Made by George Hanan built in the  70s I think using proper GSR green that Fry got at Inchicore in the late 30s. More info in model Irish model railways by Alan O Rourke and Steaphen Johnson. Is there any pics of the smoke generator inside Frys models?

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

It could be Meadh Made by George Hanan built in the  70s I think using proper GSR green that Fry got at Inchicore in the late 30s. More info in model Irish model railways by Alan O Rourke and Steaphen Johnson. Is there any pics of the smoke generator inside Frys models?

This model is photographed in a 1940 mag, MM, so it refers to 1939. So the jury’s out!

1 hour ago, murrayec said:

@jhb171achill

I would question whether the above 800 model is by Mr Fry, I'm only going on the photos above which are low rez and lacking detail, but

The photo below is the Fry 800 that I conserved and did a few small repairs on, the main thing to note is Mr Fry's maker plate affixed to the frame above the front running board which is not evident in the photo above.........

 

I would completely agree. Fry’s model, also, is of 800 in CIE livery, whereas the above purports to be 801, and in GSR livery.

[murrayec]

@Midland Man

It's not Mr Hanan's 70s model- the Railway Model Constructor article is dated June 1940!

Here is the only photo I have of the underside of the model showing the cams on the front drive wheel axles, two cams- one with 2 lobes and the other with 1, the lobes acted on two reed type switches which made the electrical contacts to the smoke generators. I was unable to investigate further as that would have entailed dismantling valve gear and many other things that was outside my brief, unfortunate as it would have been nice to view the whole system!

This model was constructed from mild steel as were a number of other Fry locos......

Eoin

[Midland Man]

17 hours ago, murrayec said:

@jhb171achill

I would question whether the above 800 model is by Mr Fry, I'm only going on the photos above which are low rez and lacking detail, but

The photo below is the Fry 800 that I conserved and did a few small repairs on, the main thing to note is Mr Fry's maker plate affixed to the frame above the front running board which is not evident in the photo above, also the front of the valve cylinder protrudes further on the Fry model below than in the photo above, and the last boiler band adjacent to the firebox on the Fry model below is about 3mm from the fire box where in the photo above, it would seem to be up against the fire box;-

This Fry model has a 3 puff smoke generator, it's run from two cams on the front driving axle to give a Puff,Puff - Puff, for 3 cylinders! Also in the tender there is a relay system to change the power polarity to run the loco in reverse as this model was built prior to the time motors could not go backwards.....

Eoin

He there 

After thinking over your question if they are the same loco I think that that model from 1940 was scrapped by Mr Fry. Here are my reasons.

1. The year of the magazine is 1940 at the same time WW2 was happening across the pond whitch gave Ireland a shortage of metal an other materials. 

2. If fry broke up the engine that mean the model of Meadh may date back to the 40s as he would have probally have saved it as it was his only one.

3. It says that he is from Dundrum. I thought he is from Malihide or maybe it was not even mad by fry in the first place.

4. If it was broken up that mean parts of the engine would have ended up on different engine Si  the colection my guess is the 2-8-0 shunter(sorry if I got the wheel arrangement wrong)

[murrayec]

@Midland Man

I believe we have already established that they are different models.

Fry's maker plate on the CIE 800 is dated 7. 39! so this model was built just before the war and still exists today,

also the value of the scrap metal in this model would equal 4 no wheel hub bolts for an artillery piece... if you know what I mean?

Fry lived in Churchtown, Dundrum- Malahide is were the museum is set up.

Following your train of thought on scrappage- surly if the model was to be scrapped the materials would have gone into something war related rather than another model?

Eoin

 

 

 

 

[Midland Man]

@murrayec

The reason i think the engine was scraped by fry was not for metal but rather electrics as all electrics would have been in the UK. None of the  metal would have not been used for army reasons as Eire was Netural. We were more Netural the Switzerland as they have 105s and French planes that were captured by the nazis and sold to them. As for me thinking that Fry live in Malahide it's because Gay Byrne visited him and he lived in Malahide (he all so lived in Dundrum I think) I can sea why Drew Dinaldson used clockwork as elf tonics only came back to Eire in the late 40s. You can sea why Drew Donaldson used clock work as they were easy a lot to get than any electrics. As for the smoke generators they would be impossible to get in the second would war. 

MM

[minister_for_hardship]

Correct. There weren't any scrap drives here as happened in the UK.

[Galteemore]

Just as well - all those lovely Dublin iron railings might have vanished. Most of what was collected in the big island was essentially useless for war work and apparently ended up being quietly dumped. The intended effect was arguably achieved however, in making people feel part of the effort...

[Broithe]

6 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Just as well - all those lovely Dublin iron railings might have vanished. Most of what was collected in the big island was essentially useless for war work and apparently ended up being quietly dumped. The intended effect was arguably achieved however, in making people feel part of the effort...

A large proportion of the aluminium saucepans that were also collected were eventually melted down to make aluminium saucepans...

[minister_for_hardship]

50 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Just as well - all those lovely Dublin iron railings might have vanished. Most of what was collected in the big island was essentially useless for war work and apparently ended up being quietly dumped. The intended effect was arguably achieved however, in making people feel part of the effort...

What wasn't destroyed by war was destroyed by neglect and demolition ball but I digress. 

[jhb171achill]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 2:54 PM, Midland Man said:

He there 

After thinking over your question if they are the same loco I think that that model from 1940 was scrapped by Mr Fry. Here are my reasons.

1. The year of the magazine is 1940 at the same time WW2 was happening across the pond whitch gave Ireland a shortage of metal an other materials. 

2. If fry broke up the engine that mean the model of Meadh may date back to the 40s as he would have probally have saved it as it was his only one.

3. It says that he is from Dundrum. I thought he is from Malihide or maybe it was not even mad by fry in the first place.

4. If it was broken up that mean parts of the engine would have ended up on different engine Si  the colection my guess is the 2-8-0 shunter(sorry if I got the wheel arrangement wrong)

Nothing was scrapped in this way as Eoin says. If ever Fry scrapped anything, it would have been because he dropped it on the floor and it bent while he was building it! And given his levels of skill and care, that's unlikely.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

A large proportion of the aluminium saucepans that were also collected were eventually melted down to make aluminium saucepans...

And tin hats for spike milligan!

[Broithe]

2 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

What wasn't destroyed by war was destroyed by neglect and demolition ball but I digress. 

The town I live in on the Big Island got a total of four bombs in WW2, and only one of them went off properly.

Everything else was caused by their own 'officialdom' in the comfort of peacetime.

 

[jhb171achill]

Museum open to the public tomorrow, 7th July.

Open from now on (tsunamis, viruses, power cuts and plagues of locusts permitting) six days a week (closed Mondays).

[Blaine]

Anyone feeling brave?

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0630/1232254-search-begins-for-new-operator-for-dublin-attractions/

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Shannon Heritage are withdrawing from managing quite a number of tourist attractions...... not just around Dublin, but also in the west - Bunratty Castle & Folk Park, for example. Since Clare Co. Council are directly taking THAT over, the likelihood is that Fingal Co Council will take over Malahide Castle, the Model Railway Museum, Newbridge House in Donabate and so on - I would guess.

Fingal CoCo are the owners. But as a local authority, it is better for them to sub-contract the day-to-day running of anything they can; but museums across the board rarely if ever cover their costs, let alone make a surplus, so as a general rule it isn't easy to find groups to operate such things.

Voluntary society, anyone?

[Blaine]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, Shannon Heritage are withdrawing from managing quite a number of tourist attractions...... not just around Dublin, but also in the west - Bunratty Castle & Folk Park, for example. Since Clare Co. Council are directly taking THAT over, the likelihood is that Fingal Co Council will take over Malahide Castle, the Model Railway Museum, Newbridge House in Donabate and so on - I would guess.

Fingal CoCo are the owners. But as a local authority, it is better for them to sub-contract the day-to-day running of anything they can; but museums across the board rarely if ever cover their costs, let alone make a surplus, so as a general rule it isn't easy to find groups to operate such things.

Voluntary society, anyone?

Unlikely given FCC didnt help any of the groups who approached when the initial fry model railway was closed. 

[DJ Dangerous]

IRM could take over and turn it into a giant showroom!