Craven Coaches 1145 & 1146

[dave182]

Hi Guys

 

Just reading on Wikipedia (coaching stock of Ireland page) about 2 First Class Cravens that were built at Inchicore in the 60's. Anyone got pictures or more information on these coaches? They were numbered 1145 & 1146 and had air conditioning. Coach 1145 was destroyed in the Buttevant crash of 1980. Just wondering if they looked much different externally? How long did 1146 last?

[StevieB]

Murphy models produced a model of the first class Cravens - obviously it utilises the same body shell as the others.

Stephen

[WRENNEIRE]

Correct Stevie

Murphy did an early livery 1st class Craven 1149

CIE built 4 First Class Cravens, think they were called Super Standards also?

1145TL & 1146TL built in 1964

42 seats, 61'6" long & 9'6" wide

32 Ton weight and they had Commonwealth Bogies

1149TL & 1150TL built in 1970

40 seats, 62'8" long & 9'6" wide

28.75 Ton weight & ran on B4 bogies

[burnthebox]

OK, so now where's the pics, models, prototypes

[BosKonay]

A little detail here: http://irishrailmodels.com/2012/01/19/craven-1149-cie/

[BosKonay]

[BosKonay]

[BosKonay]

Latter image courtesy of Mr. Wrenneire

[Glenderg]

I don't think the 1145/46 pair were Cravens per se - I believe they were bredin mk2/laminate stock merely tarted up with curtains, window stickers and better more generous seating - known as First Class. The other pairing 1149/1150 were Craven stock though. I believe this is the tail end of either 1145 or 1146 here.

 

 

 

Richie

[Killucan2]

1149,1150 were craven's 45,46 were earlier stock,have film of inchicore in early 60s with a new first 45? Parked beside a new bubble cement in all Gray.

[jhb171achill]

Correct, Killucan. As for the Craven pair, they wouldn't have been air conditioned; the 1972 Mk 2 were the first.

[flange lubricator]

1145 and 1146 were real first class coaches among the last to be constructed at Inchicore and of that era possibily the finest , they were air conditioned note in the picture above the a/c unit on the sub frame the first in Ireland at that time and double glazed , the also were fitted with the higher spec commonwealth bogie similar to those fitted to BR mk1's.

 

1145 was destroyed at Buttervant and 1146 was destroyed in Belfast on 12/10/78 following a bomb attack .

[jhb171achill]

Interesting, flange..... But surely not a/c as we know it today - more like fan systems, possibly? Hard to see how a/c could have functioned with opening quarter lights.....?

[josefstadt]

I think 1145/46 had what is called a 'forced air' ventilation system, with the fan blowing air into ventilation ducts. The air could possibly have been heated in the winter, but, as JHB says, it wouldn't have been 'air conditioning' as we know it today. As flange lubricator points out they were real 'First Class' vehicles, designed and built for that purpose. In addition to the ventilation system they had fluorescent lighting and seated 42 passengers in individual three-position reclining armchairs.

 

With respect to the 'First Class' Cravens, there were five - 1147 - 1151. These were converted from 'Standard Class coaches and as a result the seats did not line up correctly with the windows. The history of these coaches is:

 

1147 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1551 on 27/01/1970. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1551 in June 1973;

 

1148 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1547 on 16/01/1970. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1547 in December 1974;

 

1149 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1558 on 01/05/1970. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1558 on 31/12/1984;

 

1150 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1548 on 02/09/1970. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1548 on 25/10/1984;

 

1151 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1547 in March 1980. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1547 on 04/03/1985.

[StevieB]

Interesting about the windows. In the UK it was the standard class passengers who didn't have windows and seats lining up in the mk3's.

Stephen

[BSGSV]

1148 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1547 on 16/01/1970. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1547 in December 1974;

1151 - Converted from Standard Class coach 1547 in March 1980. Reverted to Standard Class coach 1547 on 04/03/1985.

 

Took me a long time to figure out how CIE had created five super standards out of four standards, until I tracked down the dates the super standards were current. I still have no real idea why CIE didn't re-use the number 1148 and can only conclude it was an oversight.

[Broithe]

Was there any visible difference in the underfloor equipment between the Standards and the Super Standard/First Class carriages?

[josefstadt]

Stephen, it was of course the use of a carriage with windows spaced for Standard Class along with seats spaced for First Class that resulted in the problems with seats and windows not aligning. With the Irish Mk IIIs it was a First Class bodyshell with Standard Class seating resulting in the latter not aligning properly. In the UK the Standard Class MkIIIs had/have two variations - SO (Second Open) and TSO (Tourist Second Open). The latter had a higher density seating leading to further complications with seat / window alignment.

 

BSGSV, I can only assume that when 1547 was converted to 1151 nobody thought to check to see if it had been a First Class coach previously and just used the next number in the series.

 

Broithe, no difference. All that was done was a refurbishment of the interior and the fitting of First Class seating.

[Broithe]

Broithe, no difference. All that was done was a refurbishment of the interior and the fitting of First Class seating.

Right, I just wondered after the talk of different ventilation arrangements.

[StevieB]

So, is MM's rendition of the Craven 1st class correct in having seats and windows aligned?

Stephen

[josefstadt]

So, is MM's rendition of the Craven 1st class correct in having seats and windows aligned?

Stephen

 

I'd say no Stephen. The MM model uses a regular 2 + 2 Standard Class seating insert. The prototype vehicles would have had 2 + 1 seating, with some sources quoting 37 seats and others 40. I can't remember the exact layout of the seats - i.e. if they were all arranged face to face or if the were some face to back (airline style).

[Mayner]

While Inchacore built 1st 1145 &1146 were the 1st to be fitted with double glazing, the credit for air conditioning goes to the GSR at least one of the 1937 "Bredin" Composites was fitted with "Stones air conditioning plant".

 

Presumably the intake air was fed through a refrigeration unit to adjust the temperature & humidiiy similar in principal to a heat pump and vented through the roof & window vents

[flange lubricator]

That's very interesting John , while 1145 & 1146 were perhaps not the first to have Air conditioning even in a basic form as josefstadt and jhb171achill have pointed out , as compaired to the 'fully air conditioned mk2d's, the were certainly ahead of there time and represented the end of coach building at Inchicore , they also must have some form of steam heat too , perhaps even thermostatically controlled , as the would have to work in sets with existing stock.

 

With regard to the Craven 1st's I seem to rembember they had pine or oak coloured veneer paneling throughout as compared to the grey chequred plastic and the later dark beauty board in the standards even in the 1980's when they had been declassfied , one could always tell the ex 1st's by this feature , while the Murphy models craven is suberb ( I bought them all ) one niggle the non TL one's like 1149 have no battery boxes or dynamo's on the underframe which they would have carried prior to being converted to TL (Train Line) in the early 1970's with the arrival of the Dutch Vans and the BR vans

[BSGSV]

and represented the end of coach building at Inchicore......prior to being converted to TL (Train Line) in the early 1970's with the arrival of the Dutch Vans and the BR vans

In fairness to Inchicore, the last coach was built in 1991 (I think), being 6105 and they built many of CIE's Mk.3's.

The Dutch vans were originally just boiler vans and had to be fitted with generators in the 1970's for TL use. The BR vans heralded the TL era.

[WT CLASS 2-6-4T No. 4]

That's very interesting John , while 1145 & 1146 were....... converted to TL (Train Line) in the early 1970's with the arrival of the Dutch Vans and the BR vans

 

Hi flange lubricator, when I worked in The Carriage and Wagon Dept. at Heuston in the early 80's the TL with the coach number on the Cravens was understood to mean Train Lighting. Also the coach sets when they were overhauled in Heuston in the 80's were always marked with the date and initials KB, on the underframes to signify Kingsbridge was the depot.

 

Walter.

[heirflick]

fair play to all involved in this discussion - its the most informative piece that i have come across in a while!

[Old Blarney]

Gang,

 

I'm all upset now having purchased two of them 1st Class Craven yokes provided to us modellers by young Mr Murphy. I never thought about how the alignment of the windows to the seats or even the seats to the windows might have changed when the conversions took place. I just thought of the type of passenger that would occupy the first class seats and decided to place a superior type of person in my First Class Cravens. The women wear hats, have gloved hands, matching shoes and handbags whilst the men have removed their headgear and placed it in the racks above the seats. The newspapers and magazines they have in their hands are, The Irish Times, Financial Times, Playboy, Mayfair and other salacious publications that were only obtainable in the North of Ireland. My evening is ruined. I'm going to have to change the interior of the coaches, and ask all of them people to move from out of their seats because they don't have the right to be where they are. Mayhem will be heard in my railway room for days.

 

Seriously, thank you to each of you for providing this interesting historical information.

 

David.

[josefstadt]

Gang,

 

I'm all upset now having purchased two of them 1st Class Craven yokes provided to us modellers by young Mr Murphy. I never thought about how the alignment of the windows to the seats or even the seats to the windows might have changed when the conversions took place. I just thought of the type of passenger that would occupy the first class seats and decided to place a superior type of person in my First Class Cravens. The women wear hats, have gloved hands, matching shoes and handbags whilst the men have removed their headgear and placed it in the racks above the seats. The newspapers and magazines they have in their hands are, The Irish Times, Financial Times, Playboy, Mayfair and other salacious publications that were only obtainable in the North of Ireland. My evening is ruined. I'm going to have to change the interior of the coaches, and ask all of them people to move from out of their seats because they don't have the right to be where they are. Mayhem will be heard in my railway room for days.

 

Seriously, thank you to each of you for providing this interesting historical information.

 

David.

 

=))

[Mayner]

Gang,

 

I'm all upset now having purchased two of them 1st Class Craven yokes provided to us modellers by young Mr Murphy. I never thought about how the alignment of the windows to the seats or even the seats to the windows might have changed when the conversions took place. I just thought of the type of passenger that would occupy the first class seats and decided to place a superior type of person in my First Class Cravens. The women wear hats, have gloved hands, matching shoes and handbags whilst the men have removed their headgear and placed it in the racks above the seats. The newspapers and magazines they have in their hands are, The Irish Times, Financial Times, Playboy, Mayfair and other salacious publications that were only obtainable in the North of Ireland. My evening is ruined. I'm going to have to change the interior of the coaches, and ask all of them people to move from out of their seats because they don't have the right to be where they are. Mayhem will be heard in my railway room for days.

 

Seriously, thank you to each of you for providing this interesting historical information.

 

David.

 

What no Cork Examiner "The Paper" on the Cork expresses boy?

 

For he late 60s era you will need airline seating and orange mini-skirted hostesses with beehive hairdoos :oin the Superstandards.

[Broithe]

Don't forget the antimacassars.

[flange lubricator]

As the words of the novel go 'The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there' I would like to think they had Comely maidens to tend to the needs of the great unwashed like me in the standard class too

I somehow think that after this picture was taken this lady went back to the superstandard passangers. Dont think you would get a beehive under that hat.

Edited August 1, 2014 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

I notice a "2" on the carriage door. I'd forgotten that detail on Cravens....

[Mayner]

As the words of the novel go 'The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there' I would like to think they had Comely maidens to tend to the needs of the great unwashed like me in the standard class too

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14261[/ATTACH]

I somehow think that after this picture was taken this lady went back to the superstandard passangers. Dont think you would get a beehive under that hat.

 

 

Different Country indeed porter wheeling passengers luggage in backround. The Supertrain publicity from the early 70s included hostess in more contemporary dress,dig those chequer board platforms and purple orange trains

[flange lubricator]

In fairness to Inchicore, the last coach was built in 1991 (I think), being 6105 and they built many of CIE's Mk.3's.

The Dutch vans were originally just boiler vans and had to be fitted with generators in the 1970's for TL use. The BR vans heralded the TL era.

 

 

Correct BSGSV! 6105 was the one of the last carraiges constructed at Inchicore , without sounding too pedantic 6105 was a BREL designed carraige , while 1145/46 were designed and built at Inchicore by CIE staff following these carraiges the cravens , Mk 2's , Mk 3's , were designed in the UK , with the finishing carried out at Inchicore the Mk3's were assembled with Jigs and parts from BREL

[heirflick]

 

was the 'failte' plate on the craven there just for the pic or was it a permanent feature?

[flange lubricator]

They were permanent as far as I can remember depending on the service

 

Failte - Dublin-Cork -Dublin

Cu Na Mara - Dublin-Galway-Dublin

Sarseal-Dublin -Limerick-Dublin

 

There may have been more name trains than this that were named or the above may not be correct , no doubt more knowledgeable minds than mine may provide more information.