The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[Noel]

Actually, what if Irish rail was privatised, into 2-3 different companies,maybe in 2011?

 

Can't see how it would have worked as our network is too small for competition to work. The only way to have 'competition' might have been state ownership of the network, selling capacity to multiple competing operators on the same routes, but I can't see how the economics of scale could have worked for fragmenting operators with such a small population and only three proper sized cities on the island. Anyway the motorways have won. In the very very long term it seems inevitable that the entire network will eventually be forced to go electric.

[Mayner]

So.. Re privatise?

 

Most probably a break up of CIE in a similar manner to the UTA into separate state owned railway, bus companies and road freight companies.

 

Abandonment of secondary main lines would have allowed Government to focus investment to improve service quality on the remaining lines, perhaps introducing Blue Pullmans or IC125s on the Cork & Belfast lines in the Mid-1970s

[Mayner]

Actually, what if Irish rail was privatised, into 2-3 different companies,maybe in 2011?

 

You would probably end up with Transdev (Veolia) operating the DART, & Cork Commuter Services with Stagecoach and First Group carving up Intercity, Bus-Eireann and Dublin Bus between them rather than any actual competition on a paricular route

 

 

I can't see any advantages in contracting out services to a Multi-National operator as the Irish Government would still be responsible for providing and maintaining the trains, busses, rail and road infrastructure and making up the operating losses, the operator basically paying staff a minimum wage and clipping the ticket.

[jhb171achill]

There would absolutely zero advantage in privatising an operation like IE, I agree.

[jhb171achill]

Can't see how it would have worked as our network is too small for competition to work. The only way to have 'competition' might have been state ownership of the network, selling capacity to multiple competing operators on the same routes, but I can't see how the economics of scale could have worked for fragmenting operators with such a small population and only three proper sized cities on the island. Anyway the motorways have won. In the very very long term it seems inevitable that the entire network will eventually be forced to go electric.

 

That just about sums it up in all respects. A rapidly growing population will aid the case for electrification, though one might exclude Waterford - Limerick Junction, the Nenagh branch, and Wexford - Rosslare from the future network.

[Junctionmad]

You would probably end up with Transdev (Veolia) operating the DART, & Cork Commuter Services with Stagecoach and First Group carving up Intercity, Bus-Eireann and Dublin Bus between them rather than any actual competition on a paricular route

 

 

I can't see any advantages in contracting out services to a Multi-National operator as the Irish Government would still be responsible for providing and maintaining the trains, busses, rail and road infrastructure and making up the operating losses, the operator basically paying staff a minimum wage and clipping the ticket.

 

Not to get too current but taking the luas drivers , it's hard to see the sense in your last line " ie minimum wage ). Arguably a private operator migh have to pay more then the state ones

[Mike 84C]

The wages paid by the TOC's on this side of the Irish Sea are staggeringly high, drivers on 40/50k P.A for a 37 hr week is the norm. And Network Rail plus the Underground are equally well paid. Minimum wage, forget it.

The uk's large and growing population has not really pushed the government towards large scale electrification. The east west through the Pennines electrification is now on hold,on cost grounds. I expect it will cost at least twice as much by the time it happens and not in my lifetime!

[Broithe]

The wages paid by the TOC's on this side of the Irish Sea are staggeringly high, drivers on 40/50k P.A for a 37 hr week is the norm. And Network Rail plus the Underground are equally well paid. Minimum wage, forget it.

The uk's large and growing population has not really pushed the government towards large scale electrification. The east west through the Pennines electrification is now on hold,on cost grounds. I expect it will cost at least twice as much by the time it happens and not in my lifetime!

 

The amount of taxpayer's money thrown at the railways here, compared to the BR days, is truly staggering. I know people that work for NR and the money flows like (unmetered) water.

 

And yet, although I live on the West coast Mail Line, I took a train here for the first time in eight years the other day - and then only to Birmingham.

[Mayner]

Not to get too current but taking the luas drivers , it's hard to see the sense in your last line " ie minimum wage ).

 

 

The situation with Transdev and the LUAS drivers is not an isolated case Aukland bus drivers are in a similar dispute over pay and conditions with the First Group. Contracts to operate commuter rail and bus services are usually awarded on the company which requires the lowest level of public subsidy to operate the service. The operator is likely to clam in ability to pay or extra subsidy to meet pay demands or try to terminate the contract

 

 

Arguably a private operator migh have to pay more then the state ones

This does not appear to be the case when services like cleaning, catering and maintenance are "contracted out' in the public service hence my comment that little seemed to be gained in paying a foreign multi-national to employ workers on the minimum wage. Privatisation in Australia and New Zealand in the 1990s did not lead to an improved standard of service or pay and conditions for workers.

 

The experience in the UK was somewhat different with a growing market and staff shortage leading for passenger and freight operators competing for staff, but the Irish does not have the critical mass in terms of population and freight tonnage to support competition between rail operators. UK operators carry about 100m/tm a year Kiwirail 18m/tm IE<1m/tm freight

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

Exactly. Only someone with a very oblique political view, or an utter inability to count, could possibly argue any benefit in privatisation of anything to do with railways in Ireland. The bottom line is this - with no competition possibilities, no way for a private company to actually make a clear profit, the state or local authorities would have to pick up the tab in some shape or form. So they'd be paying what they're paying now - PLUS the private companies directors salaries.

 

The whole concept would be so crass, inefficient and expensive that we need to ensure no politicians are reading this!

[GSR 800]

Exactly. Only someone with a very oblique political view, or an utter inability to count, could possibly argue any benefit in privatisation of anything to do with railways in Ireland. The bottom line is this - with no competition possibilities, no way for a private company to actually make a clear profit, the state or local authorities would have to pick up the tab in some shape or form. So they'd be paying what they're paying now - PLUS the private companies directors salaries.

 

The whole concept would be so crass, inefficient and expensive that we need to ensure no politicians are reading this!

 

Their on to us lads! Scamper!

[jhb171achill]

Enniskerry "might-have-been"

 

There was an article, or small book, published somewhere a few years ago regarding the proposed Bray to Enniskerry railway, on which construction actually did commence in the form of one bridge and a bit of embankment just outside the village.

 

Does anyone here know anything about that article or whatever it was? I'd like to see it.

[GSR 800]

Could this be the book John?

http://www.industrialheritageireland.info/TikiWiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Bray+and+Enniskerry+Railway

[jhb171achill]

That's the VERY one, GSR. Any idea where I might get a copy? Who published it and when?

[GSR 800]

Liam Clare,2007. Not sure where one would get a copy.

Nonsuch publishing?

The link beneath the pic of the book might provide a few more details...

 

 

I know EVERYTHING!

(Not medically accurate)

Edited April 1, 2016 by GSR 800

[GSR 800]

Hmm.. What if Ireland had been 'industrialised' in the late 1700s?

[jhb171achill]

Hmm.. What if Ireland had been 'industrialised' in the late 1700s?

 

 

We'd all be poisoned.

[minister_for_hardship]

Proposed Railway station at Tara.

 

Yes, that Tara, you read that right.

 

http://archiseek.com/2012/1942-new-capital-city-for-ireland-at-tara/

 

(no 9 on the drawing, for non-Irish speakers.)

Edited May 16, 2016 by minister_for_hardship

[minister_for_hardship]

Hmm.. What if Ireland had been 'industrialised' in the late 1700s?

 

The dearth of mineral resources kind of put paid to early industrial revolution activity, that and being seen as being primarily agrarian and in a position well down the pecking order compared to England/Wales/Scot.

Don't think it could have kicked off any earlier than it did.

[Maitland]

Ireland did beat England to canal building - the Newry Canal was opened when the Duke of Bridgewater was still in short trousers. I think the slow industrial development might have had something to do with the state of Ireland in the aftermath of the English Pope Adrian's grant of a country that wasn't his to someone else who didn't own it. Yes, Ireland is rather short of mineral resources compared to the rest of these islands, but had (and has) immense agricultural resources- and don't forget that it was the wool trade, not coal or steel, that kickstarted the Industrial Revolution in England. That and the profits from slavery.

[Broithe]

The Romans built the Foss Dyke from the Trent to Lincoln - still in operation today.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/canal-and-river-network/fossdyke-navigation

[Maitland]

True indeed; and they built the Foss Dyke too, no longer carrying much traffic beyond the odd duck here and there. But the point I was making was that Ireland needn't have been a minor appendage of Europe. Look at Holland. As flat as that bit of Erin that still apparently needs repairing, with mineral resources limited to a bit of Brabant brown coal even worse than Arigna. Yet they were a major international merchant power from their independence at the end of the 16th century to the middle of the 18th. They had the good luck to be contended over by both Protestant and Catholic powers, and as a result unexpectedly and perhaps reluctantly became the first country in Europe to officially tolerate multiple religions. Sort of Ireland inside out.

 

Ireland could have done that, in another history.

[Broithe]

Independence helped, as did being at the mouth of the Rhine.

 

The Hanseatic League seemed to help things along as well.

[jhb171achill]

Wasn't there a one-time proposal for an extension of the Youghal line to eventually get to Waterford?

 

Such a thing - direct Rosslare - Waterford - Cork, had it been built, would almost certainly have made it into the 1960s, possibly early this century for beet.

[closetmodeller]

Connecting Youghal with the line to Lismore was proposed, unde the aegis of the Fishguard-Rosslare railway company. It never took off.

[jhb171achill]

That would have been a highly scenic line!

[StevieB]

In 1846 an Act of Parliament set up the Cork & Waterford Railway to run via Youghal, Dungarvan and Tramore. In the end it failed although bits were built, Cotk to Youghal and Waterford to Tramore. It would, indeed, have been a very scenic line. Modelling opportunities are many and varied.

 

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

A layout based in the highly scenic areas round Ballinacourty / Clonea would be amazing, and quite possibly a much enlarged Waterford Manor station.....

[Old Blarney]

Hejian Class 17

 

I had a wild thought this past week end whilst attending a wonderful three day exhibition of Model Railways and the real thing at The Great Central Railway in England. I assisted in the running of two adjacent OO gauge model railways, St Marnock Shed and Ladeside Diesel Depot.

 

Ladeside has a variety of British Rail Diesel Locomotives which includes a model of a British Railways, Class 17 Clayton. This locomotive caught my imagination, especially as it, along with the others locomotives has good quality sound. Somewhere at the back of my mind, I remembered our Great Northern Railway had issued Invitations-to-tender for Diesel Locomotives. Searching through - New Irish Lines and various journals of the Irish Railway Record Society, I found the information I needed. Yes, both The Clayton Engineering Company and Bayer Peacock had responded to the Great Northern Invitation to Tender. They offered a locomotive that visually resembles the Clayton, BR Class 17. The similarity is such that I feel it it legitimate to have this locomotives on my Irish Model Railway.

 

It is a great candidate for - 'The what if' - What if the Great Northern Railway Board had been granted the funding to proceed with the purchase of these locomotives? We could have seen a look-alike Class 17 painted in our GNR Blue, just like the MAK. Had this locomotive or locomotives been purchased, the possibilities are many -

GNR - Blue

CIE - Various shades of Green - Black and Tan and possibly Super Train Livery!

UTA - Green and possibly NIR maroon too!

 

Anyone fancy preparing a picture of a BR Class 17 in our Irish Colours?

 

The more I think about these possibilities the more convinced i become that I shall purchase at least one BR Class 17 for my Irish Railway.

[RaglanRoad]

I remember reading a post that mentioned a proposed "Ulster & Connacht Railway" from some point in the 19th century. I haven't been able to find any results on it - has anyone heard of this company, or where it was intended to run?

[David Holman]

From Newry to Clifden, is the answer, via the Bessbrook tramway and C&L among others. Three foot gauge, with sleeping cars to boot. Never really got started, but have often thought it would make a fine basis for all sorts of layouts. Would probably need lots of space to do the concept justice though.

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, RaglanRoad said:

I remember reading a post that mentioned a proposed "Ulster & Connacht Railway" from some point in the 19th century. I haven't been able to find any results on it - has anyone heard of this company, or where it was intended to run?

The "Ulster and Connacht" is mentioned briefly in P J Flannigan's Cavan & Leitrim Railway and in more detail in E M Patterson' Clogher Valley Railway. 

The Ulster and Connacht Light Railway was one of a number of schemes to link and amalgamate the Bessbrook & Newry, Clogher Valley and Cavan & Leitrim narrow gauge lines and extend the combined system into Roscommon & Galway.

Ulster and Connacht promoters approached the C&L board for their support in the 1880 but nothing further is known.

The "Ulster and Connacht Light Railways" re-appeared in the early 1900s and received parlimentary approval in 1903 to amalgamate and link the existing three narrow gauge systems, buy the mining rights to the Arigna Coalfield.

The company issued a proposal in 1904 to build a line to extend the system through Strokestown, Roscommon, Mountbellew, Tuam with a branch lines to Galway City & Ballinrobe, the main line continuing through Cong into Connemara to Leenane on Killary Harbour to Clifden. 

The Dromod-Roscommon-Mountbellew section of the scheme are similar to light railway and tramway schemes of the 1880s which would have had a reasonable chance of success.

The only actual construction carried out in connection with the Ulster and Connacht is/was an underbridge in a broad gauge railway embankment at Keadue in County Armagh built in 1908-9 to accommodate the Bessbrook-Tynan section of the U&C

[seagoebox]

And another one !!

[Niles]

Gorey to Courtown anyone?

[Westcorkrailway]

Cork passage and kinsale railway