Buried locos

[Westcorkrailway]

Bit of a silly question, but I came across a story of NIR multiple united being burried rather then scraped due to asbestos, and stories of locos under Inchicore. Basically I want to know what Irish stuff is said to have been buried (understanding that most of these are “stories”)

[skinner75]

10 minutes ago, Broithe said:

The madness of the cavalier attitude is hard to believe -

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14619830-600-lid-blown-off-dounreays-lethal-secret/

 

There an attempt to sort it out just about beginning now, but there's little genuine knowledge about what is actually in there.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-48036793

 

Why oh why would you dump a big lump of sodium or potassium into water?!?!? In a shaft with radioactive waste too no less!  

[Galteemore]

The NIR thing is genuine. Loads of old multiple unit stock dumped in a County Antrim quarry underwater. Had been an alternative plan to relay part of old Goraghwood - Armagh line to enable sealing them up in Lissumon tunnel.https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2004-11-16.196086.h According to Hansard, some 18 items were disposed of this way. As for burying steam locos, they contain far too much in the way of recyclable ie resellable materials for that to happen! It has happened perhaps occasionally overseas when an engine cannot be recovered or a scrapped on site (there are a few NZ cases) but not here !https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/119847636/second-locomotive-buried-in-river-bed-may-be-recovered

Edited November 23, 2021 by Galteemore

[flowcoach]

Not in Ireland, so apologies for the thread drift, but an accidental burial of a locomotive in England in 1892. Beggars belief...

Lindal railway incident - Wikipedia

"No.115 is officially regarded as ‘preserved’"!

Edited November 23, 2021 by flowcoach

[flange lubricator]

A number of ex CIE coaches were disposed  of in that quarry . 

[David Holman]

9 hours ago, Galteemore said:

The NIR thing is genuine. Loads of old multiple unit stock dumped in a County Antrim quarry underwater. Had been an alternative plan to relay part of old Goraghwood - Armagh line to enable sealing them up in Lissumon tunnel.https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2004-11-16.196086.h According to Hansard, some 18 items were disposed of this way. As for burying steam locos, they contain far too much in the way of recyclable ie resellable materials for that to happen! It has happened perhaps occasionally overseas when an engine cannot be recovered or a scrapped on site (there are a few NZ cases) but not here !https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/119847636/second-locomotive-buried-in-river-bed-may-be-recovered

Fascinating! Had not come across that, but given the number of sink holes we now hear about, not surprised. There was also the urban myth of dozens of Stanier 8Fs being walled up in disused tunnels after the end of steam, in case of some doomsday scenario. These days, resurrecting them might be considered pretty terrible too...

[Galteemore]

As with so often in this Forum, a thread has got me exploring. There is an 0-6-0T buried in England near Wigan. Unlike so many of these tales, the incident happened within living memory and is well documented - including a pic of the loco in the pit. Good to see that the driver has been honoured by a memorial. https://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/past1.php

[Mayner]

Apparently a lot of NCB (National Coal Board) locos, stock and track remain entombed underground following mine closures during the 1980s(I had some friends from the industry). Pumps were turned off, shafts capped and mines allowed to flood, there was no further use for the equipment and recovery would have cost more than the scrap value of the metal and the government wanted shut of the NCB and the miners.

[Northroader]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/one-way-to-deal-with-asbestos-lined-carriages.32900/

Edited November 24, 2021 by Northroader

[scahalane]

I attented a IRRS talk in Cork a couple of years ago on the Cork Macroom line. The guy giving the talk mentioned a loco that went off the rails and sank into marshy ground somewhere around where the Sarsfield roundabout on the bypass is now.

A number of attemps to recover it were unsuccessful and eventually it was left there. Apparently it was partially visible for many years and there might even be a photo knocking about. But as far as I know its still there. Don't know what type of loco it is but if anybody has any more info on it I would love to hear.

[skinner75]

AFAIK, the ITG had to have asbestos removed from the cab walls of the B101 class they have at Carrick-on-Suir. It was blue asbestos I think, which isn't as bad to deal with as the fibrous variety.

Edited November 24, 2021 by skinner75

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, scahalane said:

I attented a IRRS talk in Cork a couple of years ago on the Cork Macroom line. The guy giving the talk mentioned a loco that went off the rails and sank into marshy ground somewhere around where the Sarsfield roundabout on the bypass is now.

A number of attemps to recover it were unsuccessful and eventually it was left there. Apparently it was partially visible for many years and there might even be a photo knocking about. But as far as I know its still there. Don't know what type of loco it is but if anybody has any more info on it I would love to hear.

What the hell ……I better break out the metal detector

I wonder if Chris Larkin, an expert on all things west of the river lee was the one hosting that talk. I remember he told me a lot or west cork sleepers were marked with the Russian imperial stamp 

 

 

 

[seagoebox]

Crosshill Quarry, Crumlin, Co. Antrim...

A few pictures from May 1980.....

A mix of MED's But's CIE laminates and Park Royal coaches.

Not quite what the official Hansard record claims regarding wrapping to prevent the exposure to blue asbestos!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, seagoebox said:

Crosshill Quarry, Crumlin, Co. Antrim...

A few pictures from May 1980.....

A mix of MED's But's CIE laminates and Park Royal coaches.

Not quite what the official Hansard record claims regarding wrapping to prevent the exposure to blue asbestos!

Fascinating pictures! I wonder if there's a list anywhere of exactly what went in there?

I've never heard of the Macroom story, nor the one of Russian symbols on sleepers!! (Sleepers wouldn't normally have any symbols on them...)

[mphoey]

makes an interesting point if park royals went in are the 2 in preservation safe

 

 

[minister_for_hardship]

I don't know about the veracity of the Macroom story, all but one of the CMDR locos bar one are listed as scrapped in the late 20's/mid 30's which looks very much like a thinning out of small and obsolete locos by the GSR. The odd man out is an early disposal of CMDR No 1 in 1905 and mentioned as 'scrapped' in Colm Creedon's CMDR book.

Anything later would likely be noted by either Walter McGrath or Creedon as an unusual event of a bogged down loco was bound to attract their attention, a mention in 'de Paper' and at least a photo. I've heard the story before but no actual proof it's anything other than just a story.

A similar tale is told about a West Clare loco that went off the rails and a photo purportedly showing it before it sank beneath the bog, but its subsequent career and date with the scrapman years later is well documented.

Edited November 24, 2021 by minister_for_hardship

[Killian Keane]

Under the foreshore at Wisbech in England there is supposed to be a Bury 2-2-0 which became... well Buried, I say 2-2-0 the wheels had been coupled by pulleys and a leather belt 

[Westcorkrailway]

17 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I don't know about the veracity of the Macroom story, all but one of the CMDR locos bar one are listed as scrapped in the late 20's/mid 30's which looks very much like a thinning out of small and obsolete locos by the GSR. The odd man out is an early disposal of CMDR No 1 in 1905 and mentioned as 'scrapped' in Colm Creedon's CMDR book.

Anything later would likely be noted by either Walter McGrath or Creedon as an unusual event of a bogged down loco was bound to attract their attention, a mention in 'de Paper' and at least a photo. I've heard the story before but no actual proof it's anything other than just a story.

A similar tale is told about a West Clare loco that went off the rails and a photo purportedly showing it before it sank beneath the bog, but its subsequent career and date with the scrapman years later is well documented.

I would have thaugh that too, no mention of it in his book on the CMDR either. I reckon it’s just a tale….if I’m proved wrong I’d be staggered!

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

 

I've never heard of the Macroom story, nor the one of Russian symbols on sleepers!! (Sleepers wouldn't normally have any symbols on them...)

Something along the lines of the CB&CSR ordered a pile of sleepers from Russia (obviously sometime before a certain revolution) and some were stamped with the Russian imperial crest

[Galteemore]

The chairs may have been so stamped, or a symbol on them was so interpreted. Rumours of British-made Russian surplus were aplenty in that era- such as the fallacious idea that the RAF got its light blue uniforms from a batch that had been ordered by St Petersburg and were suddenly not required in 1918…..in a tangentially related point to the original topic, a few air forces have buried jets. The Australians buried a load of asbestos-ridden F-111s, and Saddam buried his Air Force to stop the US destroying it! The cautionary tale of the Burma Spitfires perhaps suggests that most stories of buried locos be treated with a pinch of salt…..https://news.sky.com/story/amp/burma-spitfire-mystery-is-solved-10454358

Edited November 24, 2021 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

3 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:Something along the lines of the CB&CSR ordered a pile of sleepers from Russia (obviously sometime before a certain revolution) and some were stamped with the Russian imperial crest

Sounds odd importing sleepers here from Russia……as does the imperial coat of arms depicted - on a sleeper! 
 

Is this an urban legend or is there evidence of it?

[minister_for_hardship]

17 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Sounds odd importing sleepers here from Russia……as does the imperial coat of arms depicted - on a sleeper! 
 

Is this an urban legend or is there evidence of it?

Something non railway that DOES have the Imperial Russian crest is indeed in Cork. A number of old cannons by the Marina.

As for the sleepers, unless a pic or an example surfaces colour me unconvinced.

Edited November 24, 2021 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Something non railway that DOES have the Imperial Russian crest is indeed in Cork. A number of old cannons by the Marina.

As for the sleepers, unless a pic or an example surfaces colour me unconvinced.

me too!

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Anyone have a 1900-1917 accounts for the CBSCR handy

 

again this was brought up at a presentation a few years ago…I THINK he said they were stamped on in blue ink if that helps any bit..if I could get a hold of him I would ask where who and how because to be fair to him, he knew what he was talking about. but for now add it to the CMDR tier of Irish railway legends

Edited November 24, 2021 by Westcorkrailway

[Galteemore]

If he can produce a photo of the sleepers with the snow still on them we’ll believe ! https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/handle/10871/20057

[minister_for_hardship]

Even looking at old maps of the alleged area, the land doesnt appear overly boggy, a quicksand that would swallow a whole loco, just flattish with shallow embankments and cuttings. The value of metal alone meant that if a loco could not be recovered whole it would be cut up where it lay and carted off piecemeal.

[Mayner]

21 hours ago, skinner75 said:

AFAIK, the ITG had to have asbestos removed from the cab walls of the B101 class they have at Carrick-on-Suir. It was blue asbestos I think, which isn't as bad to deal with as the fibrous variety.

The blue is considered to be the most dangerous form of asbestos established cause of certain cancers and lung disease among asbestos, construction and railway engineering workers. Widely used as a sprayed on insulation in streel framed buildings and railway locos and rolling stock during the 50s & 60s. BRCW Sulzers, Metrovicks, Park Royal and Laminates insulated with blue asbestos.

Came across it in churches, schools and department stores in Ireland, UK and NZ , straightforward but very expensive to remove on account of the level of control needed.

[minister_for_hardship]

On 24/11/2021 at 7:23 AM, David Holman said:

Fascinating! Had not come across that, but given the number of sink holes we now hear about, not surprised. There was also the urban myth of dozens of Stanier 8Fs being walled up in disused tunnels after the end of steam, in case of some doomsday scenario. These days, resurrecting them might be considered pretty terrible too...

Like some urban legends theres a grain of truth to them.

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/398/sweden-disbands-final-strategic-steam-reserve-locos/

[Blaine]

21 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Fascinating pictures! I wonder if there's a list anywhere of exactly what went in there?

Its detailed in the ITG's 'Traction and Travel' books, I know the 3rd edition has lots of info, published around 1997

There were a few proposals made on how to dispose of them, including the above mentioned placing inside a tunnel, offshore disposal at sea, 'controlled' dismantling locally and then burial of the removed Asbestos, and transporting the stock to England for incineration. The quarry was the cheapest and easiest option. Recall seeing pics when the quarry was drained a few years ago, the remains of the various coaches and railcar bodies were still visible

[WRENNEIRE]

Was there one buried called The Baldy Fella?
Askin for a friend 

[skinner75]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

The blue is considered to be the most dangerous form of asbestos established cause of certain cancers and lung disease among asbestos, construction and railway engineering workers. Widely used as a sprayed on insulation in streel framed buildings and railway locos and rolling stock during the 50s & 60s. BRCW Sulzers, Metrovicks, Park Royal and Laminates insulated with blue asbestos.

Came across it in churches, schools and department stores in Ireland, UK and NZ , straightforward but very expensive to remove on account of the level of control needed.

Did a bit of googling on it there & you are spot on. Very weird stuff - fibrous mineral, with really tiny particle size. Fascinating, but scary to think of how it was mined, handled & used before the health threats were discovered

[Broithe]

32 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Did a bit of googling on it there & you are spot on. Very weird stuff - fibrous mineral, with really tiny particle size. Fascinating, but scary to think of how it was mined, handled & used before the health threats were discovered

Although it has been taken reasonably seriously for over forty years, we are only just now (possibly) passing the peak of the annual deaths from it.

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, Broithe said:

Although it has been taken reasonably seriously for over forty years, we are only just now (possibly) passing the peak of the annual deaths from it.

Peak use of asbestos was between the 50s and the early 80s when the manufacture and new installation of the Ampiboles (Blue and Brown) asbestos was banned in the UK.

The peak in asbestos related deaths has been forecast to take place in five years since  2000 though the expected peak keeps getting pushed back as the disease and death rate continues to increase. 

Asbestos related cancers have a long latency period approx. 40 years since the date of exposure, tends to show up in people in their 70s and 80s so numbers likely to increase as life expectancy improved in most Western countries between the 1950s and 2010. Earlier generations of asbestos workers would have died off of other causes before the cancers appeared, a Shri Lankan colleague said that there was always a queue of people waiting outside the local asbestos factory on a Monday morning to replace the people that died the previous week.

Its basically worked its way way through the people that worked mining, manufacturing or installing asbestos up to the 70s, but some of the more hazardous forms are still about in buildings and structures with secondary exposures appearing among people who work in buildings that contain offices such as schools, hospitals, officeblocks, department stores built up to the mid 1980s. I make a reasonable living surveying and locating the stuff in 2021 having my first involvement in managing the stuff 30 years ago!

Edited November 25, 2021 by Mayner

[Barl]

15 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Peak use of asbestos was between the 50s and the early 80s when the manufacture and new installation of the Ampiboles (Blue and Brown) asbestos was banned in the UK.

The peak in asbestos related deaths has been forecast to take place in five years since  2000 though the expected peak keeps getting pushed back as the disease and death rate continues to increase. 

Asbestos related cancers have a long latency period approx. 40 years since the date of exposure, tends to show up in people in their 70s and 80s so numbers likely to increase as life expectancy improved in most Western countries between the 1950s and 2010. Earlier generations of asbestos workers would have died off of other causes before the cancers appeared, a Shri Lankan colleague said that there was always a queue of people waiting outside the local asbestos factory on a Monday morning to replace the people that died the previous week.

Its basically worked its way way through the people that worked mining, manufacturing or installing asbestos up to the 70s, but some of the more hazardous forms are still about in buildings and structures with secondary exposures appearing among people who work in buildings that contain offices such as schools, hospitals, officeblocks, department stores built up to the mid 1980s. I make a reasonable living surveying and locating the stuff in 2021 having my first involvement in managing the stuff 30 years ago!

Hi Mayner,

Wasn't there a bit of a scandal in NZ a few years back about asbestos insulation still being used in new locos purchased from China? I vaguely remember hearing about it when over there and the cost associated with removing and replacing it. 

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Peak use of asbestos was between the 50s and the early 80s when the manufacture and new installation of the Ampiboles (Blue and Brown) asbestos was banned in the UK.

The peak in asbestos related deaths has been forecast to take place in five years since  2000 though the expected peak keeps getting pushed back as the disease and death rate continues to increase. 

Asbestos related cancers have a long latency period approx. 40 years since the date of exposure, tends to show up in people in their 70s and 80s so numbers likely to increase as life expectancy improved in most Western countries between the 1950s and 2010. Earlier generations of asbestos workers would have died off of other causes before the cancers appeared, a Shri Lankan colleague said that there was always a queue of people waiting outside the local asbestos factory on a Monday morning to replace the people that died the previous week.

Its basically worked its way way through the people that worked mining, manufacturing or installing asbestos up to the 70s, but some of the more hazardous forms are still about in buildings and structures with secondary exposures appearing among people who work in buildings that contain offices such as schools, hospitals, officeblocks, department stores built up to the mid 1980s. I make a reasonable living surveying and locating the stuff in 2021 having my first involvement in managing the stuff 30 years ago!

From 68 to 71, I lived within sight of the dust plume from this asbestos mine, although we were almost always upwind - https://www.amiandos.eu/en/

Amusingly(?), 'amphibole' essentially means 'double entendre' in Greek...

Registered UK deaths mentioning asbestos seem to have subsided very slightly in the last couple of years, but other events may be masking the reality to some extent, of course.

[Jaz avalley]

On 25/11/2021 at 10:44 PM, Broithe said:

From 68 to 71, I lived within sight of the dust plume from this asbestos mine, although we were almost always upwind - https://www.amiandos.eu/en/

Amusingly(?), 'amphibole' essentially means 'double entendre' in Greek...

Registered UK deaths mentioning asbestos seem to have subsided very slightly in the last couple of years, but other events may be masking the reality to some extent, of course.

We have an outbuilding with 5 percent asbestos, we replaced the roof as it was starting to leak, left the walls as they were sound,the price for removing asbestos is scary nowadays, we don’t paint the walls as when the paint aged it would life the asbestos surface, we had to remove the roof ourselves as the new roof suppliers were not enamoured,we were careful to not smash and carefully pack,wear masks, wash hands, and if it had been blowy we may have dampened, but luckily weather was as good as it gets. 
Surprisingly a straw roof filler in another outbuilding had asbestos in it again low level fairly inert,I luckily had the old paperwork passed on from the ex owner, he had had trouble selling the property the asbestos in the outbuildings likely made it harder for him to sell,but luckily cheaper for us to buy,the house is asbestos free.

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, Jaz avalley said:

We have an outbuilding with 5 percent asbestos, we replaced the roof as it was starting to leak, left the walls as they were sound,the price for removing asbestos is scary nowadays, we don’t paint the walls as when the paint aged it would life the asbestos surface, we had to remove the roof ourselves as the new roof suppliers were not enamoured,we were careful to not smash and carefully pack,wear masks, wash hands, and if it had been blowy we may have dampened, but luckily weather was as good as it gets. 
Surprisingly a straw roof filler in another outbuilding had asbestos in it again low level fairly inert,I luckily had the old paperwork passed on from the ex owner, he had had trouble selling the property the asbestos in the outbuildings likely made it harder for him to sell,but luckily cheaper for us to buy,the house is asbestos free.

There is a product called Fiberlock applied by low pressure airless spray which is used to encapsulate asbestos.     https://www.fiberlock.com/product/abc-asbestos-binding-compound/

Fiberlock is often used to encapsulate or seal cement asbestos before painting. Cement asbestos is relatively low risk unless you grind, cut or drill it with power tools or try to clean it with a high pressure water blaster.

Loose asbestos insulation is considered to be high risk material but not a problem if left undisturbed.