Any major info about the IE 201 Class?

[Broithe]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/routine-safety-failure-blamed-for-train-crash-26195647.html

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, Broithe said:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/routine-safety-failure-blamed-for-train-crash-26195647.html

The 201 Class did a lot of damage to the 90lb ex-1920s MGWR rail still in use on the Mayo & Galway Roads in the 90s, the 071s did much the same for the 85Lb rail still in use between Mulllingar and Sligo.

The Knockcrokery derailment triggered an independent review by an international rail consultant who were shocked by both the standard of track maintenance by the Athlone Division and heavy axleload locos like the 201s running at relatively high speed on such light rail put down during the 1920s

The report was complimentary about the Waterford Division standard of maintenance of point and crossing work and it maintenance of Bullhead track on the Waterford-Rosslare Line with some rail dating from the 1906 opening of the route.

Its likely that the lines with ex-GSWR bullhead track in the Waterford Division were better resourced than the Athlone Division in terms of labour as bullhead track with its chairs and keys was more labour intensive to maintain than jointed flat bottom which received more cursory maintenance. I

[connollystn]

The damage caused to the railway tracks by both the 201 and 071 locomotives was due to poor infrastructure. The reason that there weren't a lot more incidents was due to the knowledge of the locomotive drivers who knew where the trouble spots were and operated their' trains accordingly. From what I can recall from my youth is that the sleepers [ties] were in a very poor state and were barely capable of holding the tracks in place. The people running CIE are civil servants not railway people that's why the network is so bad.

[228RiverOwenboy]

Speaking of incidents and accidents, has there been any other situations involved with the 201? I'm aware 225 once derailed in Mayo, 233 had a failed bearing, 224 bent, 230 caught fire, 211 was in the Knockcroghery derailment...And what else? 

[flange lubricator]

202 was involved in a collision with BGM 182 in the late 90’’s 182 had a buffer replaced and 202 had front end damage resulting in a repair and repaint at one end. 

[h gricer]

On Wednesday morning 9th April 2003 215 was involved in a spectacular derailment at Islandbridge outside Heuston Station while shunting the A/B MK2s, by 11.00 the loco was leaning at a 45degree angle, 2 enormous Mc Nally's road cranes were brought in to stabilize the situation and prevent the locomotive from toppling over, when the H&S crowd arrived they requested ''sightseers and press photographers'' to leave the scene, not before photos appearing in the following morning's tabloid newspapers.

[ttc0169]

13 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Speaking of incidents and accidents, has there been any other situations involved with the 201? I'm aware 225 once derailed in Mayo, 233 had a failed bearing, 224 bent, 230 caught fire, 211 was in the Knockcroghery derailment...And what else? 

225 derailed on a set of facing points on arrival into Claremorris hauling the 12:45 Heuston-Westport service in the early 2000s and in 2010 was involved in a fatal accident with a tractor at an accommodation crossing between Castlerea and Roscommon,destroying the tractor in the process-the locomotive being out of traffic for 9 years before being rebuilt and returned to traffic two years ago. 
 

[ttc0169]

232 was the first 201 to work a passenger service in multiple with 078 when it worked an RPSI special to Cork and Kerry in October 2018,

 

 

216 was the first 201 class locomotive to work between Ennis and Athenry on the WRC hauling the Belmond grand Hibernian Mk3 set-second photo shows the train having passed through Ardrahan level crossing heading for Athenry and then Dundalk

220 was the first 201 to operate on the Ballina branch in November 1996 after the Moy bridge was rebuilt to take the heavier locomotives-it worked a Mk3 set to Ballina.  

 

 

[228RiverOwenboy]

Good evening everyone, I'd like to thank everyone here for providing some crucial information to my ongoing project.

I've just realized something...were mirrors installed on the 201 class? 

[hexagon789]

12 minutes ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

I've just realized something...were mirrors installed on the 201 class? 

Yes, definitely.

Well used with Mk4 and D-D sets, I'm guessing also with Mk3 P-Ps given the mirrors on their DTs. Not sure whose responsibility the doors were on normal Mk3 sets but I'm not sure that's relevant.

[hexagon789]

On 15/12/2021 at 12:29 AM, Mayner said:

The 201 Class did a lot of damage to the 90lb ex-1920s MGWR rail still in use on the Mayo & Galway Roads in the 90s, the 071s did much the same for the 85Lb rail still in use between Mulllingar and Sligo.

The Knockcrokery derailment triggered an independent review by an international rail consultant who were shocked by both the standard of track maintenance by the Athlone Division and heavy axleload locos like the 201s running at relatively high speed on such light rail put down during the 1920s

And of course the number of TSRs grew and grew right up until the late-1990s when a lot of relaying was done and the speed ceiling on the Western routes was raised then from 70 to 80mph and on the Sligo Road from 70 to 75mph.

Quite scary to think about the unofficial speeds attained on some of those less than perfect sections of track. I wonder if Irish Rail drivers had a similar attitude to those in Britain in the days before widespread speed monitoring. I believe IR had recorders on the 071s and later locos, not sure about the older GMs but did these dissuade drivers from pushing speeds at all?

In Britain the attitude was often that exceeding linespeed by a moderate amount was tolerated if it was ever discovered but not that of exceeding PSRs or TSRs by any significant margin.

[228RiverOwenboy]

2 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Yes, definitely.

Well used with Mk4 and D-D sets, I'm guessing also with Mk3 P-Ps given the mirrors on their DTs. Not sure whose responsibility the doors were on normal Mk3 sets but I'm not sure that's relevant.

Ah, so that explains it, the mirrors were used for checking if all the slam-doors rolling stock were closed before departure...Or something like that...

Edited December 18, 2021 by 228RiverOwenboy

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

Quite scary to think about the unofficial speeds attained on some of those less than perfect sections of track. I wonder if Irish Rail drivers had a similar attitude to those in Britain in the days before widespread speed monitoring. I believe IR had recorders on the 071s and later locos, not sure about the older GMs but did these dissuade drivers from pushing speeds at all?

In Britain the attitude was often that exceeding linespeed by a moderate amount was tolerated if it was ever discovered but not that of exceeding PSRs or TSRs by any significant margin.

I had a footplate run on one occasion when the official speed for the section was exceeded by over 20 mph!

[h gricer]

3 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Good evening everyone, I'd like to thank everyone here for providing some crucial information to my ongoing project.

I've just realized something...were mirrors installed on the 201 class? 

Yes wing mirrors were installed on 212 as seen here https://www.facebook.com/groups/1749560248594378/permalink/2591484944401900/

[228RiverOwenboy]

Slightly off topic - but would anyone have any diagrams/blueprints of some of the Mark 3 rolling stock, such as the EGV and the Control car? I may model one soon 

14 minutes ago, h gricer said:

Yes wing mirrors were installed on 212 as seen here https://www.facebook.com/groups/1749560248594378/permalink/2591484944401900/

Ah, fantastic! I wonder when these were both installed and removed...

[K801]

On 14/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Would anyone know what 201 involved in this incident would be? It's a 201 that hauled a Mark 3 set which derailed in Knockcroghery...Any other info about the incident, such as the cause?

There was an ITG railtour that day and we had to bus around it if I remember correctly 

[hexagon789]

6 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Ah, so that explains it, the mirrors were used for checking if all the slam-doors rolling stock were closed before departure...Or something like that...

The electrific sliding doors on Mk3 p-p, 4 & D-D stock certainly as the doors are all controlled by the driver. Normal IC Mk3 sets I believe the guard controlled the doors - at least that was the original method, it may have changed when the 201s appeared.

Slam-doors I presume would have been the guards responsibility to ensure they were closed.

 

5 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Slightly off topic - but would anyone have any diagrams/blueprints of some of the Mark 3 rolling stock, such as the EGV and the Control car? I may model one soon 

Yes, can PM you.

[ttc0169]

8 hours ago, K801 said:

There was an ITG railtour that day and we had to bus around it if I remember correctly 

The railtour was rerouted back via Claremorris to Athenry on that day of the derailment. 

[Mayner]

On 15/12/2021 at 1:52 PM, connollystn said:

The damage caused to the railway tracks by both the 201 and 071 locomotives was due to poor infrastructure. The reason that there weren't a lot more incidents was due to the knowledge of the locomotive drivers who knew where the trouble spots were and operated their' trains accordingly. From what I can recall from my youth is that the sleepers [ties] were in a very poor state and were barely capable of holding the tracks in place. The people running CIE are civil servants not railway people that's why the network is so bad.

The railways got into a bad state during the 1990s because of policy decision that there would be no further State investment in the railways under the Governments 1984 "Building on Reality" economic policy.

CIE was allowed to complete the Cork Line CWR & CTC upgrade and MK3 Intercity Coach project, but were otherwise expected to fund infrastructure, locomotive and rolling stock renewals/replacement from its own resources.

In return CIEs road and rail operations was separated into 3 three operating companies (expected to compete with each other) with greater operational autonomy, and essential loss making passenger services received an annual (capped) subsidy rather than the Government subsidising CIEs losses.

Initially IE was much more pro-active in promoting rail and improve services, hiring NIR railcars for the Greystones Shuttle and Cork Cobh services, winning new freight flows such as Mollasses, Grain, Pulpwood, swapping B201s Class locos for MK2 coaches to improve the fleet, but the strains soon started to show as IE struggled to stay within its budget and operate a train service as infrastructure, locos and stock wore out.

The "Building on Reality" policy if continued would have lead to the gradual run-down and closure of rail services over a 20-30 year period as operating assets wore out.

The MK3 Intercity programme was cut back the last 24 MK3 coaches were built as Push-Pull Trailers for Dublin Outer Suburban Services when the Government rejected IEs proposal to build a fleet of railcars for suburban and branch line services.

The 1990s upgrades were mainly funded by the EU as part of Irelands negotiations, at the time the Kildare Suburban (1993) and the Enterprise upgrade were presented by the Government as either or schemes, there was still uncertainty over the future of the railways (the Government was fed up with infighting between CIE/IE management and the Unions) up to the time of the 2001 Strategic Rail review.

 

Going back to the MK3 Coaches with two person operation the guard is responsible for ensuring the train was safe to depart which included ensuring the doors were locked.

With the MK3 Push Pull Sets the guard originally controlled the doors from a panel in the coaches, but later travelled in the loco while propelling after a 121 de-railed and mounted the platform ramp while propelling a South bound Push-Pull set through Balbriggan. 201s appear to have took over Dublin Outersuburban Push Pull Duties at some stage in 2001-2

[228RiverOwenboy]

Would anyone know the dates of when the entirety (Except 201 herself) of the 201 Class were delivered? Apparently, on the 24th March 1995, 228, 229, 230 and 231 were unloaded on North Wall Quay Extension, 231, 229 were hauled to Inchicore by 157, 228 and 230 were hauled by 143 to Inchicore

4 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

The electrific sliding doors on Mk3 p-p, 4 & D-D stock certainly as the doors are all controlled by the driver. Normal IC Mk3 sets I believe the guard controlled the doors - at least that was the original method, it may have changed when the 201s appeared.

Slam-doors I presume would have been the guards responsibility to ensure they were closed.

 

Yes, can PM you.

Oh, and yes please, I've been looking for blueprints for a long time. Thank you in advance!

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Would anyone know the dates of when the entirety (Except 201 herself) of the 201 Class were delivered? Apparently, on the 24th March 1995, 228, 229, 230 and 231 were unloaded on North Wall Quay Extension, 231, 229 were hauled to Inchicore by 157, 228 and 230 were hauled by 143 to Inchicore

I can check the IRRS Journals later for that information.

 

2 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Oh, and yes please, I've been looking for blueprints for a long time. Thank you in advance!

I'll PM you

[228RiverOwenboy]

42 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

I can check the IRRS Journals later for that information.

 

I'll PM you

Much appreciated, thank you!

[hexagon789]

On 19/12/2021 at 1:39 PM, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Much appreciated, thank you!

Sent you a PM, will try and check the journals for the other info tomorrow.

[h gricer]

On 19/12/2021 at 10:22 AM, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Would anyone know the dates of when the entirety (Except 201 herself) of the 201 Class were delivered? Apparently, on the 24th March 1995, 228, 229, 230 and 231 were unloaded on North Wall Quay Extension, 231, 229 were hauled to Inchicore by 157, 228 and 230 were hauled by 143 to Inchicore

Oh, and yes please, I've been looking for blueprints for a long time. Thank you in advance!

Just over a month after 201 arrived at Dublin Airport in June 1994, 202 and 203 arrived at the Ocean Pier 21st July 1994, 183 haul 203 up Alexandra Rd to North Wall and Aclass 036 hauled 202 to North Wall, these were the only 2 201class locomotives to arrived at the Ocean Pier, the rest arrived at North Wall Quay Extension.

204 205 210 211 arrived at North Wall Quay Extension 20th September 1994 on board the ship Stellamare, 182 hauled them from the quayside. The Stellamare came to a sad end when it capsized in the Hudson River in 2003. 162+182 hauled 205 211 to Inchicore, 162+182 hauled 204 210 to Inchicore.

6th October 1994 212 213 214 arrived at North Wall Quay Extension on board the ship Plitvice, they were unload and sat on the quayside overnight and hauled to Inchicore the following day.

31st January 1995 the ship Stellanova arrived with 223, 149 hauled it from the quayside, the above are from my photographic notes., March 24th 25th deliveries are documented in the 208 and 209 thread.

Regards

hg

[railfan222]

The 201s are a very fine locomotive I must say.

 

It is a shame that Irish Rail were slow to upgrade all bridges to take the 201 locomotive's weight. Also I read it in a 2007 Railway Herald magazine that the situation of Irish Rail's network required a high degree of reliability to operate effectively and as such the company decided to move away from the loco hauled approach.

 

Also it is stated that the scheme of having the MK4s operate with power cars at both ends of the sets was discarded and instead repainted 201s with DVTs were introduced. Odd to think IE originally wanted to run the MK4s with 2 power cars. I must say Irish Rail really care for their 201s since they put them to use on the MK4s.

 

 

[railfan222]

Hi all

 

I thought I would discuss the topic of couplers on the 201s:

 

All of the push/pull fitted 201s (including NIR 208 and 209) all came with buckeyes fitted onto the long couplers. When all 22 IE 201s were commissioned, IE took off the buckeyes and only fitted them on if a 201 was going to work a Mark 3 Push/Pull.

When a push/pull fitted 201 would be working a non push/pull trains or freight train, They would wear red couplers on both ends held on with a screw holder as seen in the photo I took in 2020. Please note that this photo was taken using the zoom function of the camera I used then, 

 

In the 2nd photo I took in 2021 shows that the red screw couplers on the push/pull 201s wear when not working push/pull trains were replaced with these blue couplers. 

 

Regards Kian O'Leary

[228RiverOwenboy]

Hello everyone, and happy 2022. 

I just want to thank everyone for the information given to me, as this really helps me with the current project I have been working on for a while. 

I have just realized that at some point the 201s that were in the Intercity Silver/Green have had their undercarriage painted into a dark grey rather than the former ghost grey. Was the reasoning similar to why the A Class were quickly put into a different livery due to the ghost grey being very vulnerable to dirt?

Here's 218 freshly painted into her current livery, the Intercity Silver/Green. Note that the undercarriage was originally the ghost grey I previously mentioned. (Credit: Brain Solomon)

And then here's 223 the more current dark grey undercarriage rather than a ghost grey... (Credit: unknown)

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Hello everyone, and happy 2022. 

I just want to thank everyone for the information given to me, as this really helps me with the current project I have been working on for a while. 

I have just realized that at some point the 201s that were in the Intercity Silver/Green have had their undercarriage painted into a dark grey rather than the former ghost grey. Was the reasoning similar to why the A Class were quickly put into a different livery due to the ghost grey being very vulnerable to dirt?

Here's 218 freshly painted into her current livery, the Intercity Silver/Green. Note that the undercarriage was originally the ghost grey I previously mentioned. (Credit: Brain Solomon)

And then here's 223 the more current dark grey undercarriage rather than a ghost grey... (Credit: unknown)

They did that around the time they started changing the logos to the new “origami” IR logo as some may call it , the undercarriage would turn this colour anyway due to grime and dirt, probably just a practical move and makes the loco look much better

[JasonB]

2 hours ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

I have just realized that at some point the 201s that were in the Intercity Silver/Green have had their undercarriage painted into a dark grey rather than the former ghost grey. Was the reasoning similar to why the A Class were quickly put into a different livery due to the ghost grey being very vulnerable to dirt?

Makes sense longterm. The underside picks up dirt quite quickly, and was really noticeable on the 201 due to the light colour, especially on freshly painted locos. 

The darker grey, actually suits the overall livery better in my opinion. 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, JasonB said:

 

The darker grey, actually suits the overall livery better in my opinion. 

can’t wait for this livery variant of the 201 gets released in model form 

[jhb171achill]

Is this now the normal 071 grey?

When the 26 class railcars first appeared they also had pale grey bogies - I thought they looked odd, but like a “silver” tin van forty years before, got very dirty very quickly.

This seems an improvement to the 201 livery.

[BosKonay]

Great photos of how wide the bogies should be. 

[murphaph]

Agreed. 218 looks especially powerful sitting on it's big wide bogies. Impressive beasts.

[Noel]

On 7/12/2021 at 3:26 PM, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Good afternoon everyone, I'm currently making plans on a historical video of the history of the 201 class, and I was wondering if there was anything noticeable about them, and if there was anything major that would be crucial to add into the script, or hopefully some misconceptions that could be corrected.

I can only remember when I first saw a 201 in Killarney back in 1995 and got talking to the driver. He was not impressed with comments like 'This computerised heap is unreliable and always thinks its broken down'. He told me the 071s were on constant rescue duty and some cork trains changed back to 071s because they were analogue (for that time) and reliable workhorses. I vaguely remember phrases such as 'how this heap of 5h*t got ordered is a complete mystery as it spends more time in the workshops than hauling.' and 'disaster in the Irish climate'. But they obviously got the problems sorted as they've been running for the past 27 years. The most impressive thing for me about 201 was they way the first one was delivered to Dublin airport by air on the big Antonov. Personally as a prototype it is visually the most boring looking loco CIE/IR have ever operated (ie the long peat briquette). But an important workhorse in the past 25 years. Hard to believe the 071s are still going strong such has been the superb maintenance and overhauls of the class at Inchicore over the decades that kept them going.

[murphaph]

They had other teething problems like squeaky bogies. You can here the squeak in some cab ride videos. It must have been really annoying as a driver but I think it was also addressed by EMD. It would be fabulous to see the whole fleet back in service on freight duties over the coming years. More potential than ever thanks to Brexit.