Hydrogen powered 071

[Newtoncork]

Very interesting!

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/iarnrod-eireann-and-latvia-s-digas-to-trial-europe

[Westcorkrailway]

Re-engined 071s….how long are they going to be on the rails!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Re-engined 071s….how long are they going to be on the rails!

If powered by hydrogen, brocolli juice, fairy dust or eco-friendly, zero emissions, organic and vegan pigeon eyelashes, or powered by zen-approved spirituality or PC-friendly, and fully inclusive interpretative dance; these locomotives have OTHER components which are, ehh, entering the twilight of their lives.

[DJ Dangerous]

How dare you two?

With a few new bits and bobs, the 071's will outlast all of us old farts, and the kids like @Westcorkrailway will be worrying that the 071's will outlast them.

[jhb171achill]

32 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

How dare you two?

With a few new bits and bobs, the 071's will outlast all of us old farts, and the kids like @Westcorkrailway will be worrying that the 071's will outlast them.

 

I hope so. In truth, every single thing on railway wheels which had succeeded them (and apologies for being an ancient bore), interests me somewhat (ok, a lot) less than a 1979 washing machine which doesn’t work…..

So, while I prefer 141/121s, B101s, and (better still) steam; 071s appeared in my late teens, so I still see them as “new” engines…….

Edited September 14, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Broithe]

 

4 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Re-engined 071s….how long are they going to be on the rails!

They're currently reengining the remaining B-52s.

The last new one was delivered in 1962.

[DJ Dangerous]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I hope so. In truth, every single thing on railway wheels which had succeeded them (and apologies for being an ancient bore), interests me somewhat (ok, a lot) less than a 1979 washing machine which doesn’t work…..

 

Wait...

You have kept a broken washing machine for 44 years?

 

7 hours ago, Broithe said:

 

They're currently reengining the remaining B-52s.

The last new one was delivered in 1962.

 

Good stuff, what a Whammy. That Cosmic Thing will be Bouncing Off The Satelites around this Wild Planet for years...

[irishrailways52]

does the track have AI intelligence yet?

[Metrovik]

16 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

How dare you two?

With a few new bits and bobs, the 071's will outlast all of us old farts, and the kids like @Westcorkrailway will be worrying that the 071's will outlast them.

Nice to see they aren't just scrapping them (funds permitting) and that I'll be able to keep on seeing them as I grow

[leslie10646]

Isn’t the best way to preserve the 071s to rip out the Diesel engine (good as it is) and stick a pantograph on the roof, put some electrical wizardry in its place and, Hey Presto, you have an electric loco fit for another thirty years.

I’m assuming that the All-Ireland Plan goes ahead and we have wires almost everywhere. 

For the non- wired bits - stick a battery in a few of them.

PS if IE takes up this splendid idea, my lawyers will be in touch, re consultancy fees.

[MD220]

If I read the article correctly they aren't going to re engine the loco, but will modify its current engine to run on hydrogen. Hopefully this won't alter the noise made by these magnificent machines!

[DJ Dangerous]

I'd assume that the engine mod is something like this, and that the enhanced 071 sound, as with the Corolla, will provoke an increase in blood pressure to ones nether regions.

 

 

[Dempsey]

I think this is deadly. Instead of all that EV nonsense which cost more to produce in emissions then regular combustion the likes of conversion of regular engine to fuels like these will help offset the emissions they have already produced over their lifetime. Jcb has done similar tests and proof of concept work themselves. 

Plus it would be a true testament to these locomotives if they served the network past 100

[Westcorkrailway]

5 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

I think this is deadly. Instead of all that EV nonsense which cost more to produce in emissions then regular combustion the likes of conversion of regular engine to fuels like these will help offset the emissions they have already produced over their lifetime. Jcb has done similar tests and proof of concept work themselves. 

Plus it would be a true testament to these locomotives if they served the network past 100

Your right. If regular engines could be converted to hydrogen with relitive ease on tractors, trucks or even cars. It would cut out the huge proportion of co2 burned in producing a new engine while making current engines last a little bit longer as well as be great for the environment 

[Dempsey]

Plus we don't have the power generation ability as a nation to supply the draw of power required to charge an electric vehicle for everyone. 

It would be the ultimate recycling or green eco friendly or insert term here move to use and convert modes of transport that have already been produced. 

[ttc0169]

Locomotive 085 is rumoured to be the test bed locomotive. 

[murphaph]

3 hours ago, Dempsey said:

Plus we don't have the power generation ability as a nation to supply the draw of power required to charge an electric vehicle for everyone. 

We will though. Ireland aims to have a whopping 37GW of installed offshore wind energy by 2050. That's 31GW more than we currently use and doesn't include any other onshore sources or other potential offshore sources like tidal. Ireland is a literal goldmine of renewable energy and it will make the country strategically important to our European partners. Ireland already generates getting on for half its electricity from renewables, mostly wind. The world's largest flywheel has been installed in Moneypoint to help stabilise the grid frequency as more renewables are added and tradtional turbine mass is taken offline. More of these flywheels are due to be installed. They weigh in excess of 100 tonnes and rotate at 3,000 RPM in a vacuum. Very exciting times ahead I believe.

[MD220]

The idea of using hydrogen as a clean fuel in internal combustion engines is great in theory as the only emission, as it burns, is water; however the problem lies in the creation of the hydrogen in the first place. Manufacturing hydrogen (by electrolysis of water) is hugely inefficient, requiring a lot of electrical energy. This can be accomplished using renewable energy sources, so called Green Hydrogen, but the amount of green hydrogen available currently is minimal. I still think its important to explore this idea of using clean fuels to run old technology but until an efficient method of creating hydrogen is developed I don't think we're really any better off.

[murphaph]

Personally I see no future for hydrogen in small vehicles. They will all be battery electric. The trend is clear to see there. Even Toyota which was clinging to hydrogen is heading the BEV route. Hydrogen has a transitional role to play in HGVs I reckon, but these too will eventually be BEVs. Only stuff like shipping and perhaps aviation will rely on hydrogen long term if you ask me. Hydrogen however can be used as a replacement for natural gas in heavy industry especially and this is where I reckon most of it will end up within a generation.

[Mayner]

7 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Your right. If regular engines could be converted to hydrogen with relitive ease on tractors, trucks or even cars. It would cut out the huge proportion of co2 burned in producing a new engine while making current engines last a little bit longer as well as be great for the environment 

Its being done in New Zealand one transport company is trailing a dual-fuel diesel-hydrogen truck for long haul work using the existing engine https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131659022/southlandbased-transport-company-launches-dual-fuel-truck-powered-by-diesel-and-hydrogen-gas while hydrogen diesel conversions are being trialled on short haul waste disposal and civil engineering work in Auckland. Meanwhile Huyandi is pushing fuel cell technology with its Xcient range of trucks https://www.hyundai.co.nz/trucks/xcient/fuel-cell?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9-qCsqywgQMV_R-DAx2MtAs8EAAYASAAEgJJKfD_BwE

The fuel is carried in cassette/container mounted behind the cab on the diesel conversions, probably need a fuel tender (not unlike the Union Pacific Gas Turbines) for a diesel loco to run from the West of Ireland to Waterford and back.

Don't think there is the traffic density to justify main line electrification in Ireland, though battery for passenger trains seems to be a no-brainer after all a Drumm Battery Train managed Amiens St-Gorey and back 90 years ago, before introducing battery trains into regular service on Dublin suburban duties.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Mayner

[Broithe]

All new technologies look rubbish at the start.

Imagine being a witness to the Wright brothers' first flight...

...and yet, fifty years later, there were jet airliners.

Some things will work, and some things won't.

 

[Dempsey]

I'm not saying hydrogen is the answer but I think in this age we can create a fuel to use in a combustion engine that would produce zero emissions, using vehicles already in existence without spending six times more emissions to build an EV, hybrid waste of time

[DJ Dangerous]

14 hours ago, Dempsey said:

I think this is deadly. Instead of all that EV nonsense which cost more to produce in emissions then regular combustion the likes of conversion of regular engine to fuels like these will help offset the emissions they have already produced over their lifetime. Jcb has done similar tests and proof of concept work themselves. 

Plus it would be a true testament to these locomotives if they served the network past 100

 

You seem to have a slight anti-EVE agenda, and I'd like to see your claims on EVE's producing more emissions throughout their entire life cycle than ICE vehicles, supported with a few links.

Not to opinions or Facebook, but to interviews with scientists, or the scientific research.

From my own reading, EVE's on the whole produce less emissions than ICE's in the majority of cases, with some exceptions.

There's a fairly easy to digest piece here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51977625

It's verifiable as opposed to opinion-based.

But to make it more graphic and easier to visualise, still, as I've seen how dirty mining for rare earth minerals can be, can anybody say that oil drilling and refining is clean?

We'll have to accept a little polution along the way, there is no zero-pollution solution, but we also need to be responsible regarding misinformation like "spending six times more emissions to build an EV, hybrid waste of time".

Drifting slightly off-topic, so going back to liquid hydrogen, I feel that our future transport fuel consumption will need to be mixed.

As @murphaph says, different methods of transport will require different fuels.

We have an electric van for work. We went for the cheaper battery with lower autonomy. It was advertised at 280km autonomy but sensible driving gets 300km per charge.

That same technology, perfect for our van, may not work in something larger and heavier, so diversity and innovation will be required.

Sails are being trialled on ocean-going vessels at the moment, and appear (trials are ongoing) to be reducing fuel consumption.

We may see a mix in the future of ICE's, EVE's, HCE's, alternative fuels, hydrogen fuel cells, electric hybrids, and with a bit of luck, we'll see an expansion in the use of mass transit systems like buses and trains where possible.

Heaven forbid that people would start walking and cycling for short trips of a km or two!

That's a mindset that needs to be corrected, not a fuel issue. When I look down at my own belly, and I doubt that I'm alone, I wish I had more excuses to walk or cycle a bit.

Can anybody else here (without a medical condition) say that they would benefit from less 2km cycles?

Edited September 17, 2023 by DJ Dangerous

[NIRCLASS80]

Having previously worked in the automotive industry in 2019 a manufacturer carried out a study on the carbon footprint of a 2 litre diesel saloon and their electric saloon.

Both vehicles carrying out 12000 miles per year the crossover point at which the electric vehicle became greener was year 11 based on the batteries still functioning at 80% performance, which is highly optimistic!

These are the facts from one manufacturer. 

[Horsetan]

I'm still using this stuff when I fill up my Citroën 

[DJ Dangerous]

31 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Having previously worked in the automotive industry in 2019 a manufacturer carried out a study on the carbon footprint of a 2 litre diesel saloon and their electric saloon.

Both vehicles carrying out 12000 miles per year the crossover point at which the electric vehicle became greener was year 11 based on the batteries still functioning at 80% performance, which is highly optimistic!

These are the facts from one manufacturer. 

 

Any chance of a link to the study? That would make for a great read.

[NIRCLASS80]

9 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Any chance of a link to the study? That would make for a great read.

Sorry but on this occasion this was a highly confidential document. They don’t want you reading it. 

[murphaph]

The only real difference between a BEV and an ICE is the power train. The electric motor/transmission contains far less "complicated stuff" than an engine block/head/transmission. In 2019 there were no lithium iron phosphate batteries in production vehicles. These are now commonplace. We have even figured out a way to use sodium (even more abundant) as a replacement for iron. A 2019 study is already out of date to be honest.

Batteries are getting lighter, cheaper, more energy dense and requiring fewer rare earth metals with every passing year. They also will very likely last to 80% after 11 years thanks largely to modern thermal regulation (for example generation 1 Nissan Leafs had no thermal regulation at all, causing the batteries to degrade much much faster than batteries in current production vehicles do). 

Batteries are also highly recyclable. Almost all the material inside a lead acid battery is recovered during recycling and the latest EV batteries can be recycled using similar techniques. 

These studies are essentially comparing the pinnacle of fossil fuel burning engines, refined for well over a century at this stage (and still only delivering max 50% or so thermal efficiency), with an emerging technology that has only just begun the same journey of refinement. 

Personally I am quite confident we'll see 1000km range batteries in the next five years at the latest and with 10-80% charging times that rival filling up on the forecourt.

It's all academic anyway at this stage because there is no turning back now. No major mass manufacturer is persisting with internal combustion at this stage. No significant money is being spent on developing a next generation of ICEs. They have all pretty much accepted that cars and light commercials will be battery powered going forward.

[Bob229]

Great discussion here, there will be a variety of power sources for transport I don't think electric is the only answer for aircraft sustainable fuels is the only way, battery range is improving for cars and will develop further with solid state batteries due in the next few years.  Will be interesting to see how the 071 hydrogen test will develop 

[murphaph]

53 minutes ago, Bob229 said:

Great discussion here, there will be a variety of power sources for transport I don't think electric is the only answer for aircraft sustainable fuels is the only way, battery range is improving for cars and will develop further with solid state batteries due in the next few years.  Will be interesting to see how the 071 hydrogen test will develop 

Indeed. I actually don't see much of a long-term use case in Ireland for hydrogen combustion engines in rail transport. I think we will use battery-electric tech with islands of overhead electrification and at termini to allow the batteries to recharge when under the wires. Ireland is a small country with an even smaller rail network. I would be surprised if this is not where we go (we are already going there with DART+), gradually extending the OHLE until eventually the batteries can be dispensed with, line by line.

I see a use case for hydrogen re-engining in the vastness of the US or Australia or Russia or whatever, where OHLE is going to be very difficult to justify for a handful of freight trains a day. I suspect it is no accident that a GM/EMD was sought out as the test bed by this company. They know their markets are mostly not going to be in Europe.

[Bob229]

Agree the hydrogen re-engining is not the solution here but is a option for freight services, I don't see all the network been OHLE so battery-electric for those parts of the network.  Big market in the USA if the hydrogen re-engining goes well

[hurricanemk1c]

Batteries will struggle in rail operation, particularly for freight. If you think of the weight of batteries currently required to move a car at a sensible speed, what about a 780 tonne train up to 75mph? Operating over a busier and busier network where acceleration becomes more and more important, battery tech for large, heavy modes of transport I don't think will be mature enough. A US battery loco was over double the weight of a 201.

Yes there's an area for them (shunting ops in yards for example) but I don't believe any real distance could be sensibly covered. And bi-mode locos/units while in theory a clever idea, just means you are always hauling equipment around that you don't need at that point in time.

[irishrailways52]

whilst electrification definitely is the long term answer it will take years to electrify the railways. just look at the replacement of semaphores. light signals where a thing in Ireland long before diesel and we still have some semaphores in operation.

[Dempsey]

On 17/9/2023 at 10:08 AM, DJ Dangerous said:

 

You seem to have a slight anti-EVE agenda, and I'd like to see your claims on EVE's producing more emissions throughout their entire life cycle than ICE vehicles, supported with a few links.

Not to opinions or Facebook, but to interviews with scientists, or the scientific research.

From my own reading, EVE's on the whole produce less emissions than ICE's in the majority of cases, with some exceptions.

There's a fairly easy to digest piece here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51977625

It's verifiable as opposed to opinion-based.

But to make it more graphic and easier to visualise, still, as I've seen how dirty mining for rare earth minerals can be, can anybody say that oil drilling and refining is clean?

We'll have to accept a little polution along the way, there is no zero-pollution solution, but we also need to be responsible regarding misinformation like "spending six times more emissions to build an EV, hybrid waste of time".

Drifting slightly off-topic, so going back to liquid hydrogen, I feel that our future transport fuel consumption will need to be mixed.

As @murphaph says, different methods of transport will require different fuels.

We have an electric van for work. We went for the cheaper battery with lower autonomy. It was advertised at 280km autonomy but sensible driving gets 300km per charge.

That same technology, perfect for our van, may not work in something larger and heavier, so diversity and innovation will be required.

Sails are being trialled on ocean-going vessels at the moment, and appear (trials are ongoing) to be reducing fuel consumption.

We may see a mix in the future of ICE's, EVE's, HCE's, alternative fuels, hydrogen fuel cells, electric hybrids, and with a bit of luck, we'll see an expansion in the use of mass transit systems like buses and trains where possible.

Heaven forbid that people would start walking and cycling for short trips of a km or two!

That's a mindset that needs to be corrected, not a fuel issue. When I look down at my own belly, and I doubt that I'm alone, I wish I had more excuses to walk or cycle a bit.

Can anybody else here (without a medical condition) say that they would benefit from less 2km cycles?

I'll try go back and find the article for you @DJ Dangerous. But just to clarify my position, I think technology like this would be of more benefit as like I have stated we would be converting various vehicles already in existence environmentally. 

[murphaph]

I would agree that conversion of large and expensive ICEs to hydrogen will make sense in many cases, including in the case of diesel electric locomotives. I would be extremely surprised if the same was true for the internal combustion engines fitted to cars and light commercials. Even now very many such engines can be fitted for LPG which is cleaner and cheaper, but how many people actually have that conversion done? Not very many. But I will be pleasantly surprised if it is viable as any alternative to fossil fuels is a good one.