RTR Wagons - What next?

[minister_for_hardship]

It's not about 21 vs 16.5 gauge.

 

Every rail model that is Irish, be it southern or northern, should be 21mm - full stop.

 

Think about it. It should be a scale model.

 

It shouldn't be compressed or butchered to suit a track gauge. The prototype should, and must be modelled to a scale of 1:76.2 - no bull. But there are things that irk me more than that. I've seen a lot of really expensive crap models come out since the demise of MIR, people charging excessive amounts for poorly researched, badly executed models to fill the gap left behind. Frankly I'm sick of it. IFM and MISR products are not up to scratch and nobody here seems to have the balls to say it. It's shocking money for sloppy products in my opinion.

Give us "bang on" wagons and we'll buy them in spades. Give us really crap versions and we'll happily stay silent.

 

Willing to be banned for this.

 

Richie.

 

Let's face it...if Irish Railway modellers are a minority, then 21mm Irish is a minority within a minority.

[Warbonnet]

It's not about 21 vs 16.5 gauge.

 

Every rail model that is Irish, be it southern or northern, should be 21mm - full stop.

 

Think about it. It should be a scale model.

 

It shouldn't be compressed or butchered to suit a track gauge. The prototype should, and must be modelled to a scale of 1:76.2 - no bull. But there are things that irk me more than that. I've seen a lot of really expensive crap models come out since the demise of MIR, people charging excessive amounts for poorly researched, badly executed models to fill the gap left behind. Frankly I'm sick of it. IFM and MISR products are not up to scratch and nobody here seems to have the balls to say it. It's shocking money for sloppy products in my opinion.

Give us "bang on" wagons and we'll buy them in spades. Give us really crap versions and we'll happily stay silent.

 

Willing to be banned for this.

 

Richie.

 

Have to agree Richie. After all it costs the same to get something right as getting something wrong. I can't see the spacing of axles to allow for 21mm gauge jacking the price up dramatically. If MIR could cater for both donkeys years ago then I'm sure companies can now, especially when the measurements would leave you with a piece of rolling stock that will be scaled down to 21mm gauge initially.

[WRENNEIRE]

Is the review in New Irish Lines wrong in being complimentary towards the new range of MISR models? I have no direct experience yet of either the IFM or MISR ranges, so have any of the detractors taken up their grievances with either of these manufacturers, or are they just using this site to winge 'cos they can't get finescale models at pocket money prices? Try it yourself and see how you get on.

Stephen

Steve

I paid €450 + p&p for the Weedspray wagons

Pocket money price?

I think not

[burnthebox]

Steve

I paid €450 + p&p for the Weedspray wagons

Pocket money price?

I think not

Last of the big spenders

[StevieB]

Dave

I agree that that isn't a pocket money price but that's what happens when the market is so small. Taking Richie's point, how do you feel about the weedspray wagons? Are they worth the money?

Stephen

[Glenderg]

MISR have a ballast wagon produced which needs to be applauded for it's resin casting. However, the chassis is completely wrong, and a novice comparing a photo to the model would immediately see the difference. Also, there is a high resolution scan of the wagon here in the prototype drawings part of the forum which would be used as a starting point. It would appear it hasn't been used. The distance between side panels, the angle of the end stanchions, and lack of internal detail are missing. The bullied opens have no internal ribs. The cattle wagon is the wrong size. I know all this because I researched them myself to the nth degree. Should a punter want to part with his cash for them, go ahead, but please be aware of what you are purchasing. MISR have the potential to be a really strong player in the market, but they need to put a bit more effort into the research.

 

IFM doesn't even compare. The models are rough finished shapeways type things with so much wrong and so lacking in detail, it's hard to know where to begin. The weedspray set Dave mentioned is really poor and there's probably 40 hours work to take the set to having a passing resemblance to the prototype vehicle. It's out there for people to buy though, so if you have the money, and aren't overly concerned about accuracy, go ahead and buy with confidence.

 

Yes Anto, I know I'm treading on eggshells here, but I firmly believe that people are made aware of the shortcomings of some of the products available. I've no interest in starting a bun fight over this, or having this thread deleted. It's a healthy discussion about RTR wagons and I do hope IFM and MISR read this and engage. It may encourage them to improve their standards. Provincial wagons, K&M, SSM for instance are gold standard manufacturers who's prices equate to the quality of product. All others in the market need to come up to that datum in terms of price and quality.

 

I'm not whinging because I can't get high quality models at pocket money prices Stevie. I scratchbuild and bash all my stock for Clients and my own collection, many of which I don't post on my workbench. When I do take on a wagon build I put a serious amount of research into it. I simply cannot fathom why others can't do likewise.

 

Richie.

[WRENNEIRE]

Dave

I agree that that isn't a pocket money price but that's what happens when the market is so small. Taking Richie's point, how do you feel about the weedspray wagons? Are they worth the money?

Stephen

Steve

Unfortunately the forum will not allow me to print what I want to say about the weedsprays

Not a happy camper is not really the expression I had in mind but it will have to do

I have commissioned an old pal to do a set (10) of Tara’s for me, which I should have in the next couple of weeks

Also have a rake of Park Royals just about ready for collection from a different builder

Before having them built I expressed my concerns about the finished product and both lads said that if they were not up to their high standards they would refund my money

Can’t ask for any better than that

I will post some pics when I have the finished products but some pics that were sent during construction would give a winagon to some of the more senior contributors here

Nuff said

[WRENNEIRE]

Last of the big spenders

At least I do spend money, ya mane bastard!!!!

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

Richie and Wrenn I applaud you both for striking up the courage to say what you have said It's one of the biggest problems with not only this site but other sites that have gone before it. The fact that you can't say what you honestly think of an IRISH manufacturers products or someone workbench unless its positive even when the product is far from it. That fact that you will be chastised for daring to speak what everyone else is thinking and afraid to say.

 

Its that old Irish attitude Ah sure don't rock the boat sure their one of our own. This has got to stop. If someone wants to give an honest opinion of a product or workbench they should be allowed to do so without fear. What sickens me is when I look at the IFM section on this site the amount of back slapping that has been posted there. Yet when I speak to these people who know me in person at shows or events or on the phone 99% of them can't string two goods words together to say about IFM products (and yes before you say it they have bought from IFM so they know what they are talking about) I always say to them well why not post your feeling on the site. The reply usually is something along the lines of "are you mad do you want me to be taken out blindfolded and shot at dawn by the other members".

 

Now I'm not saying open the floodgates for a barrage of negative comments what I am saying is if you ain't happy with what you see or bought say so so that the manufacturers can have a chance to address the issue. Remember there are young kids and people out there who have to save up long and hard to buy something and its not very fair when people come on here back slapping just for the sake of it and lead other people into a false sense of security in buying a manufacturers products that ain't up to scratch.

Its nice to see that we can all finally have a healthy discussion about this issue on the site

[heirflick]

Steve

Also have a rake of Park Royals just about ready for collection from a different builder

QUOTE]

 

dave, i would love to see a pic of them. pm sent

[WRENNEIRE]

Steve

Also have a rake of Park Royals just about ready for collection from a different builder

QUOTE]

 

dave, i would love to see a pic of them. pm sent

 

So would I Shem !!!

[heirflick]

 

is this for me or the park royals?......hope its the latter or im getting a helmet strapped to my a*se!!

[BosKonay]

Did someone say Park Royals?!

[heirflick]

Did someone say Park Royals?!

 

down boy, too much excitement is bad for your ticker!!!

[BosKonay]

:praying:

[David]

Lads,

 

I think there's a few fundamentals that we're not all on the same page about. Unless I'm mistaken, any wagons on the horizon or currently available are/will be handmade. I'm not aware of any factory made models in development. This means that for a 4 wheeled wagon the manufacturer is almost certain to use an existing chassis and not develop their own. That means that saying it is just a case of getting the tooling right is not true. Now the manufacturer should select a rtr chassis that is as similar as possible to the Irish prototype being modelled. This rules out perfection with chassis detail, at least if you want to pay less than 50 euro.

 

I think it's important that the model looks the part. At a glance the models should look right and the owner shouldn't feel the need to grab the callipers and the scale drawings to check dimensions! Meaning that the axle spacing is correct and the model is accurately dimensioned to say 1 or 2mm. There is always going to be a trade-off between price and accuracy.

 

I have seen a photo of the MISR ballast wagon and it looks 90% right to me so I think to say it is 'wrong' is way too harsh. We need to be careful to criticise in a measured manner. If there is bad or sub-standard construction or finishing it needs to be highlighted but a hand builder should not be slated for using a RTR chassis.

[UP6936]

I know what you are saying, but 50 euro is still quite a large sum, and for that money I feel the buyer should get a model that IS fully dimensionally correct, chassis and all. Besides, correct me if I am wrong, but are IFM products not factory made?

just my opinion and I am not in any way trying to start an argument

[iarnrod]

Considering MIR were able to produce reasonably detailed and accurately dimensioned kits all those years ago, some of the offerings available at present for quite large sums of money are nothing short of a joke. The later kits produced by MIR were class e.g. ammonia wagons, and this is the level that any new kit should aspire to, or even higher. The prices that some people are charging for inaccurate and dimensionally incorrect models that are also devoid of detail is unreal. I'd rather spend €50 on Plastruct/Evergreen items and give a go at scratchbuilding. I only hope that any future wagon kits that anyone intends to release hit the mark and compliment the excellent details on Murphy Models items.

[Guest hidden-agenda]

Having read this thread a number of times i cant help but notice a full scale organised attack on one guy who advertises on the site and one who does not by a number of people including mods and i get the impression there,s an organised posse behind this. First and foremost any body who has a problem with IFM should take it up directly with them and secondly as regards MISR the guy is,nt even on the site and has any of the posse bought any of his goods or seen them in the flesh before passing comment?

It looks ok for certain members to launch an attack with the blessings of certain mods and then get a pat on the back when others before have had SH1te dumped on them when stating the obvious about a model and was told you should take it up directly with the supplier. DOUBLE STANDARDS.

I cant help but notice certain suppliers are being mentioned as Gold standard manufacturers and all in the same thread as shooting others down so its blatantly obvious what,s taking place here.

Glenderg before you preach from your pulpit about modelling standards take a long hard look at your build of the 30t brake van.

For some body who states they have an eye for detail and uses photographs and drawings i think you need to look at them again.

Edited May 17, 2013 by hidden-agenda

[Glenderg]

You clearly haven't read the full 13 pages of this thread the majority of which is about how to get 20' chassis. The last few posts have been instigated by my saying that the work of two manufacturers, in my honest opinion, is not to the standard it should be. I fail to see why you are getting excited, there's no organised witch hunt or conspiracy afoot. You, one of the best wagon builders on this forum, cannot be defending poor models and the price tag attached. Or are you ?

And how do you suggest I take it up with a manufacturer?

 

Dear Model Maker,

 

Yer stuff is crap. Be Better. Else I'm not buyin.

 

Yours faithfully

 

etc.

 

I've asked that everybody with a vested interest gets involved and engages with this conversation, to improve the standards of products. I have products from both stables sitting on my workbench so I do know their shortcomings. MY comments about gold standards still stand. There are two different sets of standards at play, buying customers need to be aware of that. What they do with their credit card is their own business.

 

Lastly, the barbed comments about my 30 ton van are interesting. It's a kit. It's not an RTR wagon. You know where my workbench thread is if you have a gripe. Even better, send me a PM so your issues can be dealt with on a personal level and this thread can be kept on topic.

 

Richie.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Glenderg

[Barl]

Having read through this thread there are several interesting points made. I haven't seen either of the above mentioned manufacturers' models in person so I can't comment on either but from seeing some of the above comments it is apparent that there must be some issues with the models if several members have mentioned concerns with them.

 

One seriously negative aspect, that could result from criticising RTR or kit models on a 'bashing' scale, may be that other members are afraid to post pictures of their own work for fear of receiving similar treatment, particularly those new to the hobby or younger modellers, as unlikely as this may be! I think progressive criticism is always welcomed but there is a big difference between criticising a commercial product and someone's personal work!

 

It is mentioned above that the 'non-criticising of models on this site may give others a false impression so maybe a possible solution would be to introduce a 'Review' section on the site (at least I don't think this exists?) where RTR models or kits could be analysed in a fair and detailed manner and any additional comments could be left by site members.

 

Karl

Edited May 17, 2013 by Barl

[WRENNEIRE]

Fair play Karl

Some very good points there to take on board

My own imput has been targeted at the commercial side of the hobby

Where an item is tendered for sale and it is not up to scratch, this should always be pointed out, but it should be done with some dignity, People have the right to call themselves whatever they like. That doesn't bother me. It's other people doing the calling that bothers me

I think the Review Section is a great idea and I will take it up with "management"

[Guest hidden-agenda]

You clearly haven't read the full 13 pages of this thread the majority of which is about how to get 20' chassis. The last few posts have been instigated by my saying that the work of two manufacturers, in my honest opinion, is not to the standard it should be. I fail to see why you are getting excited, there's no organised witch hunt or conspiracy afoot. You, one of the best wagon builders on this forum, cannot be defending poor models and the price tag attached. Or are you ?

And how do you suggest I take it up with a manufacturer?

 

Dear Model Maker,

 

Yer stuff is crap. Be Better. Else I'm not buyin.

 

Yours faithfully

 

etc.

 

I've asked that everybody with a vested interest gets involved and engages with this conversation, to improve the standards of products. I have products from both stables sitting on my workbench so I do know their shortcomings. MY comments about gold standards still stand. There are two different sets of standards at play, buying customers need to be aware of that. What they do with their credit card is their own business.

 

Lastly, the barbed comments about my 30 ton van are interesting. It's a kit. It's not an RTR wagon. You know where my workbench thread is if you have a gripe. Even better, send me a PM so your issues can be dealt with on a personal level and this thread can be kept on topic.

 

Richie.

You clearly cant understand what you have typed.

You have tore into two manufacturers and not a word from a moderator.

Gold standards dont exist as every model is not perfect but only as good as the buyer sees it.

Regardless of my abilities or disability i wont tear into a manufacturer in the way you have as its unprofessional and as i have pointed out re your 30t brake van its far too easy to get carried away and find your self under the spot light.

Your buildings are above and beyond what any one has shown on the site but putting your self up as checking pics and drawings before a build and being professional and pointing out the faults of others in the manner and words you used is arrogant and unprofessional.

Your comments are doing more damage than good to Irish modelling and to quote Wrenneires post it should have been done with some dignity people have the right to call themselves what ever they like.

Lets get back on topic to the first post on this thread where Leslie asked what wagons would the community be interested in having as kits or and RTR.

Re G.

[Warbonnet]

Fair play Karl

Some very good points there to take on board

My own imput has been targeted at the commercial side of the hobby

Where an item is tendered for sale and it is not up to scratch, this should always be pointed out, but it should be done with some dignity, People have the right to call themselves whatever they like. That doesn't bother me. It's other people doing the calling that bothers me

I think the Review Section is a great idea and I will take it up with "management"

 

+1

[Warbonnet]

You clearly cant understand what you have typed.

You have tore into two manufacturers and not a word from a moderator.

Gold standards dont exist as every model is not perfect but only as good as the buyer sees it.

Regardless of my abilities or disability i wont tear into a manufacturer in the way you have as its unprofessional and as i have pointed out re your 30t brake van its far too easy to get carried away and find your self under the spot light.

Your buildings are above and beyond what any one has shown on the site but putting your self up as checking pics and drawings before a build and being professional and pointing out the faults of others in the manner and words you used is arrogant and unprofessional.

Your comments are doing more damage than good to Irish modelling and to quote Wrenneires post it should have been done with some dignity people have the right to call themselves what ever they like.

Lets get back on topic to the first post on this thread where Leslie asked what wagons would the community be interested in having as kits or and RTR.

Re G.

 

I think the reasons why Richies posts have not been moderated is because he phrased his critiques of the manufacturers in a constructive, balanced and dignified way. There was good points noted as well as bad and his posts have been restrained and professional. Fundamentaly there was no over the top hysterical screaming which has seen previous topics curtailed.

 

There is no 'hidden agenda' here and no 'double standards' here. You seem to be looking to make something out of nothing and frankly it's a bit sad and definitely unnecessary. If you think you can offer advice to Richie about his brake van then he would be better served if you could write why you think it could be better on his workbench thread in a 'constructive' manner, rather than use it as a stick to beat him with without pointing out why it's not accurate in your view.

 

All I can say is that Dave showed me his weedsprayer and all I can say it is not up to the standard of the very high price charged and I certainly wouldn't buy what they have to offer. Your own wagons are of a higher quality for a much lower price for instance. I'm just glad that I am into Brit OO and American HO so I have a much wider choice of quality accurate rolling stock at affordable prices.

 

Now as you say, lets get back on topic here please.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Warbonnet

[BosKonay]

In terms of anyone wanting a 'word from a moderator' - all members are entitled to their opinions. Anything else would be censorship. Outside breaking the rules of the forum, I see no issue with anything that was posted. That doesn't mean any moderator or the 'forum' agrees with any points made by anyone, for the sake of the record.

[Arran]

HI All

 

If you tool a chassis from scratch you can have the clearances built in you might just need longer axles and if 1% want to make them scale get on with it but dont you need compensation built into a 4 wheel chassis !!!! for those P4 type standards.

 

Regards Arran

[Portoman]

As a relative newbie to the hobby,I have great admiration for you guys on the forum. Your depth of knowledge and skills for railways and modelling is inspiring. However I would hate to see the passion clould discussion. I know there is no animosity meant to anybody by what has been said.We're a small fish in a big pond. Its only the last few years since anything resembling irish stock has been available and its only because you guys demanded it and the likes of Paddy Murphy responded, More people are now getting on board,some may need tweeking with design and price but at least its a start. Keep it up and may the hobby continue to grow.

[RedRich]

HI All

 

If you tool a chassis from scratch you can have the clearances built in you might just need longer axles and if 1% want to make them scale get on with it but dont you need compensation built into a 4 wheel chassis !!!! for those P4 type standards.

 

Regards Arran

 

Good question Arran. MJT produce an inside bearing type unit that is fitted to one end of the chassis and it has little tabs that are folded out and the give the compensation unit a degree of movement to allow it to traverse the track. The other end is fitted with a rigid axle. A little bit of plasticard could be fitted to the underneath of the chassis and a wagon body like a beet or Bullied wagon body would obscure the underneath so the inside bearing unit wouldn't be seen, as would a container on the chassis. Of course with another type of body like a cement bubble or ballast wagon the modeller would find his or her own solution. I am sure that Uncle Des would design a brass springing type of W Iron for anyone that would request them if they didn't want to take the MJT option.

 

If you look at the Ultrascale website as just one supplier that provides drop in wheelsets they cover nearly all Diesels which is proof that Bachmann, Hornby, etc do build their models with the view to modellers wanting to regauge their stock albeit in the UK 4ft 8 1/2 gauge, and as has been pointed out so do MM locos for our 5ft 3 gauge. A wagon model built to the correct dimensions will run on 28mm pin point axles with wheels set at the 16.5 gauge on Peco etc track. Peco even produce code 100 rail for people using the more coarse Lima pizza cutter type wheels and code 75 for the more finer type wheels that are produced on today's models. The modeller that decides to have a stab at the wider gauge will incur any extra cost himself and that is fair. Also there are lad's that are modelling in 21mm in an EM type scenario where they reuse the original wheels on on longer axles with their MM loco's with the wheels, gears, and some brass bushes for widening the gauge and even though they are not modelling to strict P4 standards it's hard to tell unless you really get close to it and looks great.

 

HTH

 

Rich,

[BosKonay]

As a relative newbie to the hobby,I have great admiration for you guys on the forum. Your depth of knowledge and skills for railways and modelling is inspiring. However I would hate to see the passion clould discussion. I know there is no animosity meant to anybody by what has been said.We're a small fish in a big pond. Its only the last few years since anything resembling irish stock has been available and its only because you guys demanded it and the likes of Paddy Murphy responded, More people are now getting on board,some may need tweeking with design and price but at least its a start. Keep it up and may the hobby continue to grow.

 

Well said.

[Tarabuses]

I know what you are saying, but 50 euro is still quite a large sum, and for that money I feel the buyer should get a model that IS fully dimensionally correct, chassis and all. Besides, correct me if I am wrong, but are IFM products not factory made?

just my opinion and I am not in any way trying to start an argument

 

I'm not sure where this factory might be.

[Guest hidden-agenda]

I think the reasons why Richies posts have not been moderated is because he phrased his critiques of the manufacturers in a constructive, balanced and dignified way. There was good points noted as well as bad and his posts have been restrained and professional. Fundamentaly there was no over the top hysterical screaming which has seen previous topics curtailed.

 

There is no 'hidden agenda' here and no 'double standards' here. You seem to be looking to make something out of nothing and frankly it's a bit sad and definitely unnecessary. If you think you can offer advice to Richie about his brake van then he would be better served if you could write why you think it could be better on his workbench thread in a 'constructive' manner, rather than use it as a stick to beat him with without pointing out why it's not accurate in your view.

 

All I can say is that Dave showed me his weedsprayer and all I can say it is not up to the standard of the very high price charged and I certainly wouldn't buy what they have to offer. Your own wagons are of a higher quality for a much lower price for instance. I'm just glad that I am into Brit OO and American HO so I have a much wider choice of quality accurate rolling stock at affordable prices.

 

Now as you say, lets get back on topic here please.

 

 

Thank you for a moderators reply WB. I stand over everything i have said as i am sure other members and guests can see where i am coming from. If you think what i have said is sad and unnecessary it only points out that one person can speak freely and when challenged by another its looked on with distaste .I agree there are good points and bad points but as i pointed out if your going to put your self up as the professional be prepared for others to spot a mistake or bad workmanship in your work and say it openly as i have done just as Glenderg has done . A work bench thread is there for viewing and if you cant take criticism dont give it. If one person is allowed to name manufacturers and review their products it should allow every one the same right. I have pointed out that mentioning gold star manufacturers in the same post shooting down others looks in my view biased considering it looks like a blatant advertisement and if i am the only person to see and say this well i am one person who has noticed.

Regards G.

Edited May 18, 2013 by hidden-agenda

[Glenderg]

Gareth, happy to take criticism, but I'm not an RTR manufacturer! I still don't know what's wrong with me brake van Let me apologise though if you thought I was out to "get" any particular manufacturer - that is not, and wasn't my intention. My criticism is aimed at commercially sold products, not lads who scratchbuild stuff. I must also apologise to those who read these boards and take inspiration from it. I can't have helped their confidence much. Can we move on from this now so I can get back to butchering brake vans?

 

Richie.

[Warbonnet]

Thank you for a moderators reply WB. I stand over everything i have said as i am sure other members and guests can see where i am coming from. If you think what i have said is sad and unnecessary it only points out that one person can speak freely and when challenged by another its looked on with distaste .I agree there are good points and bad points but as i pointed out if your going to put your self up as the professional be prepared for others to spot a mistake or bad workmanship in your work and say it openly as i have done just as Glenderg has done . A work bench thread is there for viewing and if you cant take criticism dont give it. If one person is allowed to name manufacturers and review their products it should allow every one the same right. I have pointed out that mentioning gold star manufacturers in the same post shooting down others looks in my view biased considering it looks like a blatant advertisement and if i am the only person to see and say this well i am one person who has noticed.

Regards G.

 

Twisting my words there. Everyone can have their say, just once it's in the right way. Previous criticisms which were moderated was seen as attacks because of the way they were phrased. There was nothing sinister about what Richie said and he was not moderated because he has gone about things the right way. You still haven't told us why Richie's brake van is wrong, despite going on about it. That's the wrong way to go about things. Do things in a constructive manner and the person learns, and you look as if you're helping out rather than taking cheap shots. That's done by explaining why.

 

We don't do advertisements on this site as we do not get paid. We are there to support all Irish manufacturers. Constructive criticism can be supportive as manufacturers can take comment on board and improve. It also helps punters decide if they're getting value for money.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Warbonnet

[Guest hidden-agenda]

You still haven't told us why Richie's brake van is wrong, despite going on about it. That's the wrong way to go about things.

 

Fran i dont want to fall out with you and be accused of twisting your words but to keep you happy and do what you have requested i will go on to Glendergs work bench later and write a review ( constructive criticism ) of his 30 ton brake van build so that i am not going on about it.

Regards Gareth.