IRM Latest! The High Queens of Ireland - IRM Celebrates 10th Birthday With GSR 800s

[NorthWallDocker]

IRM's news about the 800 locomotives motivated me to reserve one model of each locomotive.  Three Irish steam locomotive models.  The largest single purchase of railway models I've ever done, but well worth it to support such an important project.

[James Regan]

Very pleased to see this project coming to reality. I remember the first time I saw the original as a young boy in Witham Street, a gigantic looming thing squeezed into a tiny, dark, cramped space. You could hardly take it in. As Ireland’s greatest steam locomotive, I wanted to love it, but the overall effect was spoiled somewhat by the American style diesel cab windows and the miniature buffers. Still a very imposing piece of Irish railway history. Will pick up a couple.

[Fowler4f]

I haven’t read all the posts, maybe we need 3 or more of appropriate mixed coaching stock sets, by IRM, to match The Queens.

[GSR 800]

2 hours ago, Fowler4f said:

I haven’t read all the posts, maybe we need 3 or more of appropriate mixed coaching stock sets, by IRM, to match The Queens.

The Park Royals probably scrape through (just about). I've yet to see a photo of an 800 hauling a PR, but a photo in a Second Glance of Meadbh at Kingsbridge shunting a coach onto her train, has a PR in the adjacent carriage siding. So they were certainly in service at the same time, on the same line. Funny enough there's plenty of photos and footage of them hauled by steam from Westland Row to Bray, of course the suburbans were put into service there first.

The composites are the most likely coaches for IRM to justify from the 50s. I'm unsure if the Bredin steel sides used the same chassis (was that alluded to here?), but either way, composites were around from the 1950s up to the mid-1980s, so they cover almost the entire CIE period.

We're getting a bit pie in the sky here, but it's possible at some point IRM go for 'generic' GSWR/MGWR bogies to cover that period, if they ever decide to go that early. They are essential for any layout based before 1965 IMO. I have considered commissioning an MGWR Galway Mail set to be 3d printed, but that'd be a few years away at any rate.

 

 

[Mayner]

The chassis on the GSR Bredins & early CIE built stock were different in detail. The GSR Bredins basically had a 60' version of the 57' riveted underframe used in late GSWR/early GSR stock with vertical kingposts and bracing rods with turnbuckle adjuster.

Bredin riveted underframe with Kingposts & truss rods with turnbuckle adjusters.

CIE used an all welded underframe with welded trusses. To complicate matters further CIE built the 1st batch of coaches on a 60' underframe and subsequent batches on 61'6" underframes, the final batches of CIE "Bredins" ran on Bulleid underframes on Commonwealth bogies just like the Park Royals.

CIE all welded underframe with angle iron trusses.

Simplest solution would be to use Stanier coaches in GSR or CIE livery to produce a generic "layout train" to run behind an 800 or someone with very deep pockets commissioning Accurascale to produce a mixture of ex-GSWR early GSR and Bredin stock that typically ran on a GSR or CIE steam era passenger train with few vehicles alike.

Otherwise David Jenkinson book on scratchbuilding coaches in plasticard, David seemingly seemingly vast numbers of highly detailed ex LNWR, Midland and LMS coaches for his 4 & 7mm Settle and Carlisle themed layouts during the 1970s including models of specific 10-12 coach main-line rakes. His shortlived EM Little Long Drag layout of the 1970s was basically an American style walk around layout in a British purpose built garden shed which featured several stations actual and a fictious Junction on the Settle & Carlisle line, featuring several prototypical full length trains all using scratch or kit built locos and stock. The layout didn't last long the owner realised that it was too big to maintain and upsized to a simpler O gauge layout.

Edited May 7 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

On 11/3/2025 at 9:17 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

Exactly. Perhaps somone using Ral colours extracted from the hattons coaches/800 one could repaint appropriate British stock. Thats what I did for years before the genesis coaches and it was perfect

 

im sure I’ve seen photos of CIE full brake 6 wheelers running behind 800

Possibly a full brake, but very definitely never passenger-carrying six-wheelers.

If there was a six wheel van on the Cork line much after 1935 (pre-800!) it was at one end of the train carrying mailbags.

[GSR 800]

@Warbonnet

Two questions regarding the model.

The mechanical lubricator linkage is attached to the lubricator itself on the footplate. How will it be detached if the body is separated from the chassis?

And a cheeky one, have we any rough ETA on decorated samples?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

On 10/3/2025 at 9:50 PM, Mol_PMB said:

I found this quite useful summary of the survivors, for anyone trying to list the intervening types:

https://trainstobeyond.com/irish-preservation/

 

Excellent list. Pity there’s nothing Midland on it, though!

[Colin_McLeod]

I hope the sound file for the 'as preserved' version makes a few more sounds than the prototype, which sits in the museum making no sound at all.

[Horsetan]

On 14/3/2025 at 8:56 AM, Mol_PMB said:

I now have my references in front of me so I'll just summarise what the kits represent.

In 1935 the GSR built a series of gangwayed main-line coaches, with a 60'0" length over the body, and 9'0" width over the body. The upper body sides were vertical with a gentle curve below the waist to a width of 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body. This group included the following coaches which I think are those represented by the SSM kits Edit: the SSM kits represent the luggage van from this series, but the third and composite from the 1937 batch (see below):

• 8 corridor thirds 1323-1330
• 2 corridor composites 2114-2115
• 1 brake/luggage 2548
• 1 corridor first 1144 

In 1949-1951, composite 2115 was reclassified as a first.

1327 was preserved but I don't think it now exists.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

Here's composite 2114 in CIE livery in the 1950s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343

They lasted in passenger service until the early 1970s. For example, 2115 was converted to brake/luggage van 2559 in 1971 and survived another decade or so, while 1335 was withdrawn in 1973.

 

The GSR built a second series of gangwayed main-line coaches in 1937. These were also 60'0" length over the body, but the body profile was different. They retained the 9'0" width at cantrail height and 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body, but the width at the waist was increased to 9'6". This meant that the upper sides were noticeably inclined with a more significant curve on the lower sides. 

• 4 corridor thirds 1335-1338
• 4 corridor composites 2120-2123

Apart from the body profile, these carriages were virtually identical to the 1935 batch. 

Edit: It should therefore be possible to modify the SSM kit to represent the earlier ones by reshaping the end profiles.

Here's third 1338:

And one of the composites here (in the background):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508777481

2120/1 were converted to brake/luggage vans 2560/1 in 1971 and survived another decade or so; the others were withdrawn in the early 1970s.

1335 was preserved and still exists:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508127442/

 

The first carriages built by CIE in 1951 were a batch of 6 composites numbered 2124-2129. These were closely based on their GSR predecessors, but had a welded truss underframe. The body profile reverted to having vertical upper sides, but now at 9'6" width. The window styling was also different, with raised aluminium frames. A possible kitbash from the SSM model, but these would be more work. There's a nice photo of one of these on page 43 of the book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages'.

After that, CIE adopted a 61'6" length and this also influenced the layout of the coaches, for example the composites had 4 first and 3 third compartments, rather than the 3 first and 4 third on the shorter 60'0" underframe.

Just as a late follow-on, the Bredin 3rd which survives (with drawgear, but without corridor connections or bogies) at Moyasta is said to be no.1325 (which can be built straight from the SSM kit), and First 1144 sits at the back of Dromod. 

I've ordered two Bredin 3rd kits from SSM, so if anyone else is thinking about having a go at a Bredin, now might be the time....

[Mol_PMB]

14 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Just as a late follow-on, the Bredin 3rd which survives (with drawgear, but without corridor connections or bogies) at Moyasta is said to be no.1325 (which can be built straight from the SSM kit), and First 1144 sits at the back of Dromod. 

I've ordered two Bredin 3rd kits from SSM, so if anyone else is thinking about having a go at a Bredin, now might be the time....

I expressed a strong interest in a Bredin 3rd from SSM a couple of months back, along with a couple of other items. Still waiting to hear back when they are available.

But I'm in no rush.

Given that they're not yet listed as in transit, the IRM Park Royals will have to be put on a fast boat to get here in 2025 Q2 as well...

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I expressed a strong interest in a Bredin 3rd from SSM a couple of months back, along with a couple of other items. Still waiting to hear back when they are available.

But I'm in no rush....

That makes three kits, then!

I see Worsley Works has listed a forthcoming scratch-aid kit for a GSR 1937 Corridor First - I wonder if that's a typo, since the one and only First coach was supposedly built as part of the 1935 batch ...which potentially means that the WW sides from this one could be adapted for use on the SSM Bredin kit.....

Edited Wednesday at 16:13 by Horsetan

[jhb171achill]

In all reality, the likelihood of a Park Royal behind an 800 class, while technically possible, is highly unlikely. By the time the main line PRs were being introduced, the 800 class were doing very little - Cork trains were largely in the hands of Crossley "A"s, B101s  and AEC railcars.

The stock needed for AUTHENTIC stock behind an 800 is a selection of both types of Bredins, the 1951-3 CIE equivalents, and various older main line corridor wooden-bodied GSWR stock. The older wooden ones and the steel-sided ones (Bredins onward) were, judging by photos of anything steam on the main line in the 1940s and 50s, about 50 / 50 each.

With the actual absence of anything at all RTR at the moment, and (I suspect) for a long time, we must make do with what the nearest equivalents are. Apart from the SSM and Worsley brass kits, for RTR various types of 1930s off-the-shelf LMS designs from across the pond would do a reasonable impression of Bredins if painted in GSR livery (same as LMS, conveniently, down to the lining, but with very dark grey roof instead of silver) though different lettering; and there are some representations of wooden-bodied stock from Britain (go for LMS or GWR types, not Southern or LNER) again repainted. Alternately, the very same vehicles in older CIE green with eau-de-nil lines, as per the re-liveried LMS stock that came in that Bachmann train set with a Woolwich some years ago.

The 6-wheelers wouldn't have gone behind an 800, with the possible exception of a full brake carrying mail bags, and alongside a TPO; now THIS is something for which nothing but a scratchbuild would do, but would be present in most 800-hauled trains.

So right now, nothing beyond that; but who know what the future would bring. A RTR Bredin or laminate would cover a huge lot of holes in the market.

Edited Wednesday at 15:38 by jhb171achill

[Flying Snail]

Worsley Works also have a kit for the Pullman coaches - wouldn't one of them also have shown up behind an 800?

EDIT: The answer is yes ... I asked this very same question, in this very same thread back in March 

Edited Wednesday at 17:37 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

Worsley Works also have a kit for the Pullman coaches - wouldn't one of them also have shown up behind an 800?

EDIT: The answer is yes ... I asked this very same question, in this very same thread back in March 

Yes, on some services.

One per train. 

They were brown and cream when new - but not Pullman livery brown and cream - GSR brown and cream! (Similar shades to GWR in Britain so actually much the same), black roof not silver as in GB.

Senior said that they eventually had standard GSR maroon, with “GREAT SOUTHERN PULLMAN” in yellow above window level. It must have been short-lived as I have not seen a photo like this. In a colour pic, though, of one in a scrap line in the early 50s, maroon can be seen showing under the green.

Eventually CIE dark green but unusually no snail, due to the planked lower sides.

Edited Wednesday at 18:34 by jhb171achill