Heritage Railways in the Republic of Ireland

[Celtic_transport]

Hi Everyone,

I was letting my brain wander last night and I've always found it a shame that there are no standard gauge heritage railways in the republic. I understand there was attempts in the past such as west rail on the Loughrea branch but I'm just wondering what former railways do yous think would make plausible heritage railways today? 

[Galteemore]

4 hours ago, Celtic_transport said:

Hi Everyone,

I was letting my brain wander last night and I've always found it a shame that there are no standard gauge heritage railways in the republic. I understand there was attempts in the past such as west rail on the Loughrea branch but I'm just wondering what former railways do yous think would make plausible heritage railways today? 

Simple answer is ‘none’ I’m afraid. RPSI have found the model, by accident or design, to keep steam going:  run a few trains out of Dublin every year filled to the gunwales with  passengers. Far more commercially viable than keeping a branch line going 365 days. Not enough Dublin families would drag down to any of the old closed lines (Baltinglass, Shillelagh, Athboy etc) to keep them running. 

Downpatrick, which is a relatively small operation by UK standards, represents a truly extraordinary commitment of money and time by those involved. Not sure there is enough capacity in the Irish market to support another operation. 

Edited Sunday at 16:51 by Galteemore

[Celtic_transport]

3 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Simple answer is ‘none’ I’m afraid. RPSI have found the model, by accident or design, to keep steam going:  run a few trains out of Dublin every year filled to the gunwales with  passengers. Far more commercially viable than keeping a branch line going 365 days.Downpatrick, which is a relatively small operation by UK standards, represents an extraordinary commitment of money and finance by those involved. Not sure there is enough capacity in the Irish market to support another operation. 

It's a shame though as there are steam and diesel engines preserved that aren't capable of running on the main network, mainly due to their size. Personally i believe that a well located heritage operation would draw in enough visitors, as you see how quickly the rpsi excursions sell out. The Ardee branch would be my own suggestion, its 90% clear as most of it is a nature walk, and provides the possibility of a mainline exchange at the old junction, as well as being on the main dublin belfast line.

[Patrick Davey]

The Ardee branch trackbed is now crossed by the M1 motorway near Dromin, so that would probably rule it out

[Celtic_transport]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

The Ardee branch trackbed is now crossed by the M1 motorway near Dromin, so that would probably rule it out

They could go under it but the cost would probably be astronomical, im trying to think of any other lines that could be used

[Galteemore]

6 minutes ago, Celtic_transport said:

They could go under it but the cost would probably be astronomical, im trying to think of any other lines that could be used

 

 

15 minutes ago, Celtic_transport said:

It's a shame though as there are steam and diesel engines preserved that aren't capable of running on the main network, mainly due to their size. Personally i believe that a well located heritage operation would draw in enough visitors, as you see how quickly the rpsi excursions sell out. The Ardee branch would be my own suggestion, its 90% clear as most of it is a nature walk, and provides the possibility of a mainline exchange at the old junction, as well as being on the main dublin belfast line.

The RPSI operations sell out because they offer an experience within easy reach of the capital. You don’t spend half a day getting there, and the experience is long enough to offer substance without boring the kids. The relative scarcity of the trains ensures that they are filled. Having spent some thirty years of my life in very close contact to RPSI finances, I have a lot of sympathy with the branch line concept, but know how much it would soak up in resource. 

Edited Sunday at 13:46 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Celtic_transport said:

Hi Everyone,

I was letting my brain wander last night and I've always found it a shame that there are no standard gauge heritage railways in the republic. I understand there was attempts in the past such as west rail on the Loughrea branch but I'm just wondering what former railways do yous think would make plausible heritage railways today? 

maam cross is aiming to be one next year 

 

I always found that the drogheada to navan branch would make a superb heritage line. Considering it’s not going to be used for the new line to navan. Perhaps if the RPSI were kicked off the mainline one day It could be considered 

[Celtic_transport]

20 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

maam cross is aiming to be one next year 

 

I always found that the drogheada to navan branch would make a superb heritage line. Considering it’s not going to be used for the new line to navan. Perhaps if the RPSI were kicked off the mainline one day It could be considered 

I agree, as a local of that line it would be a great option as it's still maintained even though taras haven't ran in well over a year. They are saying taras will be back in 2027 but with the new line to dublin supposed to be completed in the mid 2030s the taras could move to that line as itd be more direct to the port. There are a few problems however, such as the location of a stop in drogheda and running through platin cement works, i dont know if insurance would allow passenger trains to run through an active industrial site

[Noel]

It’s s pity the Youghal line was not restored to service and instead sacrificed to another useless greenway instead of a busy commuter rail extension to Cork city, OR it could have been a preserved heritage railway line out to Youghal for weekend excursion close to a large population centre (ie Cork). The only other candidate I can think of is if they close the Ballybrophy to Nenagh line the RPA could hand it over under license to a heritage railway operator, then the line at least could be accessed by main line rail instead of driving a long way up to NI. Wonderful and all as they are, Downpatrick and Whitegate are just far away and too awkward to access for most rail enthusiasts down south.  Personally narrow guage doesn’t float my boat like the UK standard guage preserved railway lines do. I guess in Ireland we just don’t have the tradition or population density to support such. So for now model form does the trick.

[Celtic_transport]

20 minutes ago, Noel said:

It’s s pity the Youghal line was not restored to service and instead sacrificed to another useless greenway instead of a busy commuter rail extension to Cork city, OR it could have been a preserved heritage railway line out to Youghal for weekend excursion close to a large population centre (ie Cork). The only other candidate I can think of is if they close the Ballybrophy to Nenagh line the RPA could hand it over under license to a heritage railway operator, then the line at least could be accessed by main line rail instead of driving a long way up to NI. Wonderful and all as they are, Downpatrick and Whitegate are just far away and too awkward to access for most rail enthusiasts down south.  Personally narrow guage doesn’t float my boat like the UK standard guage preserved railway lines do. I guess in Ireland we just don’t have the tradition or population density to support such. So for now model form does the trick.

Im the same, narrow gauge is great but theres nothing quite like standard gauge steam. I suppose they could do the loughrea branch as far as dunsandle, as dunsandle is right beside the M6, and attymon has a rail link

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

It’s s pity the Youghal line was not restored to service and instead sacrificed to another useless greenway instead of a busy commuter rail extension to Cork city, OR it could have been a preserved heritage railway line out to Youghal for weekend excursion close to a large population centre (ie Cork). The only other candidate I can think of is if they close the Ballybrophy to Nenagh line the RPA could hand it over under license to a heritage railway operator, then the line at least could be accessed by main line rail instead of driving a long way up to NI. Wonderful and all as they are, Downpatrick and Whitegate are just far away and too awkward to access for most rail enthusiasts down south.  Personally narrow guage doesn’t float my boat like the UK standard guage preserved railway lines do. I guess in Ireland we just don’t have the tradition or population density to support such. So for now model form does the trick.

Youghal branch as a preserved line was proposed on multiple occasions from the 80s to 00s. I vaguely recall a letter to the Examiner from a "colourful local character" in legal circles threatening to clear the line himself.

[jhb171achill]

Reading this with interest.

During the twenty-odd years I was heavily involved in RPSI operations, and either on an operations committee, the main management committee, or both, quite often people would submit requests to the RPSI for information regarding potential heritage operation schemes. I usually offered to answer these, and while they were not initially my direct area of remit within the RPSI, they were no-one else's either. I was thus involved in quite a few investigations of potential schemes, almost all of which were very clearly non-starters from day 1 - for example, two wealthy non-enthusiast businessmen who thought that a line of 10 miles with 2 locos (steam) could be financially self supporting and make them a fortune.

I will post detailed details in the coming days. I had actually planned to write a lenghty tome on the realities of railway preservation here in general, to hopefully make a few points of use to those who often suggest various schemes - as to what must be done, rather than what one might like to do; the necessity for practicality and realism (and lots of money) over emotional hankering about the past - or worse, ideeas that if the Severn Valley can carry thousands on a weekend, so can we.

There's a huge, huge lot behind railway preservation here, which anyone in Downpatrick, Whitehead, Inchicore or Dromod places can attest!

[GSR 800]

I wonder if there had been a plan in the 1990s to run steam along the Mullingar-Athlone route when the plan for the railway museum was taking shape.

All came to nought due to the interference of a certain politician who was loath to see Mullingar get tuppence for anything.

I'd like to do something with the buildings and infrastructure in Mullingar, before it is condemned to be destroyed.

[jhb171achill]

56 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

I wonder if there had been a plan in the 1990s to run steam along the Mullingar-Athlone route when the plan for the railway museum was taking shape.

All came to nought due to the interference of a certain politician who was loath to see Mullingar get tuppence for anything.

I'd like to do something with the buildings and infrastructure in Mullingar, before it is condemned to be destroyed.

That was indeed one of the potential schemes proposed.

[GSR 800]

13 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That was indeed one of the potential schemes proposed.

May send some emails..

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

I wonder if there had been a plan in the 1990s to run steam along the Mullingar-Athlone route when the plan for the railway museum was taking shape.

All came to nought due to the interference of a certain politician who was loath to see Mullingar get tuppence for anything.

I'd like to do something with the buildings and infrastructure in Mullingar, before it is condemned to be destroyed.

A combined road rail and canal museum, but small town politics fecked it up.

[minister_for_hardship]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

two wealthy non-enthusiast businessmen who thought that a line of 10 miles with 2 locos (steam) could be financially self supporting and make them a fortune.

Their naivety is delightful.

[GSR 800]

14 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

A combined road rail and canal museum, but small town politics fecked it up.

Might be a different now, what with a Minister in Mullingar, rather than a Minister for Athlone

[west_clare_wanderer]

This might be a controversial point, but I think that there are far, far too many preserved railways in the UK, all competing for the same market share of visitor spend, grants, and donations. I think it is unsustainable. Some sites are quite sad, with lots of items of decaying stock just sitting around, highly unlikely to ever see restoration. 

Why we have no heritage railways in Ireland? I vow to others who are far more knowledgeable than me, but a mix of circumstances, politics, and most importantly money I would suggest lie at the heart of it. But as outlined by @jhb171achill, you are never going to make your millions by running a steam railway! 

Edited Monday at 05:30 by west_clare_wanderer
Spelling

[Galteemore]

45 minutes ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

This might be a controversial point, but I think that there are far, far too many preserved railways in the UK, all competing for the same market share of visitor spend, grants, and donations. I think it is unsustainable. Some sites are quite sad, with lots of items of decaying stock just sitting around, highly unlikely to ever see restoration. 

Why we have no heritage railways in Ireland? I vow to others who are far more knowledgeable than me, but a mix of circumstances, politics, and most importantly money I would suggest lie at the heart of it. But as outlined by @jhb171achill, you are never going to make your millions by running a steam railway! 

It’s not at all controversial. The biggest thing which will affect UK preservation is the demographic timebomb. I am 54 years old - at this age a lot of my parents generation had been able to retire and devote time to other things - such as preserved railways. My generation and those below, the economists tell us, will have to work for longer, depriving the preservation - and other - sectors of the supply of voluntary labour on which they have rested. Only the lines which can operate as commercially self-funding, or have significant private financial backing, will be able to thrive. 

Edited Monday at 05:58 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Its true, there are many, many lines across the big island, even the Isle of Wight has one. It is probably because there is somehow a lot more interest in heritage transport, plus the population being 10-20 times bigger with plenty of large towns and cities close by. Where I live in Kent, we have the Bluebell, Kent & East Sussex and Spa Valley close by, plus the East Kent, Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Sittingbourne & Kemsley, Bredgar & Wormshill, Lavender Line - even Chatham Dockyard. All within an hour's drive and all seemingly doing well.

[chris]

why would you even want a standard gauge setup in Ireland? 

 

NZ is an interesting comparison as there a lots of preserved railway all over the place even though the population is comparable to Ireland but the geography is equivalent to the UK, but there's a clear UK mindset on preserved railways that has made it over here but has not made it in Ireland to the same extent and it's in the mindset of the population to support and travel on these and the multiple mainline runnings that are done.

We run a 7km branchline out of Waitara, a tiny town on the edge of a small provincial city and can still make the numbers work running 2 runs every 2nd sunday, there's no real reason why similar should not be possible out of say Galway which is comparable population wise yet I just don't see it happening in Ireland. Don't know why though, lack of general public interest??, crippling insurance costs?? lack of volunteers??

[minister_for_hardship]

47 minutes ago, chris said:

why would you even want a standard gauge setup in Ireland? 

 

NZ is an interesting comparison as there a lots of preserved railway all over the place even though the population is comparable to Ireland but the geography is equivalent to the UK, but there's a clear UK mindset on preserved railways that has made it over here but has not made it in Ireland to the same extent and it's in the mindset of the population to support and travel on these and the multiple mainline runnings that are done.

We run a 7km branchline out of Waitara, a tiny town on the edge of a small provincial city and can still make the numbers work running 2 runs every 2nd sunday, there's no real reason why similar should not be possible out of say Galway which is comparable population wise yet I just don't see it happening in Ireland. Don't know why though, lack of general public interest??, crippling insurance costs?? lack of volunteers??

You answered your own question; the insurance thing can be overcome, but lack of interest and linked to that lack of volunteers are where these things founder again and again.

People can find loads of spare time and energy to volunteer for all sorts from tidy towns, charities to GAA because those things interest them. Granted there are things on an operating railway that will need special training but most anyone can wield a paintbrush. Culturally, Irish people are not as connected to railways as their counterparts in the UK, and specifically England.

Edited Monday at 07:53 by minister_for_hardship

[GSWR 90]

There are too many people interested in the pie-in-the-sky heritage railways in their heads, rather than the ones in real life that need support. Since manpower/funding/trains/parts are so limited in Ireland compared to Britain, the reality is that preserving our shared railway heritage should be the responsibility of everyone who wants to see it happen, even if it's a few hours' drive away.

The three 5'3" heritage groups in Ireland are all undergoing huge challenges – the ITG has just forked over around €70k to move its locos out of Moyasta, DCDR is still recovering from €3mn worth of damage caused by flooding, and the RPSI hasn't been able to run trains in the North for several years. If you don't care, then you might as well be the reason why there are no 10-mile steam railways sitting on your doorstep.

https://www.downrail.co.uk/join/

https://www.irishtractiongroup.com/join

https://steamtrainsireland.com/membership/joinrenew

Edited Monday at 09:12 by GSWR 90

[Niles]

A volunteer colleague undertook a study of this a few years ago, one taking was that those schemes that have been successful, and endured, in Ireland have been those that started small and developed out, e.g. Stradbally, Downpatrick, Dromod.

Nice as they'd have been, schemes such as Shillelagh-Tinahely, Fenit-Tralee simply would have been too big to have been sustainable (I had a sight of a report which I believe @jhb171achill was involved in regarding the former, there were options for Shillelagh-Tinahely, Tinahely-Woodenbridge, the whole branch, or something to that affect. The figures were mouthwatering).

I suppose Downpatrick, Dromod and Whitehead also have the benefit of being easily accessible by public transport, the former is right beside a bus station and the other two adjacent to mainline rail stations. I know for a fact all three of these have regular enthusiast volunteers not just from the locale but Dublin too.

Local buy-in is another important factor, and it's worth bearing in mind that volunteers don't necessarily have to come from enthusiast ranks, I've known many 'non-enthusiast' people who just like getting involved in something local and have made excellent volunteers.

Edited Monday at 09:13 by Niles

[Mike Beckett]

I vote we move Downpatrick to be closer to everyone on the island so the volunteer problem is solved.

[Westcorkrailway]

32 minutes ago, Mike Beckett said:

I vote we move Downpatrick to be closer to everyone on the island so the volunteer problem is solved.

Not to worry, maam cross is only 4 and a half hours away. As a pose to 5 hours to get to Downpatrick 

[west_clare_wanderer]

1 hour ago, Mike Beckett said:

I vote we move Downpatrick to be closer to everyone on the island so the volunteer problem is solved.

Deal! Where do I sign up!?!

[west_clare_wanderer]

3 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Culturally, Irish people are not as connected to railways as their counterparts in the UK, and specifically England.

That's a really fascinating point. It would probably take an academic paper to explain why that is the case.

Do you think the relevant late arrival and then early demise of many lines in Ireland is the reason for this? Lots of rural railways may have only be around for two generations (for instance the 1890s to 1950s or '60s), so didn't get the foothold in society and local communities as they did in England?  That's just a quick hypothesis, based on no evidence (dangerous I know). Or is something bigger at play here? Perhaps because Ireland remained a largely rural society until the 1980s? 

I have another though..... do you think the lack of preservation schemes may also to some extent mirror the relatively lower wealth, disposable income, and economic base of Ireland until the Celtic tiger revolution? Perhaps in the days when fledgling projects were getting off the ground in Britain - in the 1960s and 1970s - there was (relatively) more money available. Critically, grants. At this time, I just don't think the economics would work to support preservation schemes in Ireland. This lack of money, coupled with the far lower, and more dispersed, population base, could have been an influence.

Feel free to dimiss these thoughts are claptrap. I won't be offended if you think they are rubbish

[Galteemore]

As a rough heuristic, the more industrialised a country is, the more interest in railways there tends to be. Eg  Germany has a more active preservation scene than France. Quite what the law (if law there be) of cause and effect is I cannot say. In terms of grants, that only really kicked in c1980s. 

[Westcorkrailway]

39 minutes ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

That's a really fascinating point. It would probably take an academic paper to explain why that is the case.

Do you think the relevant late arrival and then early demise of many lines in Ireland is the reason for this? Lots of rural railways may have only be around for two generations (for instance the 1890s to 1950s or '60s), so didn't get the foothold in society and local communities as they did in England?  That's just a quick hypothesis, based on no evidence (dangerous I know). Or is something bigger at play here? Perhaps because Ireland remained a largely rural society until the 1980s? 

I have another though..... do you think the lack of preservation schemes may also to some extent mirror the relatively lower wealth, disposable income, and economic base of Ireland until the Celtic tiger revolution? Perhaps in the days when fledgling projects were getting off the ground in Britain - in the 1960s and 1970s - there was (relatively) more money available. Critically, grants. At this time, I just don't think the economics would work to support preservation schemes in Ireland. This lack of money, coupled with the far lower, and more dispersed, population base, could have been an influence.

Feel free to dimiss these thoughts are claptrap. I won't be offended if you think they are rubbish

I wouldn’t call the arrival of the railways in Ireland late as such. There was certainly a decent network built. I think it has something to do with the underlying railway=British=Bad thing. The ROI also has no interest in industrial heritage compared to the pre-18th century sites 

[Flying Snail]

1 hour ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

.... Or is something bigger at play here? Perhaps because Ireland remained a largely rural society until the 1980s? 

I have another though..... do you think the lack of preservation schemes may also to some extent mirror the relatively lower wealth, disposable income, and economic base of Ireland until the Celtic tiger revolution? Perhaps in the days when fledgling projects were getting off the ground in Britain - in the 1960s and 1970s - there was (relatively) more money available. Critically, grants.

I think you're close to the mark here west_clare_wanderer: preservation costs money, something Ireland didn't have much of until after the mid 90s. Even today, when it comes to heritage there is little interest in incurring ongoing expenditure if there's not a clear (monetary) return on the investment.

I don't agree that there's a 'Railways = British = Bad' narrative. I just don't see any evidence for it - outside of this forum, I've never heard anyone suggest anything like that. If there is a prejudice against them, I'd be more inclined to think that it's not that railways are considered British, but instead that they're not considered uniquely Irish. As such, when you consider that a lot of our heritage investments are associated with tourism and generating tourist revenue - then having high running costs and not being uniquely Irish means that they get overlooked.

Edited Monday at 12:31 by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

I apologise if this comes across wrongly, from the other side of the water. I'm thinking about the general interest in various periods of history.

In Britain, the golden age of the railways and industry (perhaps 1840-1940) was also a period when Britain had a lot of global power and influence. Although we now realise that our ancestors abused some of that power badly, a great deal was achieved and there's still a lot of interest in Britain about that period in history. Looking back, even the terrible loss of life and sacrifices in wartime are contrasted with the developments in technology and military power which interest so many people. 

The same century in Ireland was, in many places, marked by tragedies of famine, poverty, mass emigration, civil war, and other troubles. I suspect it's a period that many people would rather not remember or commemorate. That might be why...

45 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

The ROI also has no interest in industrial heritage compared to the pre-18th century sites 

I've seen similar in China, where there is great celebration of the ancient history, and the modern culture, but the 1940's-1970s era of political upheaval, famine and tragedy is not celebrated, sometimes even taboo. 

 

[Killian Keane]

Regardless of the lack of dedicated steam railways here, we're able to run 110+ year old 4-4-0s on the main line, which would be unthinkable and presumably unprofitable in the UK, I even go so far as to say if we had any 2-4-0s surviving they would probably be viable on the main line, could you imagine say the GER T26 or the LSWR T3 going mainline? Always good to look at the positives

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, Killian Keane said:

Regardless of the lack of dedicated steam railways here, we're able to run 110+ year old 4-4-0s on the main line, which would be unthinkable and presumably unprofitable in the UK, I even go so far as to say if we had any 2-4-0s surviving they would probably be viable on the main line, could you imagine say the GER T26 or the LSWR T3 going mainline? Always good to look at the positives

Very true! 

In GB there is some history of smaller locos on the main line too, such as Tyseley's 0-6-0PTs, and a 14xx 0-4-2T, even the steam railmotor, as well as several of the better-known BR standard 2-6-4Ts comparable to the NCC Jeeps. But in GB the economics and available paths definitely favour longer trains, higher speeds, and hence larger locos. In Ireland, while main-line paths remain affordable and with achievable timings, and while heritage rolling stock can remain compatible with modern infrastructure, that will be significantly more cost-effective than any 'new' preserved line. 

I fully agree with the posts above that we need to support existing organisations before thinking of creating new ones.