Junctionmad Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I see in the 2014 review, IE are considering re-engineing the 071's with more fuel efficient stop-start engines . http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2014.pdf?v=gradkca perhaps its the end of the glorious trash we have come to love so well. !! Quote
DiveController Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I see in the 2014 review, IE are considering re-engineing the 071's with more fuel efficient stop-start engines . http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2014.pdf?v=gradkca perhaps its the end of the glorious trash we have come to love so well. !! One wonders how may years it would take to recoup the cost of re-engining the 071s based on the potential fuel saved. While I am in favor of a 'greener' planet and efficiency, the cost of producing or replacing items with 'more efficient' items frequently (if ever) compares the cost (or the carbon footprint) of physically PRODUCING these replacement items before the life of the existing item is complete. Usually the cost comparison involves the cost of the newer PRODUCED item versus the item to be replaced only. It is well known that when you buy a new fuel efficient Prius for example that it takes about 7 years to recoup the additional cost to purchase in terms of fuel saved (and that does not take into account the carbon footprint of producing the batteries etc to produce this 'efficiency') Now, try convincing those at IE "if it's not broken, don't 'fix' it"……….. Quote
Noel Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 The true 'dust2dust' CO2 footprint problem! Only time will tell if re-engining 40yo 071s would be successful or not. If they do proceed then one would assume that capital spend would warrant at least a further 20 years service life - that would be 60 years for the body and chassis!!! What routes are the 201s weight restricted on? The report suggests ballina-waterford, ballina-dublin and tara mines is responsive for most the fright traffic. Can 201s haul those routes? Quote
Mike 84C Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I would think that a major problem will be to source spare parts for 20-40yr old prime movers. Although a two stroke is by design a relatively simple machine it does suffer from unburnt fuel being expelled with exhaust gas. On a smaller scale our company has for years used Deutz aircooled diesels to power bulk discharge on feed trailers. Not any more! emmisions cannot be brought down to acceptable levels and not as fuel efficient as a water cooled engine. Also think HST, Paxman Ventura replaced by MTU diesels. Interestingly one of the most economic diesels I ever came across in HGV"s was the Commer TS3 10/15mpg being quite easy to get. I"m a bit of a stroker fan no wonder my hearings naff Quote
Broithe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Maybe there are regulatory deadlines approaching? Quote
hurricanemk1c Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 201's can definately do Ballina - Dublin (0935 North Wall - Ballina IWT) : Ballina - Waterford (1130 Waterford - Ballina timber): The only problem with Tara is the traverser at North Wall isn't long enough for a 201, being put in to accomodate the longest loco then (the 071/001). 201's are restricted on: Longford - Sligo (emergencies only) Sligo - Sligo Quay (not at all) Arklow - Rosslare Europort (emergencies only) The Asbestos Cement Siding in Athy (not at all) Ballybrophy - Killonan Junction (Nenagh Branch) (emergencies at 25mph maximum) Limerick Jn - Waterford West Cabin (emergencies at 25mph maximum) Limerick - Foynes (not at all at the moment, but not in use at the moment) Limerick - Limerick Cement Factory (emergencies only) Athenry - Tuam (emergencies at 10mph maximum) Mullingar - Athlone (emergencies only) There are some routes with loco-hauled maximum speed restrictions, but these apply to all locos, not just 201 class. All of the above at normal line speed unless otherwise stated / train restrictions To be honest, I'd expect the 201's to be re-engined rather than the 071. There's talk of EU funding for it and I can see it making more sense. For one - the body is bigger, making it easier to fit an EU Stage IIIB engine into the loading gauge. If there's money, an engine will be made. And for thrash - the UK Class 68 makes a pretty impressive noise! And as for spare parts - EMD still make two stroke engines - the 710 is still a popular engine and they are making emission kits for the marine 645 engine. Quote
Garfield Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Longford - Sligo (emergencies only) Was that restriction not lifted after the Shannon bridge was replaced? Quote
GSR 800 Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Could they use the Mullingar athlone line on emergencies? It's in pretty bad shape after the yard. Their axle load could seriously damage the track. But that's only my opinion. Quote
ttc0169 Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Was that restriction not lifted after the Shannon bridge was replaced? Patrick-the restriction applied to the river bridge at Ballisodare,which has since been refurbished, There is now no restriction on the operation of the 071/201s locomotives on the entire Sligo line. Quote
hurricanemk1c Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 That was from the 2013 Working Timetables, so a touch out of date but still reasonably relevant Quote
snapper Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 The only lines that are in use and have 201 restrictions are Killonan to Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction to Waterford. Quote
Noel Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Was that restriction not lifted after the Shannon bridge was replaced? When that railway bridge was raised higher it was easier for boats on the Shannon to fit under without having to drop gear. It was a tight squeeze when water levels were high. There are a number of bord-na-mona light railway bridges over other parts of the Shannon. It kind of makes sense to re-engine 201s rather than 40yo 071s, but I was told apparently the some of the 071s have been practically totally rebuilt including chassis and body structure making some of them effectively almost new builds - myth or true, I know not. Quote
Junctionmad Posted June 12, 2015 Author Posted June 12, 2015 The 2014 rail review clearly indicates its the older locomotives that are being considered It would never be justified to re-engine the relatively newer 201s ,. especially since most are lying idle Quote
Garfield Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 When that railway bridge was raised higher it was easier for boats on the Shannon to fit under without having to drop gear. It was a tight squeeze when water levels were high. There are a number of bord-na-mona light railway bridges over other parts of the Shannon. Indeed, but what has this got to do with route clearance for the 201s? Quote
Warbonnet Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 The 2014 rail review clearly indicates its the older locomotives that are being considered It would never be justified to re-engine the relatively newer 201s ' date='. especially since most are lying idle[/quote'] It states 20-40 year old 2 stroke locomotives in your link. The 201s are 20 years old. Quote
Noel Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Was that restriction not lifted after the Shannon bridge was replaced? Indeed, but what has this got to do with route clearance for the 201s? Well it was your good self who mentioned that the bridge replacement effected the 201 route restriction, and I just mentioned the co-incidental side effect impact it had on Shannon leisure boat traffic, because it is a bridge I knew well and passed under it more times than I travelled over it. Remembering the old bridge I can understand why it had a 201 weight restriction. That sligo line was in an appalling state until the track was upgraded some years ago and had fairly severe speed restrictions. On IR's plan to investigate engine replacement on 20yo or 40yo locos, if fuel efficiency is the reason, one has to wonder about the true economic sense as the payback in fuel savings is unlikely to recoup the capital costs unless they get 100% EU grant aid. If emissions are the reason, EU emissions regs only apply to purchasing new locos or new engines, so doubt they can be forced to stop using the old 071s and 201s, unless nanny Ireland wants to waste public money being good europeans without a binding legal requirement to do so. On the other hand if the engines in the 071 and/or 201s are so clapped out and excessively expensive to keep in service, replacing the motors would seem a sensible and less expensive option than buying new locos. Are the loco shops in Inchicore capable of machining parts needed for the old EMD engines including pistons, liners, shafts, rods, etc, or do they depend on buying spares from EMD? I assume the former but that's just a wild guess. Quote
Mayner Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Electro-motive seems to have lost serious market share to General Electric and other manufacturers in recent years. Partially to do with the thirsty 2 stroke engine and difficulty in developing a prime mover that meets American & European emission requirements. Locally Kiwirail are replacing General Motors 645 powered locos with MTU powered Chinese imports but planning to retain GE U Boats for their fuel economy and superior low speed haulage ability on heavy freights on steeply graded twisty lines. About 10 years ago IE were considering replacing the 201s on MK4 passenger services with "light weight power cars" something that would have made more sense than re-powering the 201s & 071s as most of the high speed milage is on fast passenger rather than freight traffic. Mullingar-Athlone would need major investment even to be maintained as a diversionary route. The line is disconnected at the Athlone end, most of the sleepers needed replacement and rails were burred over about 20 years ago. Quote
GSR 800 Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Still are there about 6 miles from Mullingar station Quote
Blaine Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Still are there about 6 miles from Mullingar station Its a long siding now..... Quote
GSR 800 Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 I would say it keeps going much further as I remember seeing what I believed was the line, at athlone, cut off just where a level crossing would have been Quote
Garfield Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 I would say it keeps going much further as I remember seeing what I believed was the line, at athlone, cut off just where a level crossing would have been It's still in place all the way between Athlone and Mullingar, but the fact it is disconnected at the Athlone end means it is now regarded as a long siding, as mentioned above. Can we get this thread back on-topic now? Quote
hurricanemk1c Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Topic bump There's an interesting little sentence or two in Tony Miles' article in Modern Railways this month that is relevant. "...installing a new multi-engine arrangement using two or even three engines is a viable project [in the Class 201 fleet]. Procurement is underway, with the plan being to carry out the repowering of the 34 locos (2 are owned by NIR) in two phases - 22 starting in 2016 and then the remaining 12 before 2020" Catch those 12-710's before they are gone! Quote
Warbonnet Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I wonder what work the additional locos will be doing considering there's no work for them at the moment? Quote
snapper Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I cant seem to find any tender for this, this is the only thing i can see for 201s Adhesion Enhancing Wheel Rail Sanding Systems for 201 Locomotive and 2600 DMU Fleets. Quote
GSR 800 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I wonder what work the additional locos will be doing considering there's no work for them at the moment? Some to be used for the new express? Quote
Jawfin Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The maps on the MK IVs don't go any further than Dublin-Cork, remember! Quote
jhb171achill Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 New maps needed! Derry - Belfast - Dublin - Cork - Bantry...... Quote
snapper Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 New maps needed! Derry - Belfast - Dublin - Cork - Bantry...... Well they recently got pass to run to Tralee, Connolly and Dundalk Quote
hurricanemk1c Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Well they recently got pass to run to Tralee, Connolly and Dundalk They aren't actually passed yet - paperwork issue. They just fit (mostly). One option would be a withdrawal of the 071's (with alterations at the Tara Mines siding at Alexandra Dock Road). Not all 18 071's are needed daily. 3/4 for Taras, 3/4 for liners/timbers and a couple for PW. Pure speculation at this stage. As for the tender, it's out there somewhere - Modern Railways and Tony Miles are very reliable sources, and I heard a rumour that this was happening in late June Quote
Mayner Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Topic bump There's an interesting little sentence or two in Tony Miles' article in Modern Railways this month that is relevant. "...installing a new multi-engine arrangement using two or even three engines is a viable project [in the Class 201 fleet]. Procurement is underway, with the plan being to carry out the repowering of the 34 locos (2 are owned by NIR) in two phases - 22 starting in 2016 and then the remaining 12 before 2020" Catch those 12-710's before they are gone! The thirsty two stroke EMD power units may be on the way out, Electromotive lost market share to GE & other builders in recent years. Perhaps Caterpillar have developed re-powering kits for EMD locos since taking over Electromotive. Quote
Warbonnet Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The thirsty two stroke EMD power units may be on the way out, Electromotive lost market share to GE & other builders in recent years. Perhaps Caterpillar have developed re-powering kits for EMD locos since taking over Electromotive. GE bypassed EMD in the early 80s when it came to US loco sales with a combination of great deals and the then new SD50 being appalling. However it's interesting that there's not one of the pre Dash 8 era GE locos left running on class 1 railroads while EMD locos of similar and earlier vintage are still running in their thousands. There is also the new emissions regulations which came into force in January. Not many engines out there are now suitable for locomotives. It'll be interesting to see what IE comes up with turning a relatively simple EMD 2 stroke loco into a complex multi engined rebuild that will have to jump through heaps of red tape. The world has changed since the A Class rebuild, does inchicore still even possess the required skills for such a massive project? Be surprised if it happened myself. Quote
aclass007 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Is the multi-engine arrangement currently in use in locomotives in other countries, or is it a totally new concept? Quote
GSR 800 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The maps on the MK IVs don't go any further than Dublin-Cork, remember! I meant that new non stop express with no business class from Dublin to cork, I can understand where you were going. I agree the mk4s should have a larger amount of outage as well as the 201s Quote
jhb171achill Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I've a notion that there's some old BR class being rebuilt this way in the UK - possibly as an experiment, though? Not sure otherwise.... Quote
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