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Murphy's CIE Mk IId coaches - What's What

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FrankS

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FrankS Collaborator

FrankS

Posted
Posted

Hi guys,

I only just realised that the Mk IId coaches come into my modelling time period (CIE) and I've tried to work out which of the Murphy Models coaches already available and new releases are appropriate. But, frankly I can't make head nor tail of them :confused::confused:

 

Murphy Models website is completly useless, saying only:

Mark IId Coaches in CIE, IR, IE & Galway liveries. Good Stock available

Irish Rail Mark IId Coaches (2011 model) in CIE, IR & IE liveries. Due Autumn 2012

Irish Rail Mark IId EGV Due Autumn 2012

But, not listing or illustrating which are which.

The IRM database lists only IE coaches and Hattons lists numbers (without illustrations) which I can't find anywhere else ie 5601,5411,5232,5217 & 5229)

 

HELP :confused:

 

Can one of you knowlegable people out the please tell me Just which numbers of the MM IIds ALREADY released are suitable for CIE and which of those TO BE released are suitable for CIE, please.

 

ALSO, The "Galway Livery" can you tell me just what this is, please and what time period it covers.

 

Any and all HELP much appreciated,

Cheers,

FrankS,

busy tearing his hair out while standing on his head - NOT an easy trick :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

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aclass007 Proficient

aclass007

Posted
Posted

No CIE liveried MK11's have been released yet. They are, or at least were, planned. They will basically be the orange/black livery, with no white stripes. As snapper said, the cravens are available in CIE livery, and can still be got from some retailers....

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islandbridgejct Community Regular

islandbridgejct

Posted
Posted

That's right. The CIE supertrain livery was orange and black, with no white stripe and an orange roof, and has not been released yet. It was used on the Mk IIs until Irish Rail painted white stripes, black ends, and - later - black roofs on these carriages. (Subject to correction about when the black ends came in, but originally the orange and black stripe continued up to the gangway, like on a Mk III.

 

I'm always a bit puzzled when people talk about the 'Galway' livery. I presume it is the orange with black band around the windows, not extending as far as the doors which remained orange and some yellow lining. It's a late IE livery and needn't concern you.

 

Most of the Irish retailers will correctly list their carriages as IE, IR or CIE, depending on era, so you should be able to rely on their description. You're looking for CIE.

 

You'll need to either wait for the CIE version to be released or else paint out the white stripe. As far as I recall, the white stripe was added over an area that was originally orange - the black stripe remained the same width after repainting. Again, someone else on this site may correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Alan

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josefstadt Mentor

josefstadt

Posted
Posted

In late 1999 IÉ received approval for a limited refurbishment of the Mk IId fleet. Standard class coach 5225 was selected as the prototype and entered Inchicore Works in early 2000. Further Standards 5209, 5213, 5216, 5232, 5233 and 5235, along with Restaurant Standard 5411 and EGV 5601 were refurbished during 2000 and early 2001. Seven of the vehicles re-entered traffic in May 2001, the other two 5209 and 5232 being completed in September. All were treated for bodywork corrosion and were rewired, while the Standards and 5411 also received new carpets, seats, curtains, tables, toilet fittings and interior ceiling panels. A new exterior colour scheme, a modified version of the 201 livery, was applied and at the doors large markings indicated the vehicle class, no smoking and seat numbers, in a similar fashion to those used throughout Europe. The cost of the refurbishment of the nine vehicles was put at approximately €1 million.

 

The vehicles initially worked in mixed sets with unrefurbished stock. They were then put together into a dedicated set for the Galway line, hence the description ‘Galway Livery’, for use on the 05:20 Galway-Dublin, 11:00 Dublin-Galway, 15:10 Galway-Dublin and 19:05 Dublin-Galway. The refurbished set was launched by the then Minister for Public Enterprise, Mary O’Rourke TD, on 23 July 2001 in conjunction with the 150th anniversary of the MGWR reaching Galway. The Minister travelled on a special train formed of 5601, 5411, 5213, 5216, 5225, 5233 and 5235 and which was hauled by 210, itself recently repainted.

 

There is a good photo of a re-liveried coach in the carriage shop at Inchicore in IRRS Journal No. 146, Page 176.

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FrankS Collaborator

FrankS

Posted
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Posted

Hi Guys,

Thanx for the info, makes things a lot clearer, now. There aren't any CIE Mk IIds for me to find :tumbsup:

Also, the "official" reply I received from MM:

Sorry for confusion. CIE Mkiid coaches are not yet available. Web needs updating. Late next year is probably the earliest they can be made, it all depends on slots in the production schedule.

 

When I saw MM WEbsite said that there were : Good Stock available of Mark IId Coaches in CIE, IR, IE & Galway liveries.

and yet I couldn't find a listing or photo anywhere ~ I thought senile dementia was setting in.

Mind you senile dementia coupled with a second childhood proceeding into 2nd puberty could have been great fun :banana: Do everything I wanted - and claim I couldn't remember ANY OF IT - BLISS :ROFL:

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Irishswissernie Grand Master

Irishswissernie

Posted
Posted

They definitely made it to Limerick City so would have passed round the 'new' curve at the Junction but I havn't found any images of  any actually passing through or calling at the station yet.

This one Limerick City June 2001

b Limerick 150 sta pilot June 2001 a940

 

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Noel Grand Master

Noel

Posted
Posted

IMHO the Galway livery was a short lived abomination that was designed to brand match the newly delivered orange 201s. Instead the 201 locos ran with tippex Mk2 and Mk3 coaches and looked quite incompatible due livery mismatch.

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Ironroad Proficient

Ironroad

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Noel said:

IMHO the Galway livery was a short lived abomination that was designed to brand match the newly delivered orange 201s. Instead the 201 locos ran with tippex Mk2 and Mk3 coaches and looked quite incompatible due livery mismatch.

This was something different and adds interest, Variety is the spice of life.

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murphaph Grand Master

murphaph

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Rob said:

You going to model something based around Limerick?   Lots of questions about Limerick 🤣🤣🤣

Yeah I believe I will when I have moved on from rolling stock collection mode. Some very interesting possibilities in a Limerick junction/Limerick/Foynes/Nenagh layout. 

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Broithe Grand Master

Broithe

Posted
Posted
34 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Ooh that's nice. I'm not a huge fan of the livery but the odd one mixed in like that is a nice option to have. 

 

I saw an odd one a few times through Ballybrophy, but I have no presentable evidence of any of the events..

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murphaph Grand Master

murphaph

Posted
Posted

Can some kind soul provide me with a comprehensive list of the mkIIds that MM has produced? Here in thread for the benefit of all if possible, otherwise per PM. Much appreciated! I'm getting a bit confused here.

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Old Blarney Proficient

Old Blarney

Posted
Posted (edited)
 
shapes.dll?CMD=GetRectangleGif&r=0&g=0&b
Irish model railway Coaches / Carriages
shapes.dll?CMD=GetRectangleGif&r=0&g=0&b
Irish Rail Mark IId coaches in IE livery (Lima). sold out since 2003
Irish Rail Mark IId coaches in"Galway Livery" (Lima) sold out since 2003
Irish Rail Mark IIA coaches in IE and IR livery (Bachmann) A handful still available as of July 2012
Irish Rail Mark III coaches in IE livery (Lima) sold out since 2003
Irish Rail Mark III Restaurant coach in IE livery (Lima) sold out since 2003
Irish Rail Mark III coaches in Executive livery (Lima) sold out since 2003
NIR (Northern Irish Rail) Mark II coach set (Lima) sold out since 2003
CIE 1st/3rd coach, Brake/3rd coach and full 3rd Class coach in Green CIE livery with "Flying Snail" logo (Bachmann). A handful still available as of September 2013
Irish Rail Craven Coaches including Snack Car. Later livery.(Murphy Models). A handful still available as of September 2013
Irish Rail Craven coaches including First Class version. Early Livery. (Murphy Models)
Irish Rail Mark IId Coaches (2011 model) in CIE, IR & IE liveries. (Murphy Models) Check stockists
Irish Rail Mark IId EGV (Murphy Models) Check stockists
Edited by Old Blarney
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murphaph Grand Master

murphaph

Posted
Posted

Cheers Old Blarney I'm familiar with that MM portfolio page. I was really hoping for a listing with running numbers 😉 and brief description (ST, IE, Std, 1st, Diner, EGV etc.)

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Old Blarney Proficient

Old Blarney

Posted
Posted

I'll need to find my rolling stock books and look at them. They will provide an answer to numbers carried on coaches - as to whether or not they distinguish between the various incarnations I cannot say! Can you be more specific in describing exactly what it is you wish to know? CIE, MK IID,  introduced in 1972 (if my memory serves me correctly) - 1987 CIE became Irish Rail,  (IR) The former Golden Brown and Black livery had a white stripe  added to separate the two colours above and below the carriage windows. Various changes/alterations were made to composite coaches. I'm sure there are references to such alterations on/in these forums.   Let me search - when I find my books!!

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iarnrod Mentor

iarnrod

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Can some kind soul provide me with a comprehensive list of the mkIIds that MM has produced? Here in thread for the benefit of all if possible, otherwise per PM. Much appreciated! I'm getting a bit confused here.

Information on every Irish railway model ever commercially released is in the above thread, courtesy of Mr. Wrenneire of this parish.

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WRENNEIRE Grand Master

WRENNEIRE

Posted
Posted (edited)

"Kind soul?" I think a few on here would argue that point with you Murph

First page on the thread, Lima/MM Mk 2d's, 5201,5102, 5223 & 5228


Page 4, Lima/MM Galway Mk2d's, 5216, 5225 & 5235
Also the Lima/MM NIR Mk2a set, 911, 924 & 933
And the later Lima/MM Galway Mk2d's, 5209. 5232 & 5233


Page 5 has the Bachmann/MM Mk2a's 
Set MM4101 IR 4101 & 4108
Set MM4102 IR 4102 & 4110
Set MM4108 IE 4101 & 4108 
Set MM4110 IE 4102 & 4110


Page 8 has the first of the MM Mk2d's in InterCity Livery
MM5401 Restaurant, Black Roof
MM5407 Restaurant, Orange Roof
MM5602 EGV Black Roof
MM5609 EGV, Orange Roof
MM5236 Standard Orange Roof

Page 9 has the rest of the Mk2d's in InterCity livery
MM5411 Restaurant, Galway Livery
MM5601 EGV Galway Livery
MM5210 Standard Black Roof
MM5217 Standard Black Roof
MM5219 Standard Orange Roof

Page 10 has Lima, non Murphy Mk 2 coaches
305304S Mk2d InterCity, unnumbered
305306 Mk2a Standard Both Orange 7 Black roofed came in the same numbered box, unnumbered
Set L106300X2 CAME WITH 2 Mk2d InterCity coaches, unnumbered

Page 11 has Hornby Mk 2 coaches
Set R383 Slainte Express set, 2 Mk 2a coaches, unnumbered
R720 Mk 2a open, unnumbered
R721 Brake end, unnumbered

Page 17 Mk2d Supertrain coaches, first issue
MM5101 Is Class
MM5151 Composite
MM5201 Standard
MM5215 Standard
MM5223 Standard
MM5403 Diner
MM5604 EGV
MM5608 EGV

Page 27 MM/RPSI Mk2d's
MM1701 Standard #180
MM1702 Standard #301
MM1703 Brake End #460

Page 30 MM Second issue Supertrain Mk2d's
MM5102 First Class
MM5152 Composite
MM5202 Standard
MM5214 Standard
MM5224 Standard
MM5402 Diner
MM5408 Diner
MM5605 EGV

 



 

 

Edited by WRENNEIRE
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hexagon789 Proficient

hexagon789

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

Various changes/alterations were made to composite coaches. I'm sure there are references to such alterations on/in these forums.   Let me search - when I find my books!!

If like me, you've made a master list showing each coach by year you'll know that's a minefield of near epic proportions!

Seriously though, in the UK changes to coach layouts are very well documented in books and official papers, in Ireland the books referencing rolling stock aren't published very frequently.

I got sufficiently narked with disagreeing sources I made my own list.

 

If anyone is interested let me know and I can put it up in another thread (Mk2D and Mk3 types only). It's seating layout only, liveries are another minefield which I don't fancy treading through! ;)

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WRENNEIRE Grand Master

WRENNEIRE

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, murphaph said:

@WRENNEIRE just for any future visitors to this great list, you might want to correct MM541 to MM5411 if I'm not mistaken.

Started this at 2am this morning, the few bottles of Bulmers must not have worn off, DOH

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DJ Dangerous Grand Master

DJ Dangerous

Posted
Posted

Were the Murphy Models InterCity Mk2D's the same internally / cosmetically as their SuperTrain counterparts?

As in, would MM5236 (IE Standard Orange Roof), MM5210 (IE Standard Black Roof), MM5217 (IE Standard Black Roof), MM5219 (IE Standard Orange Roof(, MM5201 (ST Standard), MM5215 (ST Standard) and MM5223 (ST Standard) all be the same apart from the livery?

MM5202 (ST Standard), MM5214 (ST Standard) and MM5224 (ST Standard) were repaints of the earlier ST coaches, I believe.

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hexagon789 Proficient

hexagon789

Posted
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Were the Murphy Models InterCity Mk2D's the same internally / cosmetically as their SuperTrain counterparts?

As in, would MM5236 (IE Standard Orange Roof), MM5210 (IE Standard Black Roof), MM5217 (IE Standard Black Roof), MM5219 (IE Standard Orange Roof(, MM5201 (ST Standard), MM5215 (ST Standard) and MM5223 (ST Standard) all be the same apart from the livery?

MM5202 (ST Standard), MM5214 (ST Standard) and MM5224 (ST Standard) were repaints of the earlier ST coaches, I believe.

The only vehicles which never changed internal layout were the Standards 5201-5236.

The Superstandards (5101-5106) were covered to 56 or 62 seat Standards between 1985 and 1987, though 5106 remained Superstandard until the late 1990s for the Enterprise, it being converted to Standard in about 1998/9 (I can get the exact year if needed).

The Composites (5151-5159) were very variable. 5 were converted very early in May/April 1973 to 54-seat Standards (5153-5156 and 5158). The remainder remained as Composites until 1988 though were declassified in the early/mid-1980s. Only 3 were actually internally composites by 1988 but in that year it was decided to reinstate Superstandard on Sligo line trains and so one was converted back (not one of the remaining post-1973 ones but one converted to Standard in that year).

The Sligo line lost its by then First Class accommodation in about 2000/2001 but two composites survived as such internally until 2004 (5152 and 5156), 5156 was still such in May 2005.

For the Kitchen Standards the only major change was removing 4 seats for wheelchair space in the 1990s.

So yes, all the vehicles you've quoted would be identical internally unless as they are all the 52xx series Standards seating 64.

Edited by hexagon789
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DJ Dangerous Grand Master

DJ Dangerous

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, hexagon789 said:

The only vehicles which never changed internal layout were the Standards 5201-5236.

The Superstandards (5101-5106) were covered to 56 or 62 seat Standards between 1985 and 1987, though 5106 remained Superstandard until the late 1990s for the Enterprise, it being converted to Standard in about 1998/9 (I can get the exact year if needed).

The Composites (5151-5159) were very variable. 5 were converted very early in May/April 1973 to 54-seat Standards (5153-5156 and 5158). The remainder remained as Composites until 1988 though were declassified in the early/mid-1980s. Only 3 were actually internally composites by 1988 but in that year it was decided to reinstate Superstandard on Sligo line trains and so one was converted back (not one of the remaining post-1973 ones but one converted to Standard in that year).

The Sligo line lost its by then First Class accommodation in about 2000/2001 but two composites survived as such internally until 2004 (5152 and 5156), 5156 was still such in May 2005.

For the Kitchen Standards the only major change was removing 4 seats for wheelchair space in the 1990s.

So yes, all the vehicles you've quoted would be identical internally unless as they are all the 52xx series Standards seating 64.

Incredibly detailed reply, thank you!

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hexagon789 Proficient

hexagon789

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Incredibly detailed reply, thank you!

No problem, I spent long enough researching the Mk2D fleet so I should know plenty about them by now! ;)

If you ever need an individual vehicle number checked I have a master list I compiled which I can refer to.

Edited by hexagon789
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DJ Dangerous Grand Master

DJ Dangerous

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

No problem, I spent long enough researching the Mk2D fleet so I should know plenty about them by now! ;)

If you ever need an individual vehicle number checked I have a master list I compiled which I can refer to.

Wow, that is impressive!

As an aside, were the Mk2D's ever hauled by locos still in black, or only by SuperTrain locos and later?

I'm sure that @Irishswissernie

 @jhb171achill
 will have photographic evidence if so!

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