Would you model in 21mm if RTR track and models were readily available?

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Studio Scale Models 6 Wheelers
Came in a set of Five
1st


Comp


All 3rd


Brake 3rd






Undercarriage detail

The SSM GSWR 6 wheelers were originally supplied boxed in sets of 5. In recent years under Des Sullivan's ownership the coaches were available individually unboxed.

[WRENNEIRE]

Couple of Midland wagons this morning
And a GSWR van

 

 

 

[DiveController]

On 11/2/2024 at 8:17 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

Superbowl???
They want to think of a new name for it!
Answers on a postcard.......

What’s a postcard?  

[Mayner]

7 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Couple of Midland wagons this morning
And a GSWR van

 

 

 

The Midland & GSWR Convertibles are Studio Scale Models and may still be available.

The MGWR Coal Wagons are "Jeremy Suter Irish Kits" One batch produced 20 years ago, the Rolls Royce of whitemetal kits rare by any standards.

[Horsetan]

On 21/2/2024 at 7:25 AM, David Holman said:

Whoever built all these certainly knew what they were doing. Single maker or more than one/separate painter? 

Interestingly, having looked at all the photos so far, it does look to me like there's a slight variation in the depth of the wheel flanges amongst some of the models. 

[WRENNEIRE]

This mornings offering is GNR 86 Peregrine
One of the V Class compounds called after birds of prey, 83 Eagle, 84 Falcon, 85 Merlin, 86 Peregrine &  87 Kestrel.


 

 

[Galteemore]

Unusual to see a model in the original 1932 livery - and with the correct non-Belpaire firebox.

[Mayner]

22 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Interestingly, having looked at all the photos so far, it does look to me like there's a slight variation in the depth of the wheel flanges amongst some of the models. 

There are variations in wheel profile between different manufacturers of so called EMF profile wheels, which may affect flange depth.

There was variance in thread width  between earlier and later batches of Sharman B profile wheels.

The EMF Standard specifies:                                                                 P4 Standard secified

F T (effective thickness) 25-thou/0.65mm                            FT (Effective) 0.35-0.40mm

      Flange depth varies.

TW (tyre width) 90-thou-2.28                                                 TW             1.85-2.00mm

Standard info from Tables 1 and 2 "An Approach to Building FINESCALE TRACK in 4mm Iain Rice 1991

Specifying a max-min makes more sense from a manufacturing perspective than specifying an absolute.

                            Sharman

Actual TW          TMD Midland Tank    Sharman B Profile  1984-5     2.25-2.29 mm

                             SSM SG2                   Sharman B Profile  2002-3    2.14- 2.17mm

                             TMD J15                    Sharman B Profile   1994-5     2.16-2.19mm

                              SSM S                        Gibson EMF Profile  2002-3      2.27mm

                               Coach wheel             Ultrascale EMF                         2.23-2.27

I measured TWs using a calipers with a digital read out: 

The Sharman B profile wheels were set with a B-B of 19.5 using a TMD B-B gauge same B-B ran without problems on the MRSI Loughrea laid to EMF Standards on which group members used a combination of Ultrascale and Jackson (wagon and coach) wheels set with a B-B of 19.3. 

A 19.5mm B-B was used on locos and stock built by Tim Cramer featured in a Railway Modeller article in the early 70s, locos built by Tim included a Bandon Tank, GSWR 90, a Midland Tank and a J15 Chassis.

I now set the B-B on locos fitted with Gibson or Ultrascale wheels to 19.3 which is consistent when using EMF profile wheels and running clearances.

Dave:

Is Brian who built the majority of the locos and stock that ran on the Loughrea Layout still with us or able to advise? Frank who was the guiding light in terms of trackwork passed away several years ago.  I got involved when I returned for the UK in the mid 90s after most of the hard work was done 

Restoring the layout would be a great way of acknowledging the effort of the team that came up with the idea, built and worked on the layout all those years ago.

Edited February 23 by Mayner

[WRENNEIRE]

John
Brian's wife passed some years back and he took it very hard, hasn't been seen in the club since
As stated earlier I hope to resurrect Loughrea after our 3 day show in October
I managed to pick up a few bits from Brian from the layout and will post some pics when the current 21mm stuff is all posted

[WRENNEIRE]

Finally the last of the locos
UTA ex NCC Class W Mogul "Earl of Ulster" #97
There were 15 in the class and were named after British Nobility and Northern rivers, with the last 4 having not been named.

[David Holman]

Another stunner. Interesting to read about back to back standards. I used 19.3 on Fintonagh for wagon and coach wheels (Branchlines), with Code 83 rail and 1mm flangeways. The wheels have fairly fine treads and anything more than 0.3mm out can cause problems. Could be my track laying though!

[Galteemore]

Lovely. IIRC 97 was also the last to exist and almost made it to preservation. 

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Lovely. IIRC 97 was also the last to exist and almost made it to preservation. 

RPSI have quietly made considerable strides over the last decade in building an all-new one.

[Galteemore]

27 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

RPSI have quietly made considerable strides over the last decade in building an all-new one.

Yes, I am aware of that. My heart applauds the project. My head says a second WT would have been a more prudent use of the spare parts. These spares - the boiler and wheels - are the core of the second Jeep that the RPSI could - and would have - bought in 1971 had the funds been available. I was born in Carrickfergus in spring 1971 - only realised recently that a mile from the hospital a number of Jeeps still slumbered awaiting their appointment with the oxy torch. But I don’t want to disrupt @WRENNEIREs thread. Hopefully he’s got a 21mm WT to post!! 

Edited February 24 by Galteemore

[Horsetan]

22 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes, I am aware of that. My heart applauds the project. My head says a second WT would have been a more prudent use of the spare parts. These spares - the boiler and wheels - are the core of the second Jeep that the RPSI could - and would have - bought in 1971 had the funds been available. I was born in Carrickfergus in spring 1971 - only realised recently that a mile from the hospital a number of Jeeps still slumbered awaiting their appointment with the oxy torch. But I don’t want to disrupt @WRENNEIREs thread. Hopefully he’s got a 21mm WT to post!! 

The wheels and some of the motion were salvaged from no.54, I think. I don't think the RPSI managed to save a spare boiler, otherwise they wouldn't be building an all new boiler and firebox now.

Interesting to note that the driving wheel pattern is the same one used on the LMS Black Five. 

[Galteemore]

Thanks - sadly my RPSI knowledge has lapsed from the minute by minute currency I had in my childhood! There are a few spare boiler projects kicking around in GB so my synapses must have made a false connection … Going back to those RPSI days, when I basically travelled on any trip doing fundraising,  the carriage officer was Alan Edgar, who later built this superb 21mm Mogul 

 

 

Edited February 24 by Galteemore

[leslie10646]

10 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Finally the last of the locos
UTA ex NCC Class W Mogul "Earl of Ulster" #97
There were 15 in the class and were named after British Nobility and Northern rivers, with the last 4 having not been named.

Lovely model, Dave, but Wikipedia (or somewhere else) has led you astray.

No. 101 was named Lord Massereene in September 1949. "As Every Schoolboy Knows" Viscount Massereene and Ferrard cut the first sod on the Belfast and Ballymena Railway on 6 November 1845 at Whitehouse, Co Antrim - so an appropriate acknowledgment, albeit a century late!

No.103 was named Thomas Somerset in March 1943. Mr Somerset was Chairman of the NCC.

As you can clearly see! Limavady Junction 1948. Photo by Henry Casserley, copyright The Syndicate

[Horsetan]

25 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Thanks - sadly my RPSI knowledge has lapsed from the minute by minute currency I had in my childhood! There are a few spare boiler projects kicking around in GB so my synapses must have made a false connection … Going back to those RPSI days, when I basically travelled on any trip doing fundraising,  the carriage officer was Alan Edgar, who later built this superb 21mm Mogul 

 

 

Alan's Irish 21mm output is sublime

[WRENNEIRE]

This is from the original Loughrea stock
I dont know if it ever ran on the layout but came from the Loughrea stock

 

[Mayner]

As far as I recall Brian Fennell had TMD/SSM  CIE J15, GNR S Class 4-4-0 (Black) GNR GG 0-6-0 a 3 Coach rake of SSM GNR Coaches (2 K15 Open+ 1 Brake end)  Rake (5 coaches) SSM GSWR  6 wheel coaches GSR Maroon 1 assembled as a MGWR coach, Scratchbuilt -rake 10-15-Irish Standard Covered Wagons (GNR/MGWR) rake GSWR Cattle Wagons. 

Brian also had a Bandon Tank scracthbuilt by Tim Cramer during the early 70s, Tim disposed of his 4mm collection through Southern Model Railways when he moved up to O Gauge.

All operated ran well at exhibitions, locos had Ultrascale Wheels and Mashima Motors, Wagons were scratchbuilt in plasticard ran on Jackson (brass) wheels on 28mm pin point axle (probably machined by Brian), all stock were fitted with Kadee No 36 couplers. Kadees were very reliable in operation with delayed un-coupling though shunting 14' GSWR cattle wagons cou;d be trick due to the short length of the wagons, I used ran my 14' GNR cattle wagons in pairs with 3 link coupling at one end Kadee at the other avoiding the accidental uncoupling problem when making up a train.

Another member had a 21mm gauge GN JT 2-4-2T a RTR model produced by the late Harry Connaughton a commercial model maker during the early 1970s

TMD J15 191 arriving with a cattle train at MRSI Exhibition Clontarf 2002.

With readily available TMD/SSM loco and carriage kits, none of us scratchbuilt the correct (ex) Midland locos or stock to run on the layout.

Edited March 7 by Mayner

[Fiacra]

I came across this chap's YouTube channel recently, and it's very informative for anybody interested in finescale modelling and scratchbuilding. He has a few videos in which he describes how to use Templot and 3D printing/laser cutting to produce bespoke trackwork, and this looks like a viable option for 21 mm track. I've never used Templot, but my understanding is that it includes 21 mm templates, so it should be straight forward to produce 21 mm track and points. Has anybody here tried this approach?

 

[Horsetan]

4 hours ago, Fiacra said:

I came across this chap's YouTube channel recently, and it's very informative for anybody interested in finescale modelling and scratchbuilding. He has a few videos in which he describes how to use Templot and 3D printing/laser cutting to produce bespoke trackwork, and this looks like a viable option for 21 mm track. I've never used Templot, but my understanding is that it includes 21 mm templates, so it should be straight forward to produce 21 mm track and points. Has anybody here tried this approach?

 

Templot will do pretty much any gauge you specify, within reason.

I've seen a Plugtrack sample in the flesh and, for what it is, it's very good since you can potentially print out endless stretches of P4-standard 5'3" with pointwork to match.

The only thing it doesn't do is have chairs that replicate the inward 1-in-20 tilt of the rail heads - the software isn't advanced enough to do this - so in this respect it's not that different to the old Hornby-Dublo and Triang-Hornby RTR track with strictly vertical rail (teamed with steamroller tyres and pizza cutter flanges)

[murphaph]

James' videos are a really good explainer of what's possible. I follow the Templot forum discussion on "Plugtrack" and it is still very much "experimental" according to Martin Wynne (the man behind Templot) but it is possible to turn out (sorry!) functioning track that looks better than anything you can make using traditional methods I feel (except flat bottom rail on timber sleepers....it can only do Bullhead rail at present and that may stay that way in 4mm scale as the clips that would be needed to hold flat bottomed rail in place would be absolutely miniscule and extremely fragile (in 4mm scale anyway).

[Horsetan]

5 minutes ago, murphaph said:

James' videos are a really good explainer of what's possible. I follow the Templot forum discussion on "Plugtrack" and it is still very much "experimental" according to Martin Wynne (the man behind Templot) but it is possible to turn out (sorry!) functioning track that looks better than anything you can make using traditional methods I feel (except flat bottom rail on timber sleepers....it can only do Bullhead rail at present and that may stay that way in 4mm scale as the clips that would be needed to hold flat bottomed rail in place would be absolutely miniscule and extremely fragile (in 4mm scale anyway).

With current technology, you can forget about doing Pandrol.

[Mayner]

An important factor to consider is that Templot uses different track gauges for "Irish 5'3" depending on whether you model to EMGS or S4/P4 dimensions.

Specifying a gauge of 20.2 for EM(I) and 21mm  for S4 (I)

Martins rationale for using a narrower than prototypical track gauge for EM(I) may have been based on providing adequate running clearances for wider than scale wheels in loco and stock bodies in a similar manner to the choice of 18 and later 18.2mm rather than the more accurate 18.83 to model the British Standard gauge during the 1940/50s or possibly Martin simply adding 2mm to EMGS dimensions in a similar manner to Martins subtraction of 2mm from EMGS in advocating  16.2 mm gauge in order to achieve improved running than 16.5  for OO gauge rtr models.

Edited April 11 by Mayner

[David Holman]

For Fintonagh's  three foot, 21mm track gauge, I used Templot's Irish EM point templates, but ran them through the photocopier to get 21mm gauge, three foot radius.

 I used Branchlines 4mm scale wagon wheels on 2mm brass axles without problems, though do need to keep an eye on back to backs.

 Now using Slater's 7mm scale, three foot narrow gauge wheels without problems and likewise Gibson 4mm scale drivers.

 I think the important thing is the flangeways, which are 1mm and (fingers crossed) all seems ok with this mongrel approach!

[murphaph]

You don't have to use the presets in templot AFAIK. You can customise the gauge and various clearances to whatever you want.

[Angus]

I've used templot for all my 2mm finescale track including the Irish 10.5mm guage. 

It needs a little bit of dedication to learn but is a very powerful tool. 

As has been noted above loads of presets that cover some quite esoteric scales and guage and the possibility to set your own. 

You can also make up track panels that match the prototypes practice. I don't do this in 2mm but do with my 7mm scale Modelling as its much more noticeable. 

 

[Andy Cundick]

For what its worth i used a 3ft steel rule (used on its side for transition curves) and a pencil,its worked fine for Valencia Arigna and Courtmacsherry.Once you've got one line down the other has to follow.simples.Andy.

[Bob49]

I've done some wagons in 7mm scale 36.75mm gauge does anyone think there would be a demand if I turned them out in 4mm on 21mm gauge? In the way they are designed they wouldn't be possible to make them compatible with 16.5mm gauge.

[David Holman]

7mm scale, broad gauge wagons? Tell us more.

[Bob49]

GNR(I) 4plk and 6plk and DN&GR 2plk. 3d printed bodies with sprung brass axle guards, buffers and 3link couplings. The 4mm ones would be to the same spec.

Marc 

[Patrick Davey]

Just catching up on all the photos on this thread, wow, simply wow.....those GNR locos are something else!

[Mol_PMB]

I know this is an old thread but it seems the relevant place.

As someone just re-starting in Irish modelling in 4mm scale, I'm pondering the gauge question. When I last modelled the Irish broad gauge about 30 years ago, I used EM gauge (18.2mm) as a compromise. At that time I was in my teens and to be honest my skills weren't up to it and I never got it working reliably - but that was a long time ago! My skills have improved and the Irish model market has moved on a lot since the days of Q kits and the early MIR offerings. 

I'm now revisiting the Irish scene (alongside other railway modelling interests in different scales/countries). I'm in that position where I have the opportunity to choose a track gauge again. In the thread above, lots of people said they would choose 21mm if they were starting again, but they were too invested in 16.5mm to change at a later stage.

My initial thought was to stick with 16.5mm, it's the easy option, and it would allow me to run trains on several friends' layouts (I don't have a 16.5mm gauge layout myself, although I do have a 22.2mm gauge layout in an entirely different scale). But, the gauge compromise is a big one. Even 30 years ago in my teens it bothered me enough to go to EM as a half-way house. If I go to 21mm then I also need to build a dedicated Irish layout, which is a big step up in the commitment to Ireland, but not necessarily a bad thing. It might only be a small layout (e.g. Inglenook shunting yard) though. There's also the issue that there seem to be several different 21mm gauge 'standards' with regard to flangeways, BTB etc. At present, I would at least like to ensure that my models are "21mm ready" even if they are initially 16.5mm gauge. 

Most of this thread was written some years ago, and the market has moved a fair way since then. Can I buy 21mm gauge wheelsets to go in IRM or MM models? What other changes would be required? Do IRM broad gauge B4 bogies fit MM Cravens coaches, and is regauging the IRM bogies as simple as moving the wheels on the axles or is it more involved than that? Do the wagon kits (SSM, Provincial Models etc) enable 21mm gauge? I get the impression that some models are easier to convert than others, and some of the 4-wheel vehicles may be more challenging than the bogie wagons. I should say that I'm firmly in the diesel era, mid 70s to late 80s.

Sorry for all the questions, I don't necessarily need detailed answers to all of them but a steer in the right direction would be very helpful.

Cheers,

Mol

[murphaph]

23 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Can I buy 21mm gauge wheelsets to go in IRM or MM models? What other changes would be required? Do IRM broad gauge B4 bogies fit MM Cravens coaches, and is regauging the IRM bogies as simple as moving the wheels on the axles or is it more involved than that? Do the wagon kits (SSM, Provincial Models etc) enable 21mm gauge?

You cannot currently buy 21mm wheelsets for either IRM or MM locos as far as I know, certainly not from the manufacturers as you can with Accurascale locos. You would need to either extend the axles with bushes or replace them entirely.

The IRM bogies are not a plug and play replacement for the Cravens. At least some modification is required. The original bogies can of course be cut in half and a spacer installed to widen them.

The IRM stock that is 21mm ready is trivial to regauge. Just use a wheel puller to ease the wheels out on the axles and get a back to back gauge to push them back in to.

I believe at least some, maybe all of the SSM kits can be made in 21mm. The Provincial Wagons RTR models that I have are not really regaugable as they are based on GB models. I don't know if the kits are but @leslie10646 can answer that definitively for sure