J-Mo's Workbench

[Galteemore]

Norman Johnston’s book has an outline sketch on page 100. Also worth checking if the GN loco drawings published by the IRRS include them….https://irrs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Digital-Drawings-List-22-UK.pdf

Edited May 19, 2022 by Galteemore

[J-Mo Arts]

I've now got a plan of action for my Irish stock. 

GNR(I) QGT 0-6-2T

GNR(I) SG 0-6-0

GNR(I) freelance 4-4-0

BCDR 4-4-2T

I'll work on these as and when I have the motivation, but as I'm sure is obvious I tend to bounce between projects and pick up yet more as I go along. Speaking of which... 

I managed to scratch an itch last week. I've been interested in early railways, and having recently done some research into the first railways and early industrialisation in Germany I bought a Trix 'Der Adler' set:

This consists of a free-wheeling model of Der Adler, the first steam locomotive in Germany and a fixed rake of carriages, the first of which being motorised.

I quickly realised that this means I can make many more pioneering locomotives to use behind some period stock, so I set to work making a Sharp 2-2-2WT. About halfway through I realised that some parts of the drawing didn't quite make sense and having a chat with @Killian Keane he told me that it was a freelance locomotive photoshopped by a friend.

I'm pleased with my progress so far, and I'll design a second motorised coach so that I can run more than one train at the same time. If I keep enjoying this as much as I am I'll have to make a small layout on which to run purely pre-1870 stock. 

[David Holman]

Interesting!

Have always got a lot of satisfaction from pursuing alternative paths. Guess it boils down to enjoying doing something different - be that lesser known railways or even freelance stuff. Essentially very much at the heart of modelling Irish railways in the steam era.

 A model of 'Lion' and its Titfield Thunderbolt train is supposed to by out soon, though suspect the price will put off any thoughts of conversion, at least to begin with.

 Years ago, ace modeller Mike Sharman built a substantial collection of early Victorian trains and there is growing commercial support for stuff from early railways, so well worth pursuing!

[Galteemore]

Excellent. A lot going for this era, too - short trains and huge variety. Also scope for lots of interesting research….

[J-Mo Arts]

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

Interesting!

Have always got a lot of satisfaction from pursuing alternative paths. Guess it boils down to enjoying doing something different - be that lesser known railways or even freelance stuff. Essentially very much at the heart of modelling Irish railways in the steam era.

 A model of 'Lion' and its Titfield Thunderbolt train is supposed to by out soon, though suspect the price will put off any thoughts of conversion, at least to begin with.

 Years ago, ace modeller Mike Sharman built a substantial collection of early Victorian trains and there is growing commercial support for stuff from early railways, so well worth pursuing!

Many thanks David. I'm looking forward to the Lion model, I did want to try to change the firebox from the one added in the 1930s, though it was reboilered in 1902 so what was there before is probably 'wrong' too, though there's nobody around to tell me what it really looked like! 

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Excellent. A lot going for this era, too - short trains and huge variety. Also scope for lots of interesting research... 

Thanks Galteemore, indeed! All very attractive prospects. I did really enjoy doing my German railway research. That being said, many aspects of the railways went undocumented. There are few details, for example, about Lion and sister loco Tiger as the L&M mustn't have found it a good use of time to document a pair of luggage (goods) locomotives initially used for banking. To this end I can probably sneak in the freelance 2-2-2WT as one of the unknown locomotives of the era. I'm thinking of naming it Pegasus or Germania. 

 

I also found a video of Mike Sharman's layout:

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by J-Mo Arts

[Georgeconna]

Wow never seen that vid before, Love the Traverser

 

[J-Mo Arts]

Brilliant, isn't it! 

[Galteemore]

Must be something about the RAF and railway modelling. Mike  Sharman was an ex RAF engineer (on Hercules C130s). David Jenkinson, the carriage guru, was an RAF admin officer, and Geoff Holt (another loco expert with numerous Wild Swan books out) was also RAF. John Charman, seminal figure in post war OO modelling, was an RAF pilot. To get vaguely back on your thread, J-Mo, I suspect that all were inspired by engineering excellence and innovation, so I think they’d be intrigued by what you are up to!!

Edited May 24, 2022 by Galteemore

[Broithe]

10 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Must be something about the RAF and railway modelling. Mike  Sharman was an ex RAF engineer (on Hercules C130s). David Jenkinson, the carriage guru, was an RAF admin officer, and Geoff Holt (another loco expert with numerous Wild Swan books out) was also RAF. 

I grew up in an RAF itinerant manner. There were pluses and minuses.

Moving pretty much every year made having a half-decent layout a bit impractical - and, even if you did make something very portable, you might often go away for a few years, leaving most stuff 'in storage'. This could be quite entertaining, though, when uncovering stuff you had completely forgotten about - on one famous occasion, we opened a crate to find, amongst other things, a Dundee cake that had been accidentally packed in the rush, three years before...

However, if you were on a station where there was a 'sir' with any sort of interest in a subject, then all sort of facilities could 'become available', from empty buildings to workshop facilities and transport.

The amount of moving about eased off a lot after the early 70s and people were often in a semi-permanent situation after that time, so that may have helped.

[J-Mo Arts]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

Must be something about the RAF and railway modelling. Mike  Sharman was an ex RAF engineer (on Hercules C130s). David Jenkinson, the carriage guru, was an RAF admin officer, and Geoff Holt (another loco expert with numerous Wild Swan books out) was also RAF. John Charman, seminal figure in post war OO modelling, was an RAF pilot. To get vaguely back on your thread, J-Mo, I suspect that all were inspired by engineering excellence and innovation, so I think they’d be intrigued by what you are up to!!

There's something about that era of railway modelling which I find charming- it may be the busy atmosphere or something. A bit like how I like the perpetually summer European layouts, where everything is clean and sunny and the grass is bright green. Somehow these concepts translate poorly onto British layouts, where weathering and realism are desirable. 

Vs

 

[Galteemore]

I think you are right. I also think consistency is the key. Those early layouts basically all came from the same pair of hands making everything. On Continental layouts, almost everything also comes out of a box or high quality kits. Recent British layouts can easily be a pastiche of high quality models with fairly basic structures and scenery. What the weathering does in this instance is blur the edges of this juxtaposition so it doesn’t jar.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Galteemore

[Killian Keane]

19 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

I've now got a plan of action for my Irish stock. 

GNR(I) QGT 0-6-2T

GNR(I) SG 0-6-0

GNR(I) freelance 4-4-0

BCDR 4-4-2T

I'll work on these as and when I have the motivation, but as I'm sure is obvious I tend to bounce between projects and pick up yet more as I go along. Speaking of which... 

I managed to scratch an itch last week. I've been interested in early railways, and having recently done some research into the first railways and early industrialisation in Germany I bought a Trix 'Der Adler' set:

This consists of a free-wheeling model of Der Adler, the first steam locomotive in Germany and a fixed rake of carriages, the first of which being motorised.

I quickly realised that this means I can make many more pioneering locomotives to use behind some period stock, so I set to work making a Sharp 2-2-2WT. About halfway through I realised that some parts of the drawing didn't quite make sense and having a chat with @Killian Keane he told me that it was a freelance locomotive photoshopped by a friend.

I'm pleased with my progress so far, and I'll design a second motorised coach so that I can run more than one train at the same time. If I keep enjoying this as much as I am I'll have to make a small layout on which to run purely pre-1870 stock. 

Here is my own Sharp object, a standard goods engine, its an early effort on my part so it will need largely replacing/redoing, but the tender CAD is recent, albeit unfinished between other projects

In terms of prototype they were fairly universal, Clements, McMahon and O Rourke, Locomotives of the GS&WR page 210 show one, much the same dimensions as my own, as having been owned by the Limerick and Ennis Rly, later to become WLWR 27

[J-Mo Arts]

A bit more progress tonight and some wheels drawn in to 'finish' the loco. In reality I need to draw the chassis as a separate component in due course.

[Mayner]

10 hours ago, Galteemore said:

I think you are right. I also think consistency is the key. Those early layouts basically all came from the same pair of hands making everything. On Continental layouts, almost everything also comes out of a box or high quality kits. Recent British layouts can easily be a pastiche of high quality models with fairly basic structures and scenery. What the weathering does in this instance is blur the edges of this juxtaposition so it doesn’t jar.

My impression is the shiny out of the box look of some Continental especially Germanic layouts is not unrealistic, some of the stock looks straight out of the box.

National pride and the drier Continental Climate helps

 

[David Holman]

Always thought that Swiss and Austrian layouts were very 'train set' in concept, with far too much track. Then I went there and realised that it can actually be like that in places!

 There has been a school of thought that we tend to model what we saw in our formative years - a nostalgia kick I guess. Still there, but I sense a growing urge to do something different. After all a loop and two sidings is not the same if it depicts a much earlier era, or a light railway, industrial scene, etc.

 The major manufacturers are starting to feed this, to some extent, but unless you build your own stuff, you are still very much limited by what they provide.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Always thought that Swiss and Austrian layouts were very 'train set' in concept, with far too much track. Then I went there and realised that it can actually be like that in places!

 There has been a school of thought that we tend to model what we saw in our formative years - a nostalgia kick I guess. Still there, but I sense a growing urge to do something different. After all a loop and two sidings is not the same if it depicts a much earlier era, or a light railway, industrial scene, etc.

 The major manufacturers are starting to feed this, to some extent, but unless you build your own stuff, you are still very much limited by what they provide.

Agree. One can see this with the geometric influence on some layouts constrained by train set track packs and set track products. Rectangular loop layouts with 1st radius short points. Such really constrains the ability to model prototypical realism. However its probably where most of us started, a hornby transit, buying an few track packs to add, growing the train set layout under the bed or on the bedroom floor, suited manufacturers back then as the demand for track accessory packs was high, but nowadays, its grown up kids reconstructing childhood nostalgia, and a great way to keep grand children away from iPads and smartphones for entertainment. Constructing track layouts from setrack packs was akin to building things with Meccano, thought resourcefulness, basic engineering skills and let imagination loose.  Happy days they were. I remember the beano and dandy hardback annuals were welcome Christmas presents as they made perfect height platforms.

[J-Mo Arts]

Getting things slightly 'back on track', I don't think I'll name the loco Pegasus as there is a real Pegasus that I'd like to do (that'll be why the name seemed 'right'!)

One of the first locomotives built in Germany, in 1839 for the Leipzig-Dresden Railway. She seems to be very similar to a Stephenson Patentee, so I may just measure up Adler and change superficial details. I can't find a loco called Germania so that'll be the name of the 2-2-2WT, unless anybody has any other suggestions?

[GSR 800]

On 24/5/2022 at 10:36 AM, J-Mo Arts said:

Many thanks David. I'm looking forward to the Lion model, I did want to try to change the firebox from the one added in the 1930s, though it was reboilered in 1902 so what was there before is probably 'wrong' too, though there's nobody around to tell me what it really looked like! 

Thanks Galteemore, indeed! All very attractive prospects. I did really enjoy doing my German railway research. That being said, many aspects of the railways went undocumented. There are few details, for example, about Lion and sister loco Tiger as the L&M mustn't have found it a good use of time to document a pair of luggage (goods) locomotives initially used for banking. To this end I can probably sneak in the freelance 2-2-2WT as one of the unknown locomotives of the era. I'm thinking of naming it Pegasus or Germania. 

 

I also found a video of Mike Sharman's layout:

 

Excellent video, some of those locomotives may be better known as contraptions.

Don't think I've ever seen mid victorian railways modelled to such an extent.

[David Holman]

1 hour ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Getting things slightly 'back on track', I don't think I'll name the loco Pegasus as there is a real Pegasus that I'd like to do (that'll be why the name seemed 'right'!)

One of the first locomotives built in Germany, in 1839 for the Leipzig-Dresden Railway. She seems to be very similar to a Stephenson Patentee, so I may just measure up Adler and change superficial details. I can't find a loco called Germania so that'll be the name of the 2-2-2WT, unless anybody has any other suggestions?

Depends whether is for an Irish project or elsewhere, I suppose. Early loco names often focused on speed and strength, or something from mythology, so for Ireland check out some of those early kings and chieftains. Another oft used option was to name locos after directors and their families, or indeed loco landmarks, towns etc. 

 Pretty much anything goes therefore as long as it is not something with a modern spelling!

[Northroader]

Linking in Sharps singles and Continental modelling, there was a Dutch artist called Anton Pieck, who had a very enjoyable dated “folksy” style, with plenty going on, in nice architectural settings, and very good for a “cameo” setting, complete with a level crossing and keeper. Funnily enough none of the old Dutch railways had one of the early Sharps as shown here:

[minister_for_hardship]

6 hours ago, David Holman said:

Depends whether is for an Irish project or elsewhere, I suppose. Early loco names often focused on speed and strength, or something from mythology, so for Ireland check out some of those early kings and chieftains. Another oft used option was to name locos after directors and their families, or indeed loco landmarks, towns etc. 

 Pretty much anything goes therefore as long as it is not something with a modern spelling!

Very, very few named after native kings or chieftains, just two were named after Brian Boru (W&LR and Giant's Causeway)

Most named after figures from Greek or Roman classics and as you say placenames, directors their families and their homes. Rivers, mountains, animals/birds and saints featured. 

[J-Mo Arts]

Which do we prefer? 

Either way I'll be adding false frames to hide the gaps

Edited May 27, 2022 by J-Mo Arts

[Galteemore]

That’s very nice. I always liked the GSR 4-4-0s with outside axleboxes, but I think the top one keeps more of the grace of an original early Irish 4-4-0.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Which do we prefer? 

Either way I'll be adding false frames to hide the gaps

You'd need to remove the side tanks on the loco too...........?

[Galteemore]

I think they actually recall the GSW extended cab sheets quite nicely ….

 

[J-Mo Arts]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

You'd need to remove the side tanks on the loco too...........?

As Galteemore says, I think they are 'close enough' to the GSW cabs

[Mayner]

The Adams radial conversion looks closer to the Kerry Bogie with its smaller driving wheels and less squiggly running board than the GSWR Express passenger 4-4-0s.

Depends on how much carving/modification your prepared to carry out to the loco body, popular with crews originally had raised roundtopped boilers, re-built with belpair boilers by the GSR

class withdrawn during early 1950s

 

 

[David Holman]

Love the Kerry Bogie, such a well balanced design, especially in original condition. Almost as pretty as an Achill Bogie, in fact - though lacking that gorgeous paint scheme.

[David Holman]

16 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Which do we prefer? 

Either way I'll be adding false frames to hide the gaps

Like the first one. It makes for an interesting hybrid, with clear Irish elements. The small 'side tanks' on the Adam's Radials were more like square splashers and a smaller feature appeared on some 101/J15s, so only need cutting down a bit. Removing the outside cylinders seems to have worked, while 5'7" drivers are about right for a Kerry Bogie.

 Add a pair of stove type smokebox doors and you've suddenly got a more than plausible new Irish 4-4-0 class! Purists may not like it, but it certainly looks the part to me.

[J-Mo Arts]

3 hours ago, Mayner said:

The Adams radial conversion looks closer to the Kerry Bogie with its smaller driving wheels and less squiggly running board than the GSWR Express passenger 4-4-0s.

Depends on how much carving/modification your prepared to carry out to the loco body, popular with crews originally had raised roundtopped boilers, re-built with belpair boilers by the GSR

class withdrawn during early 1950s

 

 

Hmmm... I could potentially 3d print a firebox to slot over the boiler, and a new smokebox door... What was the livery for these before GSWR grey? 

35 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Like the first one. It makes for an interesting hybrid, with clear Irish elements. The small 'side tanks' on the Adam's Radials were more like square splashers and a smaller feature appeared on some 101/J15s, so only need cutting down a bit. Removing the outside cylinders seems to have worked, while 5'7" drivers are about right for a Kerry Bogie.

 Add a pair of stove type smokebox doors and you've suddenly got a more than plausible new Irish 4-4-0 class! Purists may not like it, but it certainly looks the part to me.

Thanks David, I'll definitely be doing the new smokebox, though cutting down the tanks is a tad daunting-they are cast metal and the boiler is cut-out where they go, so I could end up with something very messy. That being said, if I did the new firebox on the 3d printer that may hide any of the boiler which is cut away for the tanks

 

[Galteemore]

Dark lined green. Later black with red/white/red lining. Vermilion to be precise in terms of the red! Some schools of thought suggest that the lining was simply red. Holding back the years ? This 2-4-0 model is believed to be a good likeness of the green. David Holman, Paul Greene, and others have modelled the black livery. Paul also has a J15 in green.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

18 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

As Galteemore says, I think they are 'close enough' to the GSW cabs

The cabs, yes indeed - but the side tanks?

Either way, an ingenious conversion!

The livery for the GSWR was lined dark olive green as shown above until about 1902, after which black lined in red and white became the norm. The all-over dark grey first appeared about 1915, possibly following the extensive re-boilering programme at that time. 

During the currency of the dark green, lining was pale green, red and black up to about 1880 or so, with same green lined in black and cream later.

Frames were mid-brown during the green livery.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by jhb171achill

[J-Mo Arts]

Apologies- not Irish but some quick weathering practise

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by J-Mo Arts

[David Holman]

Am sure there were industrials like this around Ireland.

[Galteemore]

Allman’s in Bandon had one a little like it, an E class later absorbed by the GSR. @jhb171achillposted an image in January 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Galteemore