British locos and stock that can be disguised as Irish

[skinner75]

'New' trains for Iran some years ago, or a 'look what we are doing for the country' type thing, where they just used a shot of our very own 181!

[Ironroad]

Maybe this will help

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/iran-on-track-with-help-of-irish-rail/26542633.html

[LNERW1]

26 minutes ago, Broithe said:

It's from back when Mahmoud Ahmedinajad accidentally ticked the next box under 'Iran' when he posted his application to be President.

Ohhhhhh... ok

[LNERW1]

On 12/2/2024 at 11:35 AM, LNERW1 said:

This is either going to be met with begrudging agreement or crucifixion, but could a class 67/68 be repainted to a rough approximation of a 201?

Edit: I meant 65 or 67, not 68. The 68s are those weird looking ones with the melted-looking front end operated by DRS and TPE.

[David Holman]

On 12/2/2024 at 3:09 PM, Moxy said:

 

Yes, Angel Trains have sold some former British HST's to Mexico.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/more-british-high-speed-trains-head-to-mexico/

Some have also gone to Nigeria.

[Mayner]

One might have been are the Blue Pullman trains.

CIE are supposed to have seriously considered buying and re-gauging the Blue Pullmans during the late 60s/early 70s. 

[BSGSV]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

One might have been are the Blue Pullman trains.

CIE are supposed to have seriously considered buying and re-gauging the Blue Pullmans during the late 60s/early 70s. 

That's a new one on me, but of a piece with other schemes that seem to have been floated in the mid-1970's. Aside from Blue Pullmans, CIE looked at re-engining the Sulzers, and I was also told by someone who would know that they looked at buying redundant Westerns from BR. I'm sure the new 071's they did go for would have seemed quite pricy given the times, but haven't they got their money's worth out of them since!

[LNERW1]

Get the cross ready lads- heavily bodged+shortened BR Class 58 as an 071? (he says while writing up his will)

You know what, just to avoid extreme violence, I’m going to make that work.

[jhb171achill]

On 14/2/2024 at 1:46 PM, BSGSV said:

That's a new one on me, but of a piece with other schemes that seem to have been floated in the mid-1970's. Aside from Blue Pullmans, CIE looked at re-engining the Sulzers, and I was also told by someone who would know that they looked at buying redundant Westerns from BR. I'm sure the new 071's they did go for would have seemed quite pricy given the times, but haven't they got their money's worth out of them since!

Yes, the one about re-engineing the B101s was very much true. As you say, they got superb use out of the 071s - but imagine if 071-type engines had gone into the Sulzers - would they still be seen in Ballina at the front of a train of containers?

[Horsetan]

9 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, the one about re-engineing the B101s was very much true. As you say, they got superb use out of the 071s - but imagine if 071-type engines had gone into the Sulzers - would they still be seen in Ballina at the front of a train of containers?

They might only have lasted up until the 1990s before being withdrawn, just as the As and Cs were at that time.

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

They might only have lasted up until the 1990s before being withdrawn, just as the As and Cs were at that time.

Indeed - which begs the question what then - more 201s, probably.............. which would simply mean that today that whole fleet would be in use, and Ireland would have but a solitary class of locomotive. Things are unvaried enough as it is!, so thank gawd for 071s (never thought I'd say that about modern locos...!)

[LNERW1]

As nobody seems to be particularly invested in the tangent, let me just bring the conversation back to its initial focus as well as just bringing it back up to the surface so it’s not forgotten.

[Flying Snail]

'Modelling Irish Railways' by Stephen Johnson and Alan O'Rourke is a great starting point for those interested in modifying British outline models to represent Irish stock.

It's from 2004, so a bit dated now but back then there was practically no Irish RTR  -  the Irish scene was all about scratch building, kits and modifying other models. They give a list of convertible OO locos and an extensive list of carriage conversions too.

Edited June 11 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

In the 1940s, when a small Austrian man with a narrow moustache, of non-"Aryan" physique, decide to drop bombs on Belfast, the carriage sidings of the NCC were obliterated, and dozens of coaches and wagons were reduced to splinters and atoms.

As a result, the (parent) LMS in Brexitstan shipped in a lot of old 1920s wooden-bodied coaches, and some wagons - both, obviously, of standard LMS / Midland Rly designs. Thus, straight repaints of several types of LMS coaches will instantly fit on an NCC / UTA / very early NIR layout as loco-hauled stock. Wagons likewise; in Tony McGartland's (truly excellent) book on the railway in Omagh, a standard LMS goods van is shown in Omagh - having deeply penetrated GNR "Derry Road" land, well away from the NCC! (Left hand side, partially seen, p67). Another is seen in the same book of standard (English) Midland design, bottom of page 91, left. A similar vehicle again in the middle of a rake, p99.

The Bachmann "CIE" set some years ago, with a "Woolwich" and three coaches in 1945-55 CIE lined dark green, are in fact LMS types. While they do not remotely resemble anything that ever ran on CIE (and more than almost all British wagons do), they are perfect for some of the types used on the NCC / UTA, with a handful lasting a few years into NIR days, even appearing behind a Hunslet on a handful of Portrush excusrions.

Very often, if there's a mix of scale irish coach models (e.g. SSM kits) on a layout, they stand out amongst repainted British stuff, as the latter is noticeably narrower. It looks odd, but there's a prototype for everything; in reality this was the case.

Look at how narrow the RPSI's BR van looks beside its Cravens. It was even more so in the north 1945-70, in the circumstances mentioned above.

The coaching stock of the NCC in its last few years, and the UTA's ex-NCC section throughout the existence of the UTA, and the last loco-hauled trains of NIR until the early 1970s, had a mixture of the following:

1.   Belfast built coaches to LMS NCC design

2.  The last few BNCR stock, recognisable by their flat sides

3.  British-built stock, brought over and re-gauged in the 1940s to replace bomb-damaged stock, to standard LMS desings - but noticeably narrower!

After 1958, add to this ex-GNR stock. And - the GNR had a very small amount of coaches that were second hand ex-British stuff too - LNWR, I think from memory.

The point here, though, in relation to British stuff which is usable here, is that a number of LMS designs can be used as NCC stock in the latter yerars of this company; repaint plain maroon (unlikely to have had lining, as secondary stock), or get LMS liveried ones and remove LMS crest and "LMS" lettering. For UTA, plain green, centre line of beige (not yellow) edged in red, and UTA crest; and a handful made it into NIR plain maroon, grey roof, black ends, with a 3" pale grey waistline. Mix and match with Worsely or SSM kits and Robert is a sibling to one of your parents.

Now, where's this IRM RTR Jeep?

[Horsetan]

19 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

In the 1940s, when a small Austrian man with a narrow moustache, of non-"Aryan" physique....

Y'know, going off-topic here, I've often thought that historians covering the whole 1933-1945 thing might have missed a subtlety.

In 1938, we all learnt that Anschluss generally meant Germany merging with and absorbing Austria. Given the way that the small Austrian fella had climbed to power over the German population, I've long wondered if Anschluss was actually Austria cementing its power over Germany, especially when you consider that Austrians have tended to have that streak of nastiness that even Germans find unsettling.

[Broithe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Y'know, going off-topic here, I've often thought that historians covering the whole 1933-1945 thing might have missed a subtlety.

In 1938, we all learnt that Anschluss generally meant Germany merging with and absorbing Austria. Given the way that the small Austrian fella had climbed to power over the German population, I've long wondered if Anschluss was actually Austria cementing its power over Germany, especially when you consider that Austrians have tended to have that streak of nastiness that even Germans find unsettling.

Must say I’ve always seen the Austrians in a positive light - but like many a neighbour, they and the Germans don’t always have a high opinion of each other….

[LNERW1]

On 13/6/2024 at 2:21 PM, jhb171achill said:

In the 1940s, when a small Austrian man with a narrow moustache, of non-"Aryan" physique, decide to drop bombs on Belfast, the carriage sidings of the NCC were obliterated, and dozens of coaches and wagons were reduced to splinters and atoms.

As a result, the (parent) LMS in Brexitstan shipped in a lot of old 1920s wooden-bodied coaches, and some wagons - both, obviously, of standard LMS / Midland Rly designs. Thus, straight repaints of several types of LMS coaches will instantly fit on an NCC / UTA / very early NIR layout as loco-hauled stock. Wagons likewise; in Tony McGartland's (truly excellent) book on the railway in Omagh, a standard LMS goods van is shown in Omagh - having deeply penetrated GNR "Derry Road" land, well away from the NCC! (Left hand side, partially seen, p67). Another is seen in the same book of standard (English) Midland design, bottom of page 91, left. A similar vehicle again in the middle of a rake, p99.

The Bachmann "CIE" set some years ago, with a "Woolwich" and three coaches in 1945-55 CIE lined dark green, are in fact LMS types. While they do not remotely resemble anything that ever ran on CIE (and more than almost all British wagons do), they are perfect for some of the types used on the NCC / UTA, with a handful lasting a few years into NIR days, even appearing behind a Hunslet on a handful of Portrush excusrions.

Very often, if there's a mix of scale irish coach models (e.g. SSM kits) on a layout, they stand out amongst repainted British stuff, as the latter is noticeably narrower. It looks odd, but there's a prototype for everything; in reality this was the case.

Look at how narrow the RPSI's BR van looks beside its Cravens. It was even more so in the north 1945-70, in the circumstances mentioned above.

The coaching stock of the NCC in its last few years, and the UTA's ex-NCC section throughout the existence of the UTA, and the last loco-hauled trains of NIR until the early 1970s, had a mixture of the following:

1.   Belfast built coaches to LMS NCC design

2.  The last few BNCR stock, recognisable by their flat sides

3.  British-built stock, brought over and re-gauged in the 1940s to replace bomb-damaged stock, to standard LMS desings - but noticeably narrower!

After 1958, add to this ex-GNR stock. And - the GNR had a very small amount of coaches that were second hand ex-British stuff too - LNWR, I think from memory.

The point here, though, in relation to British stuff which is usable here, is that a number of LMS designs can be used as NCC stock in the latter yerars of this company; repaint plain maroon (unlikely to have had lining, as secondary stock), or get LMS liveried ones and remove LMS crest and "LMS" lettering. For UTA, plain green, centre line of beige (not yellow) edged in red, and UTA crest; and a handful made it into NIR plain maroon, grey roof, black ends, with a 3" pale grey waistline. Mix and match with Worsely or SSM kits and Robert is a sibling to one of your parents.

Now, where's this IRM RTR Jeep?

JHB, you are an encyclopaedia. Thank you.

[LNERW1]

Ok, lads, here's a new one that I definitely didn't steal from the thread on Casino Model Railway Museum, a Class 165 'Turbo' as a 29000. Doesn't look perfect, but it works. IMO a 170 might work better though. This obviously doesn't take into account carriage lengths, so I'll leave that to the smart people on here.

[LNERW1]

@gibbo675 giving us some brilliant examples of British to Irish conversions, has inspired me to try follow up on the 071 from a 58. Read somewhere else that Hornby considered this, but I’m not quite sure on that. I’ll look for a cheap 58 first, then a 3D-printed end.

Edit: will be starting a workbench topic for this and other things, also side-profile photos of 071s would be nice, thanks.

[gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

As LNERW1 has quoted me here some photographs of what I've been cutting and shutting so far, none of it finished let alone painted as yet. Full descriptions in my threads which can be found by looking up my content.

GNRI V class with a GNRI brake first and a composite. The locomotive is a converted Hornby LMS compound with the boiler from a Hornby 5XP Patriot and an altered tender chassis with a scratch built tender tank. The coaches are Hornby LMS Stanier coaches, the composite is slightly modified and the brake is a cut and shut from a brake third and a composite.

NCC W class from a Hornby Fowler class 4 tank with a Bachmann Fowler tender chassis and the tender tank from a Hornby LMS class 4 Compound.

NCC WT class from a Hornby Fowler class 4 tank.

Any questions ask away either here on the appropriate thread.

Gibbo.

[MOGUL]

Hornby Freightliner wagons can be kit bashed into 62ft 9in timber wagons by fitting ends and stanchions as pictured..

With floors only they could also pass for 62ft 9 flat wagons in PWd service.

Ignore the little hand and Lego, trying to keep a toddler occupied!

Edited July 7 by MOGUL

[spudfan]

2 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

@gibbo675 giving us some brilliant examples of British to Irish conversions, has inspired me to try follow up on the 071 from a 58. Read somewhere else that Hornby considered this, but I’m not quite sure on that. I’ll look for a cheap 58 first, then a 3D-printed end.

Edit: will be starting a workbench topic for this and other things, also side-profile photos of 071s would be nice, thanks.

I put up a post elsewhere regarding this. It was not Hornby's idea. They were approached with the idea. Sorry, messed up with the link, but it is in the topic on Mark's Models Jinty

 

Edited July 7 by spudfan

[DJ Dangerous]

21 minutes ago, gibbo675 said:

NCC WT class from a Hornby Fowler class 4 tank.

 

Would that be a Fowler4F?

Not too common here on the forum lately.

 

8 minutes ago, MOGUL said:

Ignore the little hand and Lego, trying to keep a toddler occupied!

 

That's IRM, keeping fifty-plus-year-old toddlers occupied since 2018!

[gibbo675]

3 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

@gibbo675 giving us some brilliant examples of British to Irish conversions, has inspired me to try follow up on the 071 from a 58. Read somewhere else that Hornby considered this, but I’m not quite sure on that. I’ll look for a cheap 58 first, then a 3D-printed end.

Edit: will be starting a workbench topic for this and other things, also side-profile photos of 071s would be nice, thanks.

Hi Folks,

Will these be of any use ?

Scratch building bodies for diesels isn't anything like as difficult as you might think. Previously for OO gauge I've used .060" plasticard and around the cabs and roof lines layer up and reinforce corners and then file and sand back to shape. Radiator grilles can be made by scribing plasticard with variously, hack saw, junior hack saw or razor saw blades depending upon sizes required, different TPI's are suitable.

If I were to build a 071 I think from having a quick look then a class 58 body shell is a good start and I would look to see if there was an American HO chassis to get as near to correct bogies as possible although you could make plasticard overlays and stick them on with cyanacrylate glue to the Hornby bogies. I have scratch built and kit bashed all sorts of unavailable British stuff for myself, in some cases built stuff that is available because its more fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are some of my cut and shut specials, all British but the concept is the same.

Scratch built bogies for NBL class 84.

My second class 84 catching up the first one I built, the body shells are Trix class 81 mouldings.

Part built RSH DC electric shunters built for Kearsley Power station near Manchester next to an N gauge built for a friend of mine.

All four of Kearsley's fleet

N gauge APT-E, once again for my lucky friend with a Leyland bus bodied coach made from Hornby class 142 body shells and a Mk1 undeframe.

The N gauge APT-E on my friends layout next his own prototype HST.

Imagination fellas, the single most powerful force you all posses.

Gibbo.

 

English electric class 83

27 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Would that be a Fowler4F?

Not too common here on the forum lately.

 

 

That's IRM, keeping fifty-plus-year-old toddlers occupied since 2018!

Hi DJ,

No, it is the LMS fowler class 4P 2-6-4 tank, LMS numbers series 2300-2424, (for BR add 40000).

Gibbo.

Edited July 7 by gibbo675
Missed a caption for photgraph

[gibbo675]

3 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

@gibbo675 giving us some brilliant examples of British to Irish conversions, has inspired me to try follow up on the 071 from a 58. Read somewhere else that Hornby considered this, but I’m not quite sure on that. I’ll look for a cheap 58 first, then a 3D-printed end.

Edit: will be starting a workbench topic for this and other things, also side-profile photos of 071s would be nice, thanks.

Hi LNERW1,

I've had a look at the drawings that I have posted below and both my own Hornby class 58 and the class 58 drawing in the book "British Rail Main Line Diesel Locomotives" and it seems that the 071's scales in at 18mm longer over buffers and 16mm longer over the bogie centres. The wheel base of the bogies is near enough not to notice.

I would suggest that the underframe could be rebuilt with plasticard either completely or simply lengthened, the main part of the body would be mostly sanded down and new doors made using .010" plasticard overlaid, the cooling fans of the cooler group cut out and extended and scratch built cabs.

If building a cab, build it solid and cut the windows secondarily, that way it will be easier to build to the correct shape and retain is strength better than trying to build the windows in initially.

Gibbo.

[LNERW1]

Thanks. What I was planning on doing was entirely removing the cab, and sanding down the frame to the correct length. If I need to remove a central section of the body I can do that too. I plan on building the cab out of plasticard, not decided on bufferbeam details but I'm sure I can find suitable detailing somewhere. I will probably use an 80s or 90s tooling, and with a 60ft long diesel you can probably count on the length being underscale to work on trainset curves.

[irishmail]

Like the class 83 and 84 locos.  

[NorthWallDocker]

On 30/1/2022 at 12:55 PM, David Holman said:

The standard RCH tank wagon is one of very few common to both sides of the water and lasted from the early 1900s into the 1960s.

@David Holman, would you be able to point me to a reference source with drawings or photos about this Railway Clearing House tank wagon?  Or a kit source?  I'm a rank amateur learner.

[NorthWallDocker]

On 2/2/2022 at 5:29 PM, Killian Keane said:

Aye, the DSER bought 6 of them in 1902, London Road Models make a kit of them (as well as, incidentally, the 'Special Tanks' of the same design as used on the Dundalk Newry and Greenore Rly)

 

@Killian Keane, which London Road Models loco kit matches the "special tanks" on the Dundalk Newry and Greenore Railway?  Or which British railway's loco design matched the DN & G - one of the L&NWR kits from London Road Models?  

[Killian Keane]

20 minutes ago, NorthWallDocker said:

@Killian Keane, which London Road Models loco kit matches the "special tanks" on the Dundalk Newry and Greenore Railway?  Or which British railway's loco design matched the DN & G - one of the L&NWR kits from London Road Models?  

The Crewe Special tanks and the 4' 6" mansion house tanks, but I have a feeling in the case of the Greenore saddle tanks the Irish locos had larger driving wheels than their English counterparts, don't know off the top of my head though

[NorthWallDocker]

1 minute ago, Killian Keane said:

The Crewe Special tanks and the 4' 6" mansion house tanks, but I have a feeling in the case of the Greenore saddle tanks the Irish locos had larger driving wheels than their English counterparts, don't know off the top of my head though

Ah, thank you.  That helps me focus on the little details, and how they compare.  (Now where did I put my DN&G book....)

[minister_for_hardship]

I wonder why in the 1:1 world, why didn't more selling and regauging go on between Britain and Ireland? Could have made things easier for us!

Edited July 8 by minister_for_hardship

[Killian Keane]

Ive just checked my reference material and the July 1939 Locomotive magazine states the Greenore saddle tanks had 5' 2 1/2" drivers, Wikipedia states the Crewe locos as having 4' 5 1/2" drivers, both classes are derived from the famous DX series, so if the Irish locos have the same wheelbase as a DX Id be quite interested in Cadding one to 3d print if anyone has drawings

[gibbo675]

2 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I wonder why in the 1:1 world, why didn't more selling and regauging go on between Britain and Ireland? Could have made things easier for us!

On the subject of re-gauging, I wonder what may have happened if it was the track that had been re-gauged rather than locomotives and stock. The Great Western Railway managed 3000 miles in a weekend...... or so we are told.

Gibbo.